[MAP] Canals v1.8

[qreeves]

To put this debate to rest, the question is not a matter of details, it is the level of detail versus the use of occlusion. The Cube Engine relies heavily on the mapper being aware of the proper use of occlusion to hide bits of the map from the player's view, so as to improve performance. There is a fail-safe for this though, if you have an open map and think you can't make it any more occluded, try /genpvs (then go to bed, it'll take a while).

We're not saying you can't have highly detailed, beautiful maps. What we're saying is that if you want to be included in the game you need to make some compromises for this sake. There's nothing worse than starting up a map on a public server and half the players leaving because their frame rate tanks. Unlike the other games people keep mentioning, we actually target lower end hardware on purpose, it gives us a much wider audience and we don't have the luxury of being picky about who can play. Would you rather 40 players online, or only 4?

[Ulukai]

I finished v1.2 and hope this will be the final version. I understand what Quin is saying and of course a map should be enjoyable for as much players as possible. So I made some more changes to hopefully reach this goal.

Download link: http://www.mediafire.com/?ukbdqbw7hm44g3b

- Increased fog level (value 2800 --> 2600).
- Removed the ladders to get out of the water in front of the red and blue bases.
- Changed the terrasses at the red and blue bases to save triangles.

- The middle structure is made higher to block more of the view. The concrete blocks around the canals have been enlarged (and colored) for more occlusion and it hides large areas of the water when running around. These changes have the biggest effect on FPS, it's really noticeable.

This should be it, I can't do much more now I think Please enjoy the map and thanks Quin for helping me with those good tips.

[Dratz-_C]

Hi Ulukai,
Thank you for refining the map for the low-performance crowd. I usually get 19-24FPS while in the center quadrant. This speed is 2 higher than before. I ran into two problems for which I have screenshots. The first is a broken ladder.

canals_1-2_00.jpg

The second is a worst case scenario for framerate with the default number of bots.

canals_1-2_01.jpg

Cheers

[Ulukai]

Do you get stuck every time on that ladder and always on the same spot? Or just occasionally? All the ladders are copies, so it should happen to all or none.
Can you try to climb up in the middle of the ladder, not the sides?

About the framerate: you play on low details I can see, but you still are using a high resolution. Try running in windowed mode and use a lower resolution, that's what I do anyway when I play on a laptop. It then works pretty well, even witht he crappy Intel Linux drivers It's just a tip to help you, you don't have to do anything for me, but resolution has a big impact on framerate.

[Dratz-_C]

Ulukai,
My graphics chip is an nVidia 9300gs. It is geometry limited, not fillrate limited and can do 60FPS at 1080p with vsync on. I have tried lower resolutions but the framerate is always identical. The ladder was clipped at the top. I fixed it and, thanks to qreeves, generated a PVS of size 64 (5400 cells). The map now runs 5 frames faster with the PVS culling. It does make the map 1 megabyte larger but I think it's worth the cost. It is attached.

canals_1-2-1.zip

Cheers

[Ulukai]

Thanks for doing the PVS cull. Have you tried the difference between PVS cull of 32 and 64? And not seen strange side effects?

I'll check your upload this evening (I'm at work right now ) and if everything is working fine I will attach it in my first post.

[Dratz-_C]

Hi Ulukai,
At 32 it resulted in over 10,000 cells, perhaps 15,000 plus, so I used 64 instead. Also, the yellow and green bases are closer to the center and, once in them, easier to score on. They should be the same distance and difficulty to score from the center as the red and blue bases.
Cheers

[Ulukai]

I didn't want to make 4 identical bases, I wanted them to be a bit different but with similar design ideas. Red and blue bases have other routes than green and yellow, it's not all about distance but also how hard it is to escape from a base, defend it, etc. Plus, multi is still played less than normal team games, I wanted to focus more on red and blue so I thought it would be strange to make the yellow and green bases really big when there is nothing to do half of the time. I don't want them to attract players to them in not multi games. I have thought about it before and I think this is the better solution. When I watched some bot matches on Canals, yellow and green have been the winning teams too, it wasn't always red or blue. Imo the balance is OK, I really don't want to make the map even bigger than it is now already. Besides, one time you are blue, next time you might be green. It's fun to have a little variation, that doesn't make each map identical.

[qreeves]

You could set up some doors to only open in multi, set the same flags on the items inside those bases too.

[ballist1c]

You could set up some doors to only open in multi, set the same flags on the items inside those bases too.

+1

Although I think the distance from the kappa and sigma bases should be increased, so all 4 bases are equal length from each other. maybe they could be farther away in CTF mode?

[Ulukai]

Canals v1.3 is here.

Download link: http://www.mediafire.com/?e9l158myp1r15nt

- PVS cull of 64, which ups the general framerate by 5 - 10 FPS. Thanks Quin and Dratz-C for the pointer.
- Clipbox (was already in v1.2 but I forgot to mention it).
- Ladder at the green base is fixed: the accidental clipping has been removed.
- Bomberball has been lowered a tiny bit for easier access for bots. It was too high up in the air.
- Weapons in green and yellow bases only appear in multi now. I should have thought of this before... thx again!

[qreeves]

Feedback:

[Ulukai]

Thank you Quin for the feedback. I have v1.4 uploaded which corrects all your points.

Download link: http://www.mediafire.com/?daatrvbqboro17a

- The doors of the bunkers open to the other sides now. Provided better waypoints for these areas.
- Trim to the borders of the stairs added.
- Corrected the clipping.
- Lined up affinities and weapons.
- Lowered cloudlayer and envlayer.

[D.A.M.I.E.N.]

Few examples, descriptions, rather about texturing. I like the map as complex. Just trying to specify my point of view mentioned before. No need to change your map if you like currect version of course.

[D.A.M.I.E.N.]

the rest

[Ulukai]

Personally I'm pretty pleased with how v1.4 looks and plays, but in the end it'a all just a matter of taste and preference so I welcome your opinion. I don't want to force my opinion on everyone else, so I made some changes to areas where I think your comments are reasonable. On the other hand, I think some of your comments are wrong in which case I didn't change them. Please find attached to this post Canals-v1.4b.zip, I leave it up to you and Quin to choose what you prefer and change the file (or just some textures, as you please) in SVN if you think it's appropriate.

Observed from above, zoomed out, it may look like the map is just floating. I don't have time to do anything about this now anymore because I'm leaving for a holiday in just a few minutes but will try to find a solution after the RE 1.3 release if this bothers people.

Oh and the clipping of the concrete blocks is really necessary, otherwise you can do this, which is even weirder. you can try it for yourself. Also, when in 3rd person view and running on top of the blocks when not clipped, it sometimes looks like you're over the edge too so it doesn't make a big difference.

[D.A.M.I.E.N.]

I think some of your comments are wrong in which case I didn't change them.

Could you specify which comments are wrong? (maybe I didn't describe the issues too well on some pictures because of my english, but I chose examples where for instance wrong texturing is obvious in my opinion)

By the way, instead of clipping it, there exist solution in changing steep of the block a bit if it makes still some issues. (tested)

I just tried to help you with understanding a little bit more the texturing. But if you are pleased with 1.4, I don't see reason why change it then.

[Architect]

this map is awesome

[Ulukai]

Hi everyone. v1.5 is here for your fragging pleasure. It is based on the version in SVN and also needs the SVN client to be able to load the map.

Download link: http://www.mediafire.com/?cy4acc4p05ws404

- I noticed that Jojo made KAPPA and SIGMA textures in SVN, like we had for ALPHA and OMEGA already so I decided to use these for the green and yellow bases instead of the neon squares to consequently use the team symbols.
- I added a fogdome and made the pillars stretch to the ground so that it doesn't look like a floating platform anymore.
- Some minor texture improvements.
- Quin missed a little spot of clipping in the lights of the middle structure when adding the map to SVN, which is now corrected.
- No more pre-rendered PVS cull. With all the changes since v1.0 I had no more improvement in FPS with the PVS system enabled. My framerate seemed more stable without than with the PVS cull and this also cuts the filesize.

Quin: could you review the changes and update the SVN accordingly please?

EDIT: I will provide the PVS culled map as well, those who want can see what performs best in their particular case. It's calculating again now, will upload soon.

[Dratz-_C]

Ulukai,
I'll try it out and see how it performs. Also, if I have time, I have some ideas that I will test.
Cheers

[Ulukai]

For those who want it, here is v1.5 with a PVS cull enabled.

Download link: http://www.mediafire.com/?acf6mmyjynboz9d

[Dratz-_C]

Ulukai,
Thanks for generating the Potential Visibility Set. I was worried about it and began generating my own to find out what my performance difference was, if it existed. I will complete it because it is at size 128 and might reduce the file-size versus size 64, if you have used that size. It looks like it will take a day to do, instead of just a night, which is fine with me. I have a 1.6-gigahertz, Pentium 4 architecture central processor so it usually takes me longer than most folks to generate a PVS.

Also, have you thought about moving the ground closer to the bottom of the stilted play area, greatly reducing the length of the stilts? If the bottom pit is indeed made more shallow, I think as well that it could look better with a solid base. If you are considering it, this recommendation from qreeves for the map Crater might help you.

Try using an "envlayer" with "envlayerheight" set to a negative number; this is a duplicate of "cloudlayer" which allows you to use a texture for something that stretches to the horizon, I use this trick in "tower" for the lava.

[Thanks for telling me that the cell size is the same. I added some top clipping to reduce the cells but I don't know if that will make much difference between the size of the PVSs. If the bottom is raised and clipped near the base of the map and the top is clipped down to about where a double jump rocket would reach from the highest point, the additional clip might substantially reduce the number of PVS cells and thus the map file-size because anything clipped is not filled with PVS cells.]
Cheers

[Ulukai]

I have used size 128 as well, because 64 had too many cells --> too large map. So you can stop your PVS cull

[Ulukai]

I'm sorry for the fast update rate, but when playtesting the version in SVN I bumped into a problem with the affinities. There were double flags in each base when playing multi defend the flag (the CTF flags were used as well, not only the DTF flags), which generated 9 flags instead of 5. This is the only correction to v1.5 and I have left the PVS cull on this time, just to be sure.

Download link: http://www.mediafire.com/?d471obwa5pg2d8v

Note to Quin:
- When you choose a gamemode in SVN and select the third mutator (e.g. DTF with king) but then change your mind and select CTF, the 3rd mutator for CTF is marked as active. Is this on purpose or not? you might want to consider to reset the game mode specific mutators when changing gamemodes because I made some wrong selections because of that. It can get confusing for other players as well.
- Is it correct that Canals is in the rotation for multi DTF but not multi CTF and BB? Or was this because of the affinity problem?

[qreeves]

DTF doesn't *require* the affinities and team playerstarts that CTF/BB does, so it doesn't filter through "multimaps". Oversight on my behalf, adding it to multimaps now. Will have to take a look at that gamespecific mutator thing too, thanks for pointing it out.