Save Snow Peak!

Save Snow Peak!

Postby eltomito » 24 Sep 2020, 00:43

I see there's a lot of hate against the Snow Peak track, because people are saying it doesn't look good enough. Well, IMHO, it's a fantastic online multiplayer track, it has some unique driving qualities, a cool atmosphere, and it should stay in the game.
I wanna save it so that it stays in the main game. But I suck at Blender.
So, is there anyone who would be willing to upgrade Snow Peak, so that its graphics are on par with Black Forest?
I don't need to say Make Snow Peak Great Again, because it's great as it is but Make Snow Peak Acceptable For The Gfx NiItpickers Again!
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Re: Save Snow Peak!

Postby GeekPenguinBR » 24 Sep 2020, 05:39

Do you mean something looking like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFuYnzA8mys

And/or a mixture including landscape from this one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ4ymCNqsT0
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Re: Save Snow Peak!

Postby eltomito » 24 Sep 2020, 06:04

GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:Do you mean something looking like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFuYnzA8mys

And/or a mixture including landscape from this one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ4ymCNqsT0


Sort of but more snow, especially on the road :)
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Re: Save Snow Peak!

Postby kimden » 24 Sep 2020, 08:49

When Snow Peak goes away, I'd miss a bit its true randomness of race results.This is also why I hate it because some players choose it on Ranked too much but those tracks are needed in the game too.

Maybe the gameplay is too easy there but imo a couple of slight changes would be enough to make the first 5 corners not the same left 90° thing, and to make graphics much better. Though I kind of like the new Snow Peak replacement too, but I'm still afraid of lags coming there and possible big gaps on the finish. Don't know which option is better.
One day, I'll put enough checklines on all your tracks.
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Re: Save Snow Peak!

Postby wax » 25 Sep 2020, 07:34

I think a from-scratch replacement is needed because there are too much problems on this track.
Graphics : Compared to the other tracks they are pretty bad. There are also addons with much better graphics. And I don't think it's a good idea to improve them, players choose this track because it's the less laggy track of stk.
Gameplay : One of the worst of stk : a lot of collision problems that make the race unfair, 90% luck dependent in online multiplayer. For the wide-turns, I don't think it's easy for artists to modify them. Also this track is broken, there are 2 shortcuts that save 2-3s in the final time.
So I think it's too much difficult and long to improve snow peak. Not interesting.
And Sven already made a from-scratch replacement as you know.
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Re: Save Snow Peak!

Postby tempAnon093 » 25 Sep 2020, 10:23

While I do think a replacement like Sven's is an improvement, I will miss Snow Peak. I found the track layout very fun and varied.
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Re: Save Snow Peak!

Postby forum » 25 Sep 2020, 14:37

Will this and other "decommissioned" tracks remain available as addons?
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Re: Save Snow Peak!

Postby eltomito » 25 Sep 2020, 15:19

tempAnon093 {l Wrote}:While I do think a replacement like Sven's is an improvement, I will miss Snow Peak. I found the track layout very fun and varied.


Exactly.

forum {l Wrote}:Will this and other "decommissioned" tracks remain available as addons?


They usually do. For example, Green Valley, Blackhill Mansion and several older versions of the farm track are in the addons.

wax {l Wrote}:Gameplay : One of the worst of stk : a lot of collision problems that make the race unfair, 90% luck dependent in online multiplayer

Do you mean the collisions that usually happen right after start? I think it isn't any worse than in The Old Mine or on XR591.
wax {l Wrote}:For the wide-turns, I don't think it's easy for artists to modify them.

What's wrong with the wide turns?
wax {l Wrote}:Also this track is broken, there are 2 shortcuts that save 2-3s in the final time.

I don't know them! Well, that's pretty bad but that could be probably fixed. Also, it's something that gradually appears in many tracks. The tower jump in XR591 is a good example.

The one thing I kind of hate about Snow Peak is that usually, you can only pass other karts in the first half of the track. As soon as you're heading down towards the big snowman by the wooden bridge, I hardly ever manage to pass anyone.
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Re: Save Snow Peak!

Postby wax » 25 Sep 2020, 20:42

Do you mean the collisions that usually happen right after start? I think it isn't any worse than in The Old Mine or on XR591.

No I mean when you slightly touch the wall at these places (and several others) you are projected in the opposite direction.
https://imgur.com/a/UsrKgyt
Here is a fun example https://youtu.be/dKA-_geI-OU?t=27
What's wrong with the wide turns?

What is wrong in the wide turns is that it's kinda boring.
The one thing I kind of hate about Snow Peak is that usually, you can only pass other karts in the first half of the track. As soon as you're heading down towards the big snowman by the wooden bridge, I hardly ever manage to pass anyone.

Actually you have lost the race just after the first gifts :D.
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Re: Save Snow Peak!

Postby eltomito » 25 Sep 2020, 21:55

wax {l Wrote}:
Do you mean the collisions that usually happen right after start? I think it isn't any worse than in The Old Mine or on XR591.

No I mean when you slightly touch the wall at these places (and several others) you are projected in the opposite direction.
https://imgur.com/a/UsrKgyt
Here is a fun example https://youtu.be/dKA-_geI-OU?t=27

The fun example is fun but I don't think there's anything wrong with it: when you drive at full speed on the rock face, you go flying over the mountain but it doesn't help you get anywhere, so no problem.
I don't understand the 3 pictures. What's about to happen there? What are they supposed to illustrate?
And it never happened to me that I'd get propelled in the opposite direction after touching a wall or even driving into it hard. It just sends you flying in the air as I would expect.

wax {l Wrote}:
What's wrong with the wide turns?

What is wrong in the wide turns is that it's kinda boring.

Okay, well, I've never had that feeling.
wax {l Wrote}:
The one thing I kind of hate about Snow Peak is that usually, you can only pass other karts in the first half of the track. As soon as you're heading down towards the big snowman by the wooden bridge, I hardly ever manage to pass anyone.

Actually you have lost the race just after the first gifts :D.


Sadly, that's almost true. Maybe it's because the whole track is pretty narrow so you pay dear for every driving mistake and there are very few nitros.
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Re: Save Snow Peak!

Postby tempAnon093 » 25 Sep 2020, 23:44

forum {l Wrote}:Will this and other "decommissioned" tracks remain available as addons?

I see no reason why not, it's happened with all the past tracks (like Green Valley, recently)
Worst case, you can copy the track folder from STK 1.1 and put it in your add-ons folder, if the creator doesn't immediately upload it themselves.
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Re: Save Snow Peak!

Postby wax » 26 Sep 2020, 07:25

The fun example is fun but I don't think there's anything wrong with it: when you drive at full speed on the rock face, you go flying over the mountain but it doesn't help you get anywhere, so no problem.

No problem, but it means the rock is badly-made in my opinion.
I don't understand the 3 pictures. What's about to happen there? What are they supposed to illustrate?
And it never happened to me that I'd get propelled in the opposite direction after touching a wall or even driving into it hard. It just sends you flying in the air as I would expect.

Fouks has also that kind of issue in his wr video (between 2 and 4s). This happens often to speedrunners/or very good player because we drive near of the wall.
https://videos.supertuxkart.net/videos/ ... ab51245ac2
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Re: Save Snow Peak!

Postby eltomito » 26 Sep 2020, 21:54

wax {l Wrote}:
I don't understand the 3 pictures. What's about to happen there? What are they supposed to illustrate?
And it never happened to me that I'd get propelled in the opposite direction after touching a wall or even driving into it hard. It just sends you flying in the air as I would expect.

Fouks has also that kind of issue in his wr video (between 2 and 4s). This happens often to speedrunners/or very good player because we drive near of the wall.
https://videos.supertuxkart.net/videos/ ... ab51245ac2

I don't see any issue in that video, except that I have to skip forward about 5 seconds to make the video start playing but that's something wrong with the video or the video player.
And the jump is pretty neat, even though it should be probably disabled, because it makes a big part of the track useless. Or you could make it randomly impossible by letting the balloon fly back and forth in that area. That would be very frustrating if you landed next to Tux or Wilber or whoever it is in that balloon :D
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Re: Save Snow Peak!

Postby wax » 27 Sep 2020, 09:47

Are you kidding me? https://imgur.com/a/nE5sP1B Here are some frames. First he hits the wall, then he's projected at the right and fails in water.
For the shortcuts, adding some checkline would be enough.

I still don't think it's interesting to keep this track. There's nothing good there. So a big improvement is needed.
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Re: Save Snow Peak!

Postby Alayan » 27 Sep 2020, 17:20

On the main topic : the gameplay is meh, but it's easy to get a grasp on and the chaotic races (I lost count on getting pushed off-track by a kamikaze out of the first corner) make it appealing to many.

I'm not closing the door to a revamped Snow Peak, but I have little interest in it myself.

kimden {l Wrote}:Maybe the gameplay is too easy there but imo a couple of slight changes would be enough to make the first 5 corners not the same left 90° thing, and to make graphics much better. Though I kind of like the new Snow Peak replacement too, but I'm still afraid of lags coming there and possible big gaps on the finish. Don't know which option is better.


For close races, you need players closely matched in strength (good), tracks that aren't selective (meh) or more raw luck (bad).

If we could get enough players in online to have some ranked servers exclusive to mid-high level players and some exclusive to low level players, it would go a long way. Newbies wouldn't get destroyed by experimented players and give up, experimented players would face slightly stronger competition on average.

The effect with players 2nd and later destroying each other letting the 1st escape more easily needs correction, however. It was tuned down significantly from 0.9.3 to 1.0, but at the time online was in alpha so how bad this can get in competitive multiplayer wasn't known and it was not enough.
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Re: Save Snow Peak!

Postby QwertyChouskie » 27 Sep 2020, 20:54

wax {l Wrote}:Are you kidding me? https://imgur.com/a/nE5sP1B Here are some frames. First he hits the wall, then he's projected at the right and fails in water.
For the shortcuts, adding some checkline would be enough.

I still don't think it's interesting to keep this track. There's nothing good there. So a big improvement is needed.


At least on my system, that part of the video won't play, instead just endlessly buffering. If I download the file and play it it's fine though.
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Save Snow Peek!

Postby Wuzzy » 28 Sep 2020, 18:19

Save Snow Peak!
I absolutely agree!

Also save any other track that is on the brink of deletion. For crying out loud, we're way past 1.0, please stop touching the tracks, already! Even if the existing tracks are not perfect. You're always going to find something to complain about, and I get it. But can we please at least preserve the CORE content of the game?

I'm 100% okay with fixing obvious track bugs like mega shortcuts or surprise collisions or surprise invisible walls, etc. But the existance of these bugs doesn't justify deleting the whole track. Why not just fix the bugs?
Heck, even a graphical remake would be fine with me. A TRUE remake that preserves the track outline, not a completely different track that has nothing do with Snow Peak anymore.

"Replacement" is an euphemism because the replacements are not at all like the track they replace. They have the same general theme, but that's it. It's different graphics and different track design, how can you honestly call it a "replacement"? It's a new and different track, not a replacement. The "replacement" tracks shouldn't even have the same name as the deleted track, as it's very confusing (especially since the deleted tracks go into the add-ons anyway).

See also.
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Re: Save Snow Peak!

Postby SvenAndreasBelting » 28 Sep 2020, 21:28

I don't really understand why so many people don't like that tracks will be replaced with newer/better ones.
since STK exists this is how it goes, new tracks will replace old tracks, and that's important to continuously improve STK.

And it will still possible to play the track if you want (maybe online it's not that easy but it's theoretically possible).

I get that if you really like a track you wanna keep it.
But there will always be people that want to keep the one track which will be replaced. (I liked a lot of tracks that aren't part of the main game anymore)
And if somebody will improve the track back to main game standards that's a good thing for sure.

Wuzzy {l Wrote}:Also save any other track that is on the brink of deletion. For crying out loud, we're way past 1.0, please stop touching the tracks, already! Even if the existing tracks are not perfect. You're always going to find something to complain about, and I get it. But can we please at least preserve the CORE content of the game?

I'm 100% okay with fixing obvious track bugs like mega shortcuts or surprise collisions or surprise invisible walls, etc. But the existance of these bugs doesn't justify deleting the whole track. Why not just fix the bugs?
Heck, even a graphical remake would be fine with me. A TRUE remake that preserves the track outline, not a completely different track that has nothing do with Snow Peak anymore.

"Replacement" is an euphemism because the replacements are not at all like the track they replace. They have the same general theme, but that's it. It's different graphics and different track design, how can you honestly call it a "replacement"? It's a new and different track, not a replacement. The "replacement" tracks shouldn't even have the same name as the deleted track, as it's very confusing (especially since the deleted tracks go into the add-ons anyway).


Well for all 1.X releases the tracks will stay the same.

But after that I completely disagree. For what reason should there be no new tracks in the game?
As I said, that's one important way to improve STK, and of course every track could be improved from time to time, but for me as an artist I want to decide by myself if I want to improve an track or make an completely new one.
And if the new tracks are better than the old ones than why the hell shouldn't they replace them.

However at the end the core team has to decide which tracks will be in the main game.
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Re: Save Snow Peak!

Postby eltomito » 28 Sep 2020, 21:53

SvenAndreasBelting {l Wrote}:... And if somebody will improve the track back to main game standards that's a good thing for sure.


That's exactly the point of this thread: to find someone who has not only the passion and the burning desire to keep Snow Peak in the main game but also the Blender and Gimpin' skills to make it actually happen! So, who's gonna save Snow Peak?
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Re: Save Snow Peek!

Postby QwertyChouskie » 28 Sep 2020, 23:22

Wuzzy {l Wrote}:The "replacement" tracks shouldn't even have the same name as the deleted track, as it's very confusing (especially since the deleted tracks go into the add-ons anyway).


I can't think of any recent track replacements that have had the same name.

- Jungle -> Cocoa Temple
- Island -> Gran Paradiso Island
- Shiny Suburbs -> Candela City
- Bovine Barnyard -> Cornfield Crossing
- Blackhill Mansion -> Ravenbridge Mansion (an excellent example of a track that was fundamentally broken and certainly needed more than a re-skin, and also the replacement track pulling some driveline inspiration from the original where possible [the winding road up to the mansion])
- Green Valley -> Black Forest
The only notable driveline change to existing tracks since 0.9 is the revamp of Oliver's Math Class in 0.9.1, which included a small additional section; everything else was small improvements/bugfixes to the existing tracks, or track replacements with new names as expected.
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Re: Save Snow Peek!

Postby tempAnon093 » 30 Sep 2020, 00:58

Wuzzy {l Wrote}:See also. - "You're way past version 1.0 right now, PLZ stop screwing around with the content, already. You're destroying history!"

It's not destroying history at all. Just download the old track from the addons when it's taken from core. You can play addon tracks online.
If I'm not mistaken, every single example track in the post above is available in the addons library.

I don't like the new interface (no offense intended, I've seen overall positive reactions to it) but STK devs left the old ones in there. I just use them now. They aren't erasing history by changing defaults to ones that other people like!

Wuzzy {l Wrote}:But the existance of these bugs doesn't justify deleting the whole track. Why not just fix the bugs?

Fixing the bugs still leaves the track layout the same. Many have issues with the layout (I like it but that doesn't mean it can't be improved). If we never substituted old core tracks with new tracks, we'd be left with some poorly designed circuits which would give a worse experience, even if they hypothetically had 0 bugs. Why limit the game's core potential by what one or two artists made years ago?

Wuzzy {l Wrote}:I'm afraid, in 5 years, SuperTuxKart will probably be wildly different from what we had at version 1.0, but it is still called "SuperTuxKart" for some reason

Well I never played 0.8.2 but I'm sure that was wildly different. The maps probably weren't designed to be a final product at 1.0, so using that as an arbitrary finish line is silly (in fact, I recall it was originally not going to be called 1.0). Like Qwerty said in that thread you linked, and like Sven already said, it looks like it would be versioned 2.0 if any core tracks are completely substituted. That seems fair to me.
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Re: Save Snow Peek!

Postby Alayan » 30 Sep 2020, 06:35

Wuzzy {l Wrote}:Save Snow Peak!
I absolutely agree!

Also save any other track that is on the brink of deletion. For crying out loud, we're way past 1.0, please stop touching the tracks, already! Even if the existing tracks are not perfect. You're always going to find something to complain about, and I get it. But can we please at least preserve the CORE content of the game?

I'm 100% okay with fixing obvious track bugs like mega shortcuts or surprise collisions or surprise invisible walls, etc. But the existance of these bugs doesn't justify deleting the whole track. Why not just fix the bugs?
Heck, even a graphical remake would be fine with me. A TRUE remake that preserves the track outline, not a completely different track that has nothing do with Snow Peak anymore.

"Replacement" is an euphemism because the replacements are not at all like the track they replace. They have the same general theme, but that's it. It's different graphics and different track design, how can you honestly call it a "replacement"? It's a new and different track, not a replacement. The "replacement" tracks shouldn't even have the same name as the deleted track, as it's very confusing (especially since the deleted tracks go into the add-ons anyway).

See also.


Old SuperTuxKart versions with the old tracks, old gameplay, old karts, old physics, old UI, old bugs, old everything... remain available. You can download STK 0.4, 0.5, 0.6, and so on without any issue whenever you want. This is the history you are looking for.

Though online wasn't there until 1.0, STK had arguably been in production stage many years before with public releases played by tens of thousands of players. 1.x instead of 0.x didn't fundamentally change the STK development process.

I have taken a stance against adding and removing tracks every few months in versions that have little changes, as it cause issues for online compatibility and break records. But 2.0 will break compatibility, and so the more tracks that can be improved, revamped, or replaced, the better. We are not working with a maximum number of tracks in mind, if there is enough high-quality tracks to have 24 or 25 in STK 2.0, then we will have that. But it's important to ensure we raise the bar on both graphics quality and gameplay value. The quality of SuperTuxKart tracks overall is rather uneven, owing to the development process over many years. Consistency means we don't have the odd track that stands out as poor.

A replacement track is not meant to share the old track's driveline. It's meant to ensure we don't end up with less tracks than we had before. I would take an urban circuit just as gladly to replace Snow Peak if it has the required quality. It's nice if the different tracks have their own personality and cover different themes, but there is no strict requirement on what themes should be covered.
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Re: Save Snow Peak!

Postby eltomito » 30 Sep 2020, 20:32

For starters, somebody could take Sven's textures from his new snow track and see if they would make Snow Peak look better.
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Re: Save Snow Peak!

Postby fracture » 30 Sep 2020, 21:13

eltomito {l Wrote}:For starters, somebody could take Sven's textures from his new snow track and see if they would make Snow Peak look better.


It's going to take more than textures to make Snow Peak look good, such as improving the graphics and removing all the polygonal curves and shit. Even then it's still a pretty weak track. Do we really need two snow tracks (Snow Peak, Northern Resort)? two desert tracks (Shifting Sands, Hacienda)? two beach tracks (Volcan Island and Gran Paradisio Island)? At least the two desert and beach tracks are different in ways but Snow Peak and Northern Resort are pretty much the same except one is at night.
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Re: Save Snow Peek!

Postby fracture » 30 Sep 2020, 21:36

Alayan {l Wrote}:We are not working with a maximum number of tracks in mind, if there is enough high-quality tracks to have 24 or 25 in STK 2.0, then we will have that. But it's important to ensure we raise the bar on both graphics quality and gameplay value. The quality of SuperTuxKart tracks overall is rather uneven, owing to the development process over many years. Consistency means we don't have the odd track that stands out as poor.

A replacement track is not meant to share the old track's driveline. It's meant to ensure we don't end up with less tracks than we had before. I would take an urban circuit just as gladly to replace Snow Peak if it has the required quality. It's nice if the different tracks have their own personality and cover different themes, but there is no strict requirement on what themes should be covered.


Is bigger better, or is better better? 2.0 would be better off if you all focused on revamping all the shit tracks before making new ones, and if there are new tracks, they should at least have some original idea or gimmick to make it it's own thing (and not a ripoff of a Mario Kart track). The only addon tracks that I think are good enough to where they should be in the main game (if given graphical overhauls) are Paradise Peaks, Green Valley, and Lost Chasm. Green Hill is a decent track but it's branching paths make it too similar to Black Forest. Nostalgia and The Cube are two of my favorites but are obviously not fit for a main game and are better off as addons (although I like how The Cube has several paths similar to N64 Yoshi Valley. That's a good idea. Have a track in the main game with 3-4 different paths, including a very long and easy path, and then a short but difficult path).

If you saw my ranking of all the tracks, Snow Peak was one of the worst. I think it needs to be replaced. For those who want the historical tracks, they can download an addon, because removed tracks and older versions almost always become addons, and if they don't, people can always play older versions.

An urban circuit would be a good idea for a track. Ever since I first played this game I've been waiting for a track with actual traffic similar to N64 Toad's Turnpike, where players must dodge the cars (and in reverse mode, the cars come towards you). I'm assuming the reason this hasn't happened yet is because of limitations with the game's engine? Can it not display that many moving vehicles?
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