Backstory/Gameplay

[svenskmand]

The story should have enough internal logic to make it believable. And important events/artifacts should have explanations, like why the dungeon temple exitst (we have defined that) and why there is portals (we have not solved this issue yet :S )

I also favor that the Corpars is named the Corpars and not Keepers, as I think this refers too much to DK. By the way why should the Corpars eat corpses? They are not undead, I think that only the undead should do that.

It is nicely merged into the story though But we could change the explanation so that the humans made/heard rumors that the Corpars eat their victims - hence the name - but that this is in fact not true and only a rumor. I like that explanation much better

[Keldaryth]

By the way why should the Corpars eat corpses? They are not undead, I think that only the undead should do that.

It is nicely merged into the story though But we could change the explanation so that the humans made/heard rumors that the Corpars eat their victims - hence the name - but that this is in fact not true and only a rumor. I like that explanation much better

Well the undead don't eat the corpses, they use them to make more undead (unless we're including ghouls who probably don't get on with the animated undead who they'd view as a food source).

My original intent was to have it as a human misnomer, but it makes sense, and the original storyline had them eating corpses so I retained it, just gave it a meaningful function. Also, while I have no issues with the humans calling the Corpars Corpars based off the eating of Corpses (real or rumored) the fact remains that the Corpars will not call themselves by that name as it is a human term in a human tongue most probably don't speak and even if they do I don't see why they'd name themselves after eating corpses (real or rumored). Like I said, I made names up at random and Keepers of the earth is the best I could do at 5 AM. I'm perfectly happy for them to have a different name, but given the disparate rag tag group of creature they're currently saddled with they need something to bind them all together and something like 'Klan' doesn't quite cut it.

I suppose we could change their creature list or give them a name like 'Defenders of Gaia', but I wanted something a little more underground, earthy, underdarkish... and yes, dungeon keeperish. Defenders of Gaia sounds too much like elves in forests. So yeah - new name, totally on board, please find one . I just feel that the Corpars logically won't call themselves that.

[svenskmand]

I like the name Corpars, and I think most other people in here do to. But we could change the reason for the name, as I recall we did not give any reason for it. But is it necessary to have a reason for a name? They could just have named them self that as we have named ourself humans or homo sapiens.

Regarding the creature list I do not think anybody likes it much, I certainly do not, it is a wild zoo of different creatures for most of the factions, and as I recall it was AlienWolf (the former coder on the project, form the time before freegamedev.nets servers broke down aka in the old forum) who initially created the lists, and back then they where only place holders and not at all meant to be the final lists. So please suggest other creatures and suggest to throw out the misplaced ones. For once I think that the Hybrid of the Constructs is one of the most misplaced, as a Cyborg is a sci-fi creature, not a fantasy creatures :S

[andrewbuck]

I will leave the backstory and such to you all to figure it out and stick to the code, I did want to make a post here just to clear up the history of how we got to the state we are in. By no means is this a reason to stick with what we have, I just want you to understand how these things came about as I think it will help guide your decisions a bit in the future.

The original 5 factions (Humans, Undead, Constructs, Dungeon Animals, and the Villains) were the work of AlienWolf, as mentioned above. He made this list and a preliminary list of creatures on the old forum. I copied this list to the wiki and sometime later AlienWolf left (actually he may have left before that but its not particularly relevant). Since then we have added a few creatures, dropped some others and rearranged it a bit, but it is mostly the original list. Later on, it was suggested that the villians be dropped, and the dungeon animals were renamed to the Corpars. I think the fact that they eat the corpses was a holdover from the time when they were known as the dungeon animals.

By the way, welcome to the forum Keldaryth. I was going to say hi when you introduced yourself in the "Where do you live" thread but I didn't want to clutter up that thread since it is nice to have just an uninterrupted list of where everyone is.

-Buck

[Keldaryth]

I like the name Corpars, and I think most other people in here do to. But we could change the reason for the name, as I recall we did not give any reason for it. But is it necessary to have a reason for a name? They could just have named them self that as we have named ourself humans or homo sapiens.

The issue with the term 'Corpars' is that it's not evocative. An uninitiated person looks at the word and goes 'what the hell does that mean'?

Everyone understands what a human is - or even a fantasy human. Most of us can grasp the broad notions of a construct a golem or an undead creature. Most of us understand what a fantasy 'dungeon monster' is going to be. Forgetting all the backstory and everything that has been created, what would be the first thing that comes to mind when someone says, 'oh and we have a the faction of Corpars'.

Given that I knew it was a fantasy setting, I immediately thought Coprolite - and extended it to Coprophages - animals that eat poo. Personally, I'd rather avoid the image of goblins eating poo. Without setting knowledge, I might have gone with 'Corporations'.

I know that this may be atypical, but the point is that the term 'corpar' doesn't seem to have any historical significance that we can draw from, nor any resonance with the game world itself. The best I could come up with, given that the history as it was written was completely human centric and there are no references to any of the Deep Dwellers even being spoken with, the inferral was that corpar was a name given by humans, so I went with that. I was trying to stretch it to 'Corsairs' but it didn't gel, so ended up going with 'corpse'.

My approach to the project has been to preserve what has come before and just to tighten it to make it more cohesive and less 'good and evil' for the main factions. I have no qualms about throwing everything out and redoing it, but I thought it best to work with what has been provided.

Still, my concern is that the term Corpar is unevocative, regardless of how much we hang off it. As a nickname given by humanity, it's a nice insight into the culture of the human civilisation we're building, but it reveals nothing about the creatures below - which is why I suggested they need to call themselves something else - Keepers of the Earth immediately gives them a purpose: they guard the earth and keep it safe. Immediately, they have a purpose and a mission. Deep Dwellers works too, because it describes where they live, which is also a unifying factor - subterranean races banding together to repel the surface invasion. I had the term 'Underground Alliance' running through my head, but that sounded way too WoW for my liking. It also conjures up an image of a small band of surfacers objecting to the invasion of the underworld and taking up arms with the dungeon creatures to repel their fellows - a nice one off scenario perhaps, but not really a name for those that dwell below.

Does that make any more sense?

[svenskmand]

Your right that the current story is centered at the humans, and the events in their history led to the creation of the undead and the constructs. And their interaction with the corpars, but to me the corpars are much older than the human civilization in Evariar, and so are the elves that I want to introduce as a new force. We would need to write a back story for these two forces also, and here we could give an explanation for the name of the corpars. Or if someone can come up with a better name we could give them that an then the humans can just refer to them as the corpars in a condescending manner. I also wanted to introduce a mercenary/villain force (again), and they also need a story, but they will probably be some of the more criminal types from some of the other factions (humans, elves and corpars), an maybe some new creatures also, coming from the wild maybe.

[Keldaryth]

That's what I mean

I'm perfectly happy with those ideas for the Corpars, because that's exactly how I see it. I love the fact that the humans call them corpars in a derogatory fashion, but I just want something for them to call themselves - whatever it is.

What sort of elves are you going for? Tolkienesque or the more traditional scary elves that destroy everything and steal things like babies? Personally I'd love to go with a darker elf force - more like the ones Pratchett writes.

I'm going to go and see if I can put in some neutral underground denizens - creatures who can just inhabit the level without being part of a 'faction'. If nothing else it gives the Corpars things to hunt and undead creatures to buid with.

[svenskmand]

That's what I mean

Cool

What sort of elves are you going for? Tolkienesque or the more traditional scary elves that destroy everything and steal things like babies? Personally I'd love to go with a darker elf force - more like the ones Pratchett writes.

I was hoping for both, so the humans might sometimes align themself with the "good"/white elves and the darker elves might sometimes join the mercenaries, unded or corpars.

[Keldaryth]

I was hoping for both, so the humans might sometimes align themself with the "good"/white elves and the darker elves might sometimes join the mercenaries, unded or corpars.

I'd rather have one sort that has elements of both. I like the idea of elves as a society based around nature, which means they'd get on fantastically with the Corpars and would tolerate some humans. I doubt they'd take to undead other than as tools though, even the darker elves have not traditionally had much use for them. Still.

[svenskmand]

Regarding the corpars I see them as a race which is a mixture between demons, goblins, orks and trolls. They are very greedy -- they live and breath for gold -- and they are very ruthless. They have overlords (many) which are constantly battling for power and territory, which is also why the invented the dungeon temple for a overlord to become a demigod with all the powers (and weaknesses) that brings.

[Keldaryth]

I guess I don't see them as that 'greedy' in terms of gold. I see them as valuing the gold and gems as they are - in the earth which they revere and defend. I definitely see them as ruthless and I see them as clannish - with constantly shifting alliances and the like. I think they have a shared set of beliefs, but disagree on how best to interpret/defend those beliefs and the earth goddess. I guess I don't see them as demonic. Possibly because I really would like to create a race of creatures that are not inherently evil so that the humans can't claim to be superior and right simply on the basis that they are 'demons' and be correct.

[svenskmand]

Just because they are demons does not mean that the humans are "correct", there is not right and wrong other than what you thing yourself. So if the Corpars thinks that they are right in what they are doing then they are, and nothing can change their mind.

[Keldaryth]

Maybe not, but again I come back to the notion of player expectation. Players generally equate demonic with 'evil and must be squashed' which justifies whatever the humans do to destroy them in the eyes of the player. By removing the explicitly demonic part, we remove that part of the association and make the entire thing more grey area.

[svenskmand]

I think that is a wrong impression, take the good old DK and DK2, the slogan was it is good to be bad and the player controlled the evil forces, and destroyed the humans, and I am pretty sure that all people who liked DK and DK2, liked that the games was like that. It will be the same here.

Also I do not think that we should make the game a "gray area" that is boring, the player should have the freedom to choose for himself what he wants to do. And I assure you the majority of players will not plays as the Humans because they are "good".

[Keldaryth]

I thought the idea was to make a game inspired by but not a clone of DK? I played and play DK because I liked the gameplay and the option to play as the non hero. I also liked the notion that it turned the idea of heroes going dungeon crawling on its head.

However, what has been written in the backstory is not condusive to this style of play (and that's true even before I tinkered with it), because it created a group of creatures and sent the humans in after them as part of a war. It's no longer a bunch of adventurers going in and wrecking the homes of innocent subterranean creatures (which is what I liked about the DK idea), but about a full scale assault by the surface world because they wanted resources.

If it's going to be about one realm invading the other, not just a group of adventurers, and the ability to play across all of the spectrum, with more than two 'factions' then each faction needs to have a firm place in the world and relations with the other faction and each creature within that faction needs the same. This is why a grey area is needed and very enjoyable. A *player* can be as nice or as nasty as he or she desires. The creatures in their factional societies need to be that though - creatures in societies. Okay, the undead don't have much of that, but that's the undead...

The point of the system I'm trialling is that in a freeform game, a player will be able to recruit from any and all factions to form a unique mix of creatures that may or may not get along. Some creatures will love being around other creatures who hate them and so on.

[svenskmand]

I thought the idea was to make a game inspired by but not a clone of DK? I played and play DK because I liked the gameplay and the option to play as the non hero. I also liked the notion that it turned the idea of heroes going dungeon crawling on its head.

Indeed it is, I just pointed out that people will of course play using all the different factions and creatures.

However, what has been written in the backstory is not condusive to this style of play (and that's true even before I tinkered with it), because it created a group of creatures and sent the humans in after them as part of a war. It's no longer a bunch of adventurers going in and wrecking the homes of innocent subterranean creatures (which is what I liked about the DK idea), but about a full scale assault by the surface world because they wanted resources.

Which style of play? The humans have not been sent after the Corpars to kill them just because they can or like to. The humans explorered the mines/caves and the Corpars killed them, if the Corpars where innocent they would not have killed the explorers in the first place, they would have told them that the Corpars live in the mines and that the humans where not allowed to take their ressources.

If it's going to be about one realm invading the other, not just a group of adventurers, and the ability to play across all of the spectrum, with more than two 'factions' then each faction needs to have a firm place in the world and relations with the other faction and each creature within that faction needs the same. This is why a grey area is needed and very enjoyable. A *player* can be as nice or as nasty as he or she desires. The creatures in their factional societies need to be that though - creatures in societies. Okay, the undead don't have much of that, but that's the undead...

The point of the system I'm trialling is that in a freeform game, a player will be able to recruit from any and all factions to form a unique mix of creatures that may or may not get along. Some creatures will love being around other creatures who hate them and so on.

Well the player should not always be allowed to recruit all creatures, hes alignment in the game should determine which creatures he is allowed to recruit (allowed should be read as: the creatures are willing to join the keeper), but he can off course change his alignment gradually during the course of the game and or several multi-player matches.

[Keldaryth]

Which style of play? The humans have not been sent after the Corpars to kill them just because they can or like to. The humans explorered the mines/caves and the Corpars killed them, if the Corpars where innocent they would not have killed the explorers in the first place, they would have told them that the Corpars live in the mines and that the humans where not allowed to take their ressources.

Exactly - neither one can be said to be 'right' or completely innocent, which is great. Of course, even if the corpars HAD done that, I think it unlikely the humans would have acquiesed. Our own history is testament to that. The style of play I was referring to was the 'play as the evil underlord' concept is slightly at odds with the way the mythology of the world was set up, but is still technically possible.

Well the player should not always be allowed to recruit all creatures, hes alignment in the game should determine which creatures he is allowed to recruit (allowed should be read as: the creatures are willing to join the keeper), but he can off course change his alignment gradually during the course of the game and or several multi-player matches.

Yes. That's the way the system is designed to work, although I'd give multiplayer players a chance to design their own alignment/faction starting factors if desired. The willingness of a creature to join is based on: Are my fundamental (room) needs being met? yes/no?
If no: I will not join.
If yes, I will consider joining, the probability of which is based on how I feel about the player's current faction make up and alignment.

[svenskmand]

Anybody have ideas for why and how the portals have come into existence, like we have done with the dungeon hearth which we have now dubbed the dungeon temple?

[Keldaryth]

Yep.

But they're still in their infancy and need to be developed. Right now they're not making complete sense even to me .I'd like to play a bit with the dungeon temple too, possibly tie it all in together. I'll try to post some ideas once I've finished up the creature system.

[svenskmand]

What is the point of this section in the backstory? There is not happening anything :S Why is there a cave/mine that collapses and why is it interesting?

[svenskmand]

I have now finally had time to read your changes to the backsotyr thoroughly, and I have changed some minor things like mistypings and stuff. I have also changed the Corpars description to bring them back to be a race breed from mixes of demons, ogres and trolls. And I have described their society which is divided into casts, with the overlords on the top which are power hungry and greedy warlords.

I do not think that you idea of the Corpars being in touch with nature was in the lines with the original intention with the Corpars, but I think that your ideas could be used for the Elves as they could be a darker version (or just normal version) of elves which still remember their roots with nature, but are more ruthless than normal elves (or just as rutheless as normal elves are).

I have also made room for the Elves and the Mecenaries.

[Keldaryth]

What is the point of this section in the backstory? There is not happening anything :S Why is there a cave/mine that collapses and why is it interesting?

The point of this was to give the factions something other to fight than each other. It allows for a story campaign progression starting out in a pocket of underground survivors. From there, you could allow players to try to reach the surface, reach other survivers, raid the dead for more troops, etc. etc. It also allows us to bring in an unknown quantity (read, future antagonist) for them to fight against and a reason to use any troops they can come across - i.e. a reason to create a dungeon of mixed factions. If you go with the idea of temples being portals and connecting to other temples, you get a structure like:

Mission 1) Claim a Temple
Mission 2) Claim an unused portal and build a temple there
Mission 3) Use the creatures found in mission 2 along with your original faction's 'survivors' (read, creature pool) to reach a goal, eg: find a passage to the surface (for humans), find a way back to an underground city (Corpar), find a site of a mass cave in (undead), find the scattered pieces of shattered constructs (constructs) etc. etc.

And so on.

[Keldaryth]

I do not think that you idea of the Corpars being in touch with nature was in the lines with the original intention with the Corpars, but I think that your ideas could be used for the Elves as they could be a darker version (or just normal version) of elves which still remember their roots with nature, but are more ruthless than normal elves (or just as rutheless as normal elves are).

I have also made room for the Elves and the Mecenaries.

From what I understand the Corpars didn't have an original intention, other than being a handy container for lumping together the standard fantasy dungeon inhabitants into one faction. I'll check over your changes, but if we want to go demonic, I'd want to go seriously demonic. Orcs and Trolls be damned, bring on the denizens of Hell!

I like the idea of hardened wrathful elves wielding the full power of nature's fury, but that's a personal bias. I'm still not sold on mercanaries as a separate force. Possibly we could give some units a mercanary faction rating just to show they're more inclined to hire our their services, but I don't see how making a unique list for them does anything other than give a player an option to go for the mercanary list because they'll get the same units just by paying them gold...

[svenskmand]

The point of this was to give the factions something other to fight than each other. It allows for a story campaign progression starting out in a pocket of underground survivors. From there, you could allow players to try to reach the surface, reach other survivers, raid the dead for more troops, etc. etc. It also allows us to bring in an unknown quantity (read, future antagonist) for them to fight against and a reason to use any troops they can come across - i.e. a reason to create a dungeon of mixed factions.

The role/history of the player is described here -- I am going to merge it with the other backstory page at some point. The idea with this story is that the player is a free agent and all possibilities is open to him. His immediate goal is to get back to his physical form and rejoin his parents, but that might be harder than he thought, and then the story evolves. He can then do missions for each faction and mix and match their creatures based on his alignment. And as he takes on more missions you learn more about each faction, and the player really decides what story is told, see from his perspective.

From what I understand the Corpars didn't have an original intention, other than being a handy container for lumping together the standard fantasy dungeon inhabitants into one faction. I'll check over your changes, but if we want to go demonic, I'd want to go seriously demonic. Orcs and Trolls be damned, bring on the denizens of Hell!

The reason why the Corpars are breed from demons, trolls and orcs is that demons alone are very devious and crafty and will certainly not cooperate with anybody not even their own race. They will try to rule the world by any means necessary -- think of the Goa'uld from Stargate SG-1. So for the Overlords to get their plans turned into reality they need soldiers and slaves, which is why I also mentioned that some of the Corpars have troll and orc blood in their veins -- as trolls and orcs are relatively dum -- the overlords then use some of the other Corpars which are either dumber than themself (so they can manipulate them) or smaller than them self (so they can kick them around) to do their dirty work. Here the overlords are keepers, and they control workers and soldiers, and other creatures, but only very few pure demons (these are hard to control -- think horned reaper from DK1).