Weapon Balance, Functions and Bugs

[inpersona64]

It is questionable whether or not this is appropriate for a "rifle" type weapon.

This is what I meant by my statement above. I mean don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the rifle. I think it's second best weapon in Red Eclipse (the first being the pistol, obviously). But the rifle always seemed more along the lines of a sniper, rather than your average semi-automatic assault rifle, which would most likely be used in all different scenarios. Kind of reminds me of the M14 assault rifle from Call of Duty 4. Now, I obviously don't want to see the rifle changed in any way if it's intention was supposed to be a cross between semi-auto assault rifle and high powered sniper rifle. If the rifle is meant to be the "most versatile" weapon in the game, that's fine. I just figured that, based on the way it was designed, it wasn't supposed to be an all-around weapon for close quarters and long distances alike. But I think that makes it unique in a way. Having the assault rifle and sniper bundled in one weapon does sound cool.

[riidom]

Idea for the rifle (warning, bit weird ):

Introducing a third firemode.

A. Left Mouse, usual shot, but no splash damage.
B. Right Mouse, quick clicked, usual shot with splash damage (like the LMB shot is right now) - and takes two bullets. To make it worth the two bullets, the splash damage parameters needs adjustment maybe.
C. Right Mouse holding pressed (half a second maybe) goes into zoomed mode, then Left Mouse for shot.

This disables quick scoping, not sure if anyone would miss that.

[qreeves]

This disables quick scoping, not sure if anyone would miss that.

They would, people hated "zoomlock" for precisely this reason. (Jump in air, quick-scope target and fire)

[fawstoar]

Crazy idea I'm sure others have had at some point: what if when I press the drop weapon key with the sword, it whirls forwards (sort of like the bomb in basket-bomber ball) and hits anyone in its way? The sword currently feels like unlike the other weapons it can't be used on its own - it seems like a finisher rather than a weapon in its own right.

Thoughts?

[Vaecrius]

I want to have a player option where we spawn with a sword instead of a pistol.

[inpersona64]

I want to have a player option where we spawn with a sword instead of a pistol.

Actually, there's something I've never thought about. But see, the problem with that is if you spawn with the sword rather than the Pistol, then you need to be able to pick up a Pistol, the same way you would be able to pick up the Sword if you spawned with the Pistol. Because if you spawn with Sword, then you can never use the Pistol because there are no pickups.

[Vaecrius]

...it's a "sacrifice" I'm willing to make. >_> <_<

Anyway, back to the sword-throwing idea: sounds kinda fun actually. Gotta be able to bounce it around corners though, or arc it over an obstacle/teammate...

EDIT after a couple rounds attempting to learn to use it: scare quotes

[ZeroKnight]

I want to have a player option where we spawn with a sword instead of a pistol.

You can:

{l Code}: {l Select All Code}

spawnweapon num

Where "num" is a weapon number.

[Vaecrius]

Won't help if I join a server though...

On that note, on account of all the people voting instagib on the servers, I suggest that there be a mode where every shot does headshot damage.

EDIT: And after playing for a while and comparing the pistol with the plasma... can we please make it possible to attack constantly with the button held down for all weapons like in Doom or UT? I've never understood the appeal of pretending the attack button is a trigger (even back when I used a mouse and m1 was on the index finger) and all the button-mashing just wears out computer equipment while adding a minimum of engagement with the game.

[Remilia Scarlet]

Just showing...

[Headmew]

EDIT: And after playing for a while and comparing the pistol with the plasma... can we please make it possible to attack constantly with the button held down for all weapons like in Doom or UT?

+1

[qreeves]

Pistol is the most powerful weapon in the game (in a per-projectile per-second sense), fullauto was turned off to slightly offset this balance-wise. The only other alternatives to this really is lower the damage, increase the attack delay, or increase the reload delay (or even a combination of these things).

[Ulukai]

I don't agree with this auto-pistol idea. A pistol is usually not an automatic weapon, you have to pull the trigger for every shot. This gives the pistol also more the feeling that it IS a powerful weapon. And you don't have to bash your mouse to shoot, gently pushing the button will do just fine Lowering the pistol damage will give you disadvantage when you spawn and haven't got the time to collect another weapon.

[Vaecrius]

I have an undying and non-negotiable hatred for the idea that mouse button should equal gun trigger. It prizes superficial similarity over playability and leads to modders justifying horrible evil things like "the first time you hit fire you shoot the shotgun, the second time you hit fire you chamber a round".
That said, even if I accept that proposition, the plasma's ROF looks a lot more to me like someone's shooting a semiauto weapon in a steady rhythm rather than a full-auto weapon (can any existing full-auto gun even fire that slow?).

I do see Quinton's point about game balance, though it still feels like a button-mashing clickfest that encourages the development of all the wrong skills (Diablo/Starcraft anyone?). In contrast the pistol in TF2 is still a decent (as in if you spawn with it it's not a total game-killer) weapon, despite being comparatively much weaker.

I'm for increasing reload and shot delay.

And, really while we're at it, for allowing continuous attacks for any weapon for which holding the attack button doesn't do something else (e.g. grenade and rocket). Considering the delay for these other weapons - basically just the shotgun and rifle, having just tested this I notice the sword already does this - I think this can help with a lot of the playability and accessibility without making any of the other weapons too powerful.

[ZeroKnight]

Full-auto on non-full-auto weapons would suck for the people (like me) who don't just mash fire, and actually try to effectively time their shots :/ I don't really see the appeal here.
Just saying.

[Vaecrius]

So you leave your finger on the button for that long? Why? What's your setup?

Try using the pistol or shotgun in Doom or something, that's the sort of thing I have in mind. If that is causing you to make multiple shots inadvertently you should check your sticky key settings.

[ZeroKnight]

I have no idea what you're getting at, as I believe you're misreading my post. I'm saying I enjoy the mouse button acting as a trigger, because I can click only when I need to shoot, and not just hold down the button. In doing so, I can control my rate of fire, and increase efficiency through shooting less, but acquiring more hits.

And I've played DOOM. I know how they function, and I was never a fan of that firing method.
Again, I don't know what you mean by me making "multiple shots". I never said that.

[Vaecrius]

What I normally expect someone to do is that when they make a single shot in an FPS they click the mouse, same as you'd click a mouse in any other application. Press, immediately release. There is no reason why you would keep the button down longer than say 100ms.

There's nothing stopping you from clicking once for each shot in Doom. If you habitually did that, you shouldn't even notice that it is possible to attack repeatedly with the button held down.

The only way you'd lose control is if the gun had a very fast firing rate, or you held down the mouse button for a long time with every click, to the point where you'd fire one shot and fire again when you'd only intended the first shot.

[inpersona64]

@Vaecrius I think I see what you want here. That kind of firing method is incredibly newbie-friendly and I think something than any new player would catch on to. With that in mind, I think it would go against the game's mechanics (or at the very least, game balance) if every weapon was allowed "auto-fire". I think though that maybe if it was an option (turn on or off), I might agree for it. Because like Zero said, I too like to control my rate of fire and I think it gives me some sense of skill when weapons are limited to whether they are semi-auto, full-auto, or burst-fire.

[Vaecrius]

Making it optional would be a nice compromise - the pistol could fire faster if you click faster, but at a steady rate (comparable to plasma, possibly a tiny bit slower?) if you just hold.

As for balance, I think the only weapon at issue here is the pistol - the rifle and shotgun take long enough between shots and do enough damage on a direct hit that being able to hold the fire button for a followup shot instead of clicking again provides no advantage whatsoever.

[ZeroKnight]

Just figured I'd bump this thread. It's great for keeping weapon gripes/bugs out of the "Favorite weapon" thread.

[wowie]

This is me, trying my best to give a bunch of constructive criticism. No offense is intended, and this game is awesome. Just like anything else, though, it could always be more awesome.

game weapon graphics nitpick gripes (extreme edition):
small/nonexistent smg primary/secondary recoil animation makes the gun feel weak, and the smg reload animation is a placeholder
(I like the model, uzis are the most fun smg in any universe, only tweak i'd suggest is adding a moving slide on the top to make it less static)

flamer looks like a homemade prop
(scrap it and start fresh, maybe use a bullpup design with a rear loading canister)
the flamer flames themselves look very fluffy and airy. in my opinion the stream should be more liquid-like,
and opaque, with a sound to match, and overall more like a liquid powered flamer instead of a gas powered one

rocket is nice, but could use a readout on the top-left side to make it look more interesting and less static
(this could be done by adding a blank screen, then putting a glowing readout on top that says something like "ready", "loaded", "armed", or "danger", or several words & symbols)
rocket charging is currently completely static, it could also use the readout by having it slowly flashing at half the tempo of the timer clicking.
the rocket itself could have a burnt, charred tip... after all, it was just fired from a rocket launcher. also, a thick smoke trail would be nice.

the rifle clip pops out automatically when the clip empties, but you can barely tell
(if you ask me the rifle clip could load in and pop out horizontally through a deep slot in the side, and with a louder, sharper,
sound than it is currently so that it's easily visible and audible when it ejects, plus, power down the glow, just like the plasma does)
also the scope needs to be either more round or more square, as it is right now it looks rough with the octagon shape.

plasma gun looks like it should have some effect going on while charging, could the glowing blue parts slowly dim in brightness while charging a sphere?

for the flamer charging action for its secondary, the tank could momentarily glow much brighter until the charge is released.

the grenade has no real visual effect for charging, so, it could have its dynamic light dim/flash in sync with the beeping noise, this would be noticed on the player's arm reflection and in the environment.

the sword could have the shaded blue part of the blade momentarily darken during a swing, and return to normal at the end of the swing arc
the blue electric field sheathing the blade could distort and warp to show more accurately where the hit area is, like for the horizontal swing it leaves a trail behind the blade,
and for the vertical swing it extends past where the physical blade stops, to illustrate that it has increased range over the horizontal swing... and the effect would look cool

lastly, where was that WIP shotgun model that was floating around here? that thing looked sw33t!

the guns are something you look at a lot, and so far the best looking gun is the one that is used the least... the pistol
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i might made crude concept art for these ideas if anyone is interested
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As far as gameplay goes, as is, it is balanced flawlessly. Some weapons take more skill to use than others but all of the weapons are balanced nearly perfectly in my opinion.
The only weapon bug I've noticed is fixed in the svn verion so I can't complain there either. This game has great gameplay and has it's own unique (and highly modifiable) gameplay style.

[ctdabomb]

the guns are something you look at a lot, and so far the best looking gun is the one that is used the least... the pistol
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i might made crude concept art for these ideas if anyone is interested
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sounds interesting. I would like to see it/them

[wowie]

sounds interesting. I would like to see it/them

I'll get on it later today or tomorrow, right now I just wasted all of my free time writing that post. Gotta go for now!

[wowie]

solid looking, opaque, liquid powered flame. obviously, the flamer will never have that much spread in-game.

no offense intended

http://forum.freegamedev.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=2109&p=21546 <-- the epic shotgun model

Just in case anyone is wondering, the attached screenshots were not taken on my computer, I got a friend of mine to install Red E on his computer and I'm trying to hook him. time will tell.

adding another post with more screenshots below: