[Map] Quaternion, prototype version 0.2.5.6.7.2

[Map] Quaternion, prototype version 0.2.5.6.7.2

Postby Dratz-_C » 07 Sep 2012, 01:04

Hi folks,
Image:
Image
Map:
quaternion 0-2-5-6-7-2
Map Music:
quaternion.ogg
Changelog
{l Code}: {l Select All Code}
0.2.5.6.7.2...Added 4 sets of lateral platform supports to the team bases
0.2.5.6.6.....Added prettier supports to neutral base level 2
0.2.5.6.5.....Added prettier supports to neutral base level 1
0.2.5.6.4.....Made more effective use of particles on half the diabase paths
0.2.5.6.3.3...Constructed a game-type- and mutator- specific diamond of paths to rockets and other bases
0.2.5.6.2.....Separated defend-the-flag and bomberball rocket locations, fixed some paste-stripped model attributes
0.2.5.6.1.....Replaced one-way geometry with death material; bodies still spiral into the cyclone
0.2.5.6........Fixed most affinities and alpha, Kappa and Sigma entity links
0.2.5.5.9.5...Added oneways to keep people who should spiral to death from momentum bouncing around
0.2.5.5.9.4...Moved 4 ffa deathmatch spawns to match center geometry
0.2.5.5.9.3...Fixed 2 vortex pusher yaws
0.2.5.5.9.2...Made center prettier and added appropriate weapons
0.2.5.5.8.....Reworked center for framerate
0.2.5.5.7.....Fixed most Omega entity links
0.2.5.5.6.....Fixed Kappa textures
0.2.5.5.5.....Copy-pasted Kappa and Sigma base geometry and entities
...
0.2.5.5.4.6...Possibly found a game bug where bomberball goal overrides gauntlet goal
I think this bit is part of the bug that Ulukai found: http://forum.freegamedev.net/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=4473
0.2.5.5.4.5...Added gauntlet area, spawns and affinities
0.2.5.5.4.4...Added teleport sounds
0.2.5.5.4.3...Added pusher sounds and alert trim
0.2.5.5.4.2...Enlarged sun flare
0.2.5.5.4.1...Removed spawnmarks
0.2.5.5.4.....Created a touchdown bomberball route that could be completed in one run
0.2.5.5.3.....Added more fast pushers of a new design and retrofitted old ones
0.2.5.5.2.....Readjusted teleport radii to match new behavior in "Elara Edition"
0.2.5.5.1.....Tested "Elara Edition's" changed bomberball throw distance
0.2.5.5.0.....Tested 2 more different looks for the fast pushers
0.2.5.4.9.....Added fast pushers to bottom level of base(s)
0.2.5.4.8.....Retextured trim, and resized and lit close-view signs
0.2.5.4.7.....Retextured bevels and alpha base interior; added music, team symbol models
0.2.5.4.6.....Tweaked sound effects and replaced spikes with counterpushers
0.2.5.4.5.....Incorporated spikes to prevent cheating with pushers
0.2.5.4.4.....Placed centerbase and alphabase ambient sound effects
0.2.5.4.3.....Added teleport generator shafts, retextured last spots in alpha base
0.2.5.4.2.....Added mines to alpha base
0.2.5.4.1.....(Re)textured alpha base interior, texturecull
0.2.5.4.0.....Grounded the bomberball, (re)textured alpha base exterior
0.2.5.3.......Added clipbox for jetpack mutator, experimented for Red Eclipse skybox
0.2.5.2.9.....Changed all 45° groundpitches to 22.5°, added ladders, tweaked pushers
0.2.5.2.8.....Ambient set from 555555 to 393939, changed background for affinity waysigns
0.2.5.2.7.....Adjusted from 3 to 0.5 specular on jojo/concrete textures
0.2.5.2.6.....Fixed errors found in playtesting
0.2.5.2.5.....Readded only the necessary affinity signage
0.2.5.2.4.....Textured all center area blank spaces
0.2.5.2.3.....Textured all blank Kappa and Sigma spaces
0.2.5.2.2.....Textured all blank Alpha and Omega spaces
0.2.5.2.1.....Scrapped ornamentation to reboot the framerate
0.2.5.2.......Added grass- and martian-rock-styled pathings
0.2.5.1.......Added gold- and ice-themed and greymetal pathings
0.2.5.0.......Added affinity waysigns
0.2.4.9.......Placed weapon waysigns on floors
0.2.4.8.......Made weapon and affinity waysigns using setshader decalworld
0.2.4.7.......Improved skybox and added SVN sparkle-sunflare
0.2.4.6.......Various modespawns and progress with bomberball
0.2.4.5.......Changed skylight and sunlight
0.2.4.4.......Added sunlight entity
0.2.4.3.......Changed cloudlayer to cover spinning sun
0.2.4.2.......Added skybox, removed the waypoints
0.2.4.1.......Experimented with skybox
0.2.4.........A prototype

I have put together what I think is a better basic design of raiden's "Cutec" which I am calling "Quaternion" for now so that we can tell the difference between the two approaches. My aim is an efficient, elegant design encouraging 4-base multi and depth in all playmodes.
Cheers
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Re: [Map] Qutek, prototype version 0.2.4

Postby raiden » 07 Sep 2012, 16:20

I'm sorry, but my pc strikes at the moment. So I can't review or test anything. I hope this will change soon.
One question: why do you want to change the main layout again? I was pleased by the old one personaly. Besides that thank you for your engagement.
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Re: [Map] Qutek, prototype version 0.2.4

Postby Karoushi » 07 Sep 2012, 17:51

raiden {l Wrote}:I'm sorry, but my pc strikes at the moment. So I can't review or test anything. I hope this will change soon.
One question: why do you want to change the main layout again? I was pleased by the old one personaly. Besides that thank you for your engagement.


I just posted my edition of your map in that other thread where you asked me to look at it...

viewtopic.php?f=74&t=3446#p34513
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Re: [Map] Qutek, prototype version 0.2.4

Postby Dratz-_C » 07 Sep 2012, 20:26

Hi raiden,
While I was intent on producing a map with a low count of octree nodes I decided to implement an idea of mine about facing what will be the detailed areas of the bases 180 degrees away from eachother. Using the advantage of good occlusion I then decided to ready the design for multi by adding two more bases. The detailed areas of these bases are also occluded at 90 degrees from the original 2. So designed-in performance from the start of the creating the map and versatility of playing modes are my reasons. I chose to make the capture-the-flag and bomberball routes longer, including when folks use the inter-base teleports, which I think makes these modes more fun. I also added more defend-the-flag affinities which I think will up the enjoyment.
Cheers
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Re: [Map] Qutek, prototype version 0.2.4

Postby Karoushi » 07 Sep 2012, 23:04

Dratz-_C {l Wrote}:Hi raiden,
While I was intent on producing a map with a low count of octree nodes I decided to implement an idea of mine about facing what will be the detailed areas of the bases 180 degrees away from eachother. Using the advantage of good occlusion I then decided to ready the design for multi by adding two more bases. The detailed areas of these bases are also occluded at 90 degrees from the original 2. So designed-in performance from the start of the creating the map and versatility of playing modes are my reasons. I chose to make the capture-the-flag and bomberball routes longer, including when folks use the inter-base teleports, which I think makes these modes more fun. I also added more defend-the-flag affinities which I think will up the enjoyment.
Cheers


You should ask the author first though, it seems kind of rude even though you are just trying to improve it! :P
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Re: [Map] Qutek, prototype version 0.2.4

Postby Dratz-_C » 08 Sep 2012, 03:33

Karoushi,
raiden placed Cutec under the creative commons attribution license. I have credited raiden in the license for this map also using the same license. That is all that is required to use the existing material and is one reason licenses exist. Qutek is a new map created from scratch. I worked on raiden's Cutec through 19 versions produced in editing sessions that took hours each until the map was evaluated as having a great excess of octree nodes, just over 10 million. I had whittled this down to 9 million. qreeves thought that the excess of octree nodes was the likely cause of some freezes present in play. I decided that another 19 double-hour editing sessions or so to get Cutec down to 5 million octree nodes, if indeed that would be a low enough number, would not be enjoyable for me to do for the present. On September 10th I will be away on vacation until the end of the 15th. I had fun crafting this alternate design as a small gift before I leave, next week. However, the freezes attributed to too many octree nodes in Cutec are present in this built-from-scratch version with just 27,656 octrees nodes. That's far below 10 million, so there must be another factor causing these freezes. Hopefully, equipped with this new information, we will get closer to fixing the freezing problem raiden and I are experiencing.
raiden,
I hope that you find a frugal way to fix your computer so that you can, in addition to your other normal activities, get up and running on editing Cutec again. I am about to leave for a week's vacation. Maybe qreeves can bug eihrul to help him find out how to fix the freezes while I am away touring Washington, D. C.. I thought about asking you whether I could make Qutek but could not wait to apply my ideas. Although I have already received by your license advance permission to adapt your work as long as I clearly credit you, if there are any differences to work out in this matter please forgive me if I have offended you. I just want to create a map that I may play smoothly and have fun in. I'll see you after September 15th!
Cheers
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Re: [Map] Qutek, prototype version 0.2.4

Postby Karoushi » 08 Sep 2012, 03:47

Dratz-_C {l Wrote}:Karoushi,
raiden placed Cutec under the creative commons attribution license. I have credited raiden in the license for this map also using the same license. That is all that is required to use the existing material and is one reason licenses exist. Qutek is a new map created from scratch. I worked on raiden's Cutec through 19 versions produced in editing sessions that took hours each until the map was evaluated as having a great excess of octree nodes, just over 10 million. I had whittled this down to 9 million. qreeves throught that the excess of octree nodes was the likely cause of some freezes present in play. I decided that another 19 double-hour editing sessions or so to get Cutec down to 5 million octree nodes, if indeed that would be a low enough number, would not be enjoyable for me to do for the present. On September 10th I will be away on vacation until the end of the 15th. I had fun crafting this alternate design as a small gift before I leave, next week. However, the freezes attributed to too many octree nodes in Cutec are present in this built-from-scratch version with just 27,656 octrees nodes. That's far below 10 million, so there must be another factor causing these freezes. Hopefully, equipped with this new information, we will get closer to fixing the freezing problem raiden and I are experiencing.
raiden,
I hope that you find a frugal way to fix your computer so that you can, in addition to your other normal activities, get up and running on editing Cutec again. I am about to leave for a week's vacation. Maybe qreeves can bug eihrul to help him find out how to fix the freezes while I am away touring Washington, D. C.. I thought about asking you whether I could make Qutek but could not wait to apply my ideas. Although I have already received by your license advance permission to adapt your work as long as I clearly credit you, if there are any differences to work out in this matter please forgive me if I have offended you. I just want to create a map that I may play smoothly and have fun in. I'll see you after September 15th!
Cheers


viewtopic.php?f=74&t=3446#p34513

Perhaps you should check out the version of cutec that I enhanced @ the above link. I think there was an issue with how the clip box and death material were setup and I redid them, it took the saving/remipping time down from 20.7 seconds to 5.5/5.6 and the maps file size from 5k+ to 3k+. You should check out my optimizations and see if they can apply to "Qutec".

Also I didn't mean to strike a nerve I was just saying that specifically asking the author for permission is just a nice gesture, regardless of license, that's all. :P
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Re: [Map] Qutek, prototype version 0.2.4

Postby raiden » 08 Sep 2012, 11:28

Sadly my pc behaves still strange and unusual. So I can only take short looks into the maps, before I get crashes. I try to find the reason for fixing.
It's ok Dratz, since we have 2 official maps, you can live you up and try your ideas out. I only wanted to know your motivations. Because of the problems we have to keep a look on our version names, to avoid a chaos here.
I think karoushi found out an important thing. I totally lost the focus on the clipping materials. These materials influence the mapfile size indeed and the first hiccups I realized in the past on this map, came after introducing clips together with bot waypoints. So we have a new source to look for issues maybe.
Greetings and thx karoushi also

:::edit::

computer issue: probably fixed now
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Re: [Map] Qutek, prototype version 0.2.4

Postby Dratz-_C » 09 Sep 2012, 19:07

Karoushi,
I looked at your edit of Cutec and it is progress but the play freezes are still there. I examined my map and I had already set mine up similar to your death- and clip-box change. When I made it identical, the octree nodes were not reduced and the file-size stayed the same. This is because I set my airspace up as a plain cube to begin with.
raiden,
I think the freeze problem is being caused not by the presence of the waypoints in themselves but by what the bots do in those waypoint paths. I think that waypoints leading to long distance teleports with pushers sending bots quickly past most of the open map is a likely culprit, particularly when the player is also participating in these rapid push teleports, and possibly in congruence with plain long-distance rapid pushers. It will probably be a week before I post again.
Cheers
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Re: [Map] Qutek, prototype version 0.2.4

Postby Karoushi » 09 Sep 2012, 19:34

Dratz-_C {l Wrote}:Karoushi,
I looked at your edit of Cutec and it is progress but the play freezes are still there. I examined my map and I had already set mine up similar to your death- and clip-box change. When I made it identical, the octree nodes were not reduced and the file-size stayed the same. This is because I set my airspace up as a plain cube to begin with.
raiden,
I think the freeze problem is being caused not by the presence of the waypoints in themselves but by what the bots do in those waypoint paths. I think that waypoints leading to long distance teleports with pushers sending bots quickly past most of the open map is a likely culprit, particularly when the player is also participating in these rapid push teleports, and possibly in congruence with plain long-distance rapid pushers. It will probably be a week before I post again.
Cheers


You know, I never actually play tested the map in an actual game with bots, but as far as I know there weren't any hiccups on my end, perhaps I will test it out and report back.
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Re: [Map] Quaternion, prototype version 0.2.4

Postby Dratz-_C » 19 Sep 2012, 22:38

Hi folks,
I have changed this work's name to Quaternion in order to describe it and eliminate aural confusion with raiden's map, Cutec, which, while similar in flow, is indeed a separate project. I have updated the thread title and my first post to reflect this change.
Cheers
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Re: [Map] Quaternion, prototype version 0.2.4

Postby bonifarz » 20 Sep 2012, 13:40

I would like to note that this name fits very well in my opinion.
Good luck with tracking down and eliminating the freeze problem.
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Re: [Map] Quaternion, prototype version 0.2.4

Postby raiden » 24 Sep 2012, 12:59

Nice name, good luck for this project. The clipping material seems to have a big influence to the performance of the map (especialy the gridsize used for the clips, but also the amount). A careful use makes sense, how I learned now :) .
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Re: [Map] Quaternion, prototype version 0.2.4

Postby Dratz-_C » 19 Oct 2012, 22:17

Hi folks,
My work on this map is slow because I am a student and get to work on class participation, reading, examinations, research and paper writing. I just gimped raiden's skybox from Cutec to Quaternion. That is the limit of my progress. I hope you don't mind my asking you a question, though. I am about to texture most of the map and would like to know what skybox style I should use. After choosing it, I can theme the texturing of the map to match it. Would you like to see a bright skybox? Perhaps you would like me to stay with the Cutec skybox. I am asking this question for three reasons. The first is that many red eclipse map authors are beginning to use the same or similar skyboxes as Cutec and I am worried that players might not like the repetition. The second is whether I should differentiate the identity of Quaternion from Cutec on purpose so one would have an additional motivation to play both maps rather than just one. The last reason is that I have read posts from qreeeves about maps such as Biolytic and Oneiroi being too dark when they were originally submitted for inclusion.
[The image is deprecated ergo deleted.]
I have attached my newest copy of Quaternion to this post. If you experience pauses when you play it, know that I am working on the waypoints based on a suggestion I was able to glean from raiden. The waypoints were causing pauses in Cutec 1.5 which he eliminated for 1.6 by carefully reconstructing the waypoints about a tenth at a time and, when pauses appeared, removing the newest step and either retrying the step or removing that section of the waypoints. For me, I think this will take somewhere between 15 and 20 revisions due to the the additional size compared to Cutec.
quaternion_0-2-4-1.zip

Cheers
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Re: [Map] Quaternion, prototype version 0.2.4.1

Postby raiden » 19 Oct 2012, 23:53

Hey Dratz-_C,
nice to see you spending of your worthwhile time to that project again. My answer is clear: you have all liberties you need. Feel free to find your best variant. It plays no role if you stay close to the original, or if you like to build a complete different version. It's your project and you can take all skyboxes you want :). When I have the time I can answer all questions you may have, but you have complete free hands.
Good luck for this project and keep it up.

Ah, and a bright skybox could be a good idea, why not. The quaternion universe could also be a city in the sky, maybe a kind of cloudcity.

Greet you ;)
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Re: [Map] Quaternion, prototype version 0.2.4.2

Postby Dratz-_C » 03 Nov 2012, 00:28

Hi again folks,
I have decided to try a bright skybox--a kind of Cloud City theme as raiden has suggested. Quaternions have to do with spin so I thought about making a hurricane/typhoon around the map. I think the effect works. The only other thing I could have tried was a spinning galaxy, but that would still have overmuch looked like Cutec which I endeavor to differentiate this map from so that people are willing to play both maps. Changing the environment settings seemed to be the most expedient way to accomplish that differentiation. I have also taken the waypoints out until I am finished with the major texturing which I will begin next.
[The image is deprecated ergo deleted.]
Naturally, here is the map, Quaternion 0.2.4.2.
Quaternion_0-2-4-2.zip

Cheers
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Re: [Map] Quaternion, prototype version 0.2.4.2

Postby D.A.M.I.E.N. » 03 Nov 2012, 02:55

Hello, you should consider one thing, Dratz. Since you have added spinning skybox (looks good how you did that), together with it is moving a light source - the sun. Well, if you would add sunlight entity, then it will become a problem. So on this conditions you can add just a one light entity enough above, but even after this it could still look a bit strange since there are no real-time shadows like that. And one question, why the entrances of bases are from behind? Thanks. I will tell you eventually more when you get this into more advanced phase of mapping.
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Re: [Map] Quaternion, prototype version 0.2.4.2

Postby Dratz-_C » 03 Nov 2012, 07:06

Hi Damien,
I did consider the sun. Regrettably the only cubemap with a storm that I could spin had a sun that was not shining from the zenith. I added a skylight shining straight down as like you describe. I think this lightsource anomaly is on the edge of acceptable, since the light is still coming from the top hemisphere, and is the price I have to pay to use the only cubemap I could find with a spinnable storm. I will experiment with changing the top cloudlayer image to one that looks like a light which may mostly but not entirely cover the differing degree of light in the circumference of the top hemisphere. This arrangement may not look as interesting as the shockball texture that looks like spinning lightening but it may appear more correct regarding how much of the top of the skybox appears illuminated. Conversely, another consideration is that this arrangement would cover over the starry sky from the interstellar cubemap.
The entrances are from behind in order to occlude between what will possibly end up being the more detailed areas of the map. Four detailed areas facing the center would reduce the framerate in areas of primary player traffic by what I estimate to be about 10 a second. Just to to quantify that educated guess, if the rate is 35-25 and it is reduced by 10 it becomes 25-15. One of my core hopes with this project is to have a smooth framerate. Another purpose is to lengthen flag and bomberball paths. Thank you for offering to help me later with the polishing phase.
Cheers
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Re: [Map] Quaternion, prototype version 0.2.4.2

Postby Dratz-_C » 03 Nov 2012, 17:10

Hi again Damien,
Thank you for your advice. I've changed the cloudlayer to cover the spinning sun. It does not look as good but is more consistent. Let me know what you think.
[The image is deprecated ergo deleted.]
Map:
Quaternion_0-2-4-3.zip
[The old problem has been replaced with its solution.] Also, I tried another method of achieving the same result with cloudlayer and envlayer using a special command given to me on irc, cloudlayer "<offset:572,525>skyboxes/stormydays_dn," which has now been aliased to cloudoffsetx and cloudoffsety with the same true for envoffsetx/y.
Cheers
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Re: [Map] Quaternion, prototype version 0.2.4.4

Postby Dratz-_C » 04 Nov 2012, 20:44

Ok folks,
Here is another revision. I have added a sunlight entity.
[The image is deprecated ergo deleted.]
Quaternion_0-2-4-4.zip

Cheers
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Re: [Map] Quaternion, prototype version 0.2.4.4

Postby D.A.M.I.E.N. » 05 Nov 2012, 00:07

When you add sunlight entity, you can put it just on the ground, it hasn't to be so up, it works differently than common light entity. And you can use even lower offset, shadows you can tune up after that with skylight. Light source is unclear, so this look better how you did it. But sunlight is a little too yellow and too strong. Depends on monitor, but if you have correctly set the colors, you should be able to notice it. And by the way, I tried to use skyboxes/stormysky_dn at the bottom and it worked, seems that you have added it anyway.
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Re: [Map] Quaternion, prototype version 0.2.4.6

Postby Dratz-_C » 05 Nov 2012, 21:42

Hello folks,
Here is another version with better sun- and sky-lights, an adjustment for bomber-ball and mode-specific spawns for deathmatch, capture- and defend-the-flag and bomber-ball.
[The image is deprecated ergo deleted.]
Quaternion_0-2-4-6.zip

Cheers
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Re: [Map] Quaternion, prototype version 0.2.4.6

Postby xjojox » 08 Nov 2012, 18:20

I wouldn't use A shaped doorways. not at such an angle. Its easy to get stuck under them. try mirrored V shaped ones. they flow much better.
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Re: [Map] Quaternion, prototype version 0.2.4.6

Postby Dratz-_C » 09 Nov 2012, 02:46

Hi xjojox,
Have you taken a look at how big the frames are when you are standing under one, in addition to looking at the screenshot? If I were to make a double V I would have to double the octree nodes over a single /\. It would also increasingly wall off the middle area from the bases which I think would be less fun. For the present, I will take your suggestion under advisement.
Hi other folks,
Does anyone who has walked under them share xjojox's concern about the diagonal architecture near the jump peninsulas on the perimeter of the center platform? I created them as thematic elements and am reasonable happy with the result, which is why I ask for your assistance in deciding whether there is an issue and, if so, what to do about it.
Cheers
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Re: [Map] Quaternion, prototype version 0.2.4.6

Postby raiden » 09 Nov 2012, 17:57

Hey Dratz, I had a look on your progress. The skybox together with spin and additional layers is a good choice I think. Maybe it spins a bit fast, but this is a question of taste. The sun/skylight fits the box around in a very good way I think. I also like the way you are planning to connect the bases.

One point came into my mind: maybe it could make sense to reduce the amount of tiers of the bases. Just to avoid confusion for players. The texturing will be important probably, to mark on which place the player is located. Lonely because of all the jumpers and portals.

The doorways doesn't disturb me personally until now. To the contrary, I like the chosen texture and the teamcolors on it.
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raiden
 
Posts: 331
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:59
Location: Berlin, Germany

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