Weapon Balance, Functions and Bugs

[ZeroKnight]

The goal of this thread is to give feedback specifically on weapon balance, functions and bugs ONLY. This is not a thread to talk about which weapon you like better and why. There is already a thread for this.
As game development progresses, weapons are always tweaked a bit. Sometimes better results are seen, while sometimes bad results are seen; or even both. Here, we can keep an organized thread for discussing anything pertaining to weapon balance and function.

Is there something bad about how a weapon currently works? Do they do too much damage? Not enough? Splash too big? Too small? Fire rate too fast/slow? Any of these questions/topics are viable discussion points in this thread. While this is largely based on opinion, please try and keep all things relevant to overall improvement, and NOT something you personally would like to see. In other words, be as unbiased as you can possibly be. That said, I will secure the next 10 posts; one for each weapon, to keep track of all complaints/tweaks/etc.
This may seem like a lot of stolen posts, but it will be immensely easier in the long run to keep track of all ideas and comments.

[TESTER'S NOTE]
To see just how much damage weapons are actually doing, and when they do it, use:

{l Code}: {l Select All Code}

aboveheaddamage 1

It will display damage done over the target players' head.

[ZeroKnight]

Melee

* Future information will be stored here

[ZeroKnight]

Pistol

Projectile Options

Secondary

• 3-round burst style shot?
  
  • See this post for details

[ZeroKnight]

Sword

Projectile Options

Misc

• "dropping" the sword causes it to be throw like a projectile, bounce around corners/ground, arced throw
  
  • ([1], [2])

[ZeroKnight]

Shotgun

* Future information will be stored here

[ZeroKnight]

SMG

Damage

Primary

• Damage is fine
  
  • See posts ([1], [2], [3])
• Damage is too high. (25dmg per headshot, even at range)
  
  • See this post for details

Secondary

• Inreased fire rate
  
  • See posts ([1], [2])
• Decreased spread
  
  • See this post for details

Knockback

• Knockback is far too powerful; actually causes players to stop dead in their tracks, and can even be completely immobilized.
  
  • This is intentional, and intended as a counter to sword-wielding players.
    
    • Maybe not overpowered, but just needs a little bit of a reduction?
      
      • See posts ([1], [2], [3], [4])

Rate of Fire

Secondary

• Too slow
  
  • See post ([1], [2])

[ZeroKnight]

Flamer

Misc

• IDEA: Crits based on time, rather than per-shot?
  
  • See this post for details

Secondary

• Limit distance
• The greater the charge, the larger the napalm coverage area
  
  • See this post for details

Damage

Primary

• Too high due to the way flames hit multiple body parts at random, including head. Maybe decreasing base damage even further can help counteract this?
  
  • It's worth noting that sometimes the flamer does extreme amounts of damage in a very short time (is it just consecutive lucky criticals?), and sometimes it does very little damage.
    
    • CONFIRMED: Critical chance is very high, and is considered being lowered. [REVISION]: Quin is experimenting with Flamer settings on play.redeclipse.net; mainly having the flamer do zero criticals.
      
      • See posts ([1], [2])
  • Sometimes flames lick the target, but do no damage.

Knockback

Primary

• Flamer seems to have a bit of an excessively high knockback. It really shouldn't have knockback at all, considering they're only flames, and not a solid projectile.

[ZeroKnight]

Plasma

Projectile Speed

Secondary

• Link particle speed with with "power" var. Shorter charges are faster, while longer ones are gradually slower.
  
  • See this post for details

[ZeroKnight]

Rifle

Damage

Primary

• Splash damage is too high. ~30 dmg for just being inside the splash, which isn't exactly small.
  
  • Perhaps this is intended? Rifle does only have 5 shots, but it shouldn't be a close-combat weapon, and should be more reserved to sniping/medium-to-long range. The high damage should require careful accuracy, and not a shot near the feet.
    
  • Does this make the rifle too versatile a weapon? Shouldn't other weapons be better used in close-range situations?
    
    • See this post for details
  • IDEA: Separate the <weap>explosion variable into two separate variables. <weap>explosionradius, and <weap>explosiondamage. Currently, <weap>explosion factors in both size, and damage of the explosion. Keeping the rifle's splash the same size while reducing damage a tad may achieve more balance.
    
    • Deemed redundant by developer
  • IDEA: Remove primary fire splash and have damage equal to secondary. Maybe add slightly decreased primary fire accuracy for no-zoom compensation?
    
    • See post for details
  
  Secondary
  
  
  • Shots do not seem to hit when they should. Is this due to lack of hitscan? Or perhaps network latency? Or simply slow particle speed?
    
    • See this post for details
  • "Third" fire mode, involving different ways of right-clicking
    
    • See this post for details

[ZeroKnight]

Grenade

Damage

Secondary

• Stuck grenades will occasionally do zero damage. Anybody know the circumstances?

[ZeroKnight]

Rocket

* Future information will be stored here

[fawstoar]

SMG does realllllly low damage right now. Secondary is also too slow. Used to be many people's bread and butter weapon, now it's utterly useless. Other than that the balance is perfect, though the rifle's secondary often feels like it should have hit when it didn't. Is it hitscan?

[ZeroKnight]

Updated

• My initial entries to SMG, Flamer, Rifle and Grenade
• fawstoar's entries to SMG and Rifle

[arand]

My opinions and differing point to previous ones:

• SMG
  
  • I think the SMG is ok damage-wise for primary fire.
  • I agree with the knockback being a bit...urgh, but I don't think it is imbalanced, but rather extrememly frustrating, and maybe should be tweaked on that basis alone.
  • I agree on the SMG secondary being quite weak, some improvement might be reasonable (rate of fire? spread?).
• I think the flamer currently is ok balance-wise, it seems to be highly inconsistent, and obviously frustrating yes, but I do think it's overall not too powerful.
• Rifle primary splash I can agree with being very good, and maybe it makes the rifle too versatile a weapon overall? Should it be possible to compete with a rifle in a close quarters fight with another more "appropriate" weapon? Compared to the sword, or even the flamer, the rifle can handle soo many situation in just one weapon...

[ZeroKnight]

Good points, arand.

I also agree that the SMG primary fire is fine at it's current damage. As for the secondary, I hardly use it, so I have no opinion.
I do agree that the knockback doesn't totally imbalance the SMG, but it is pretty ridiculous at it's current state.

Hmm, I didn't think of it that way. I think the inconsistency is what makes it seem so powerful.

I agree completely. Really, I'm for lowering the damage of the splash (but keeping the same radius if we can implement that var split!) or just getting rid of the splash altogether, and have the rifle primary do the same amount of damage as the secondary. The only difference being that you can zoom. This would make the rifle very much like...well, an actual rifle. This way, no matter what, it would be 2 shots to the body, or one to the head, scope or not. Maybe even decrease the accuracy for primary just a bit to compensate for not being zoomed in.


Updated

Added arand's points
[EDIT] added fawstoar's revision (see below)

[fawstoar]

Played a TDM on Dutility using the SMG exclusively. I redact my previous statement about its primary being underpowered - it seems to be fine as is. The secondary I initially thought was horrible was actually quite useful in close quarters IF I TAP-FIRED IT. The spread needs to be toned down and the fire rate sped up a little to make it feel less like the shotgun secondary.

The rifle still feels inaccurate... maybe I have horrible aim but I feel like its projectile speed (which is already really fast) should be faster. I added an extra zero to the speed of the rifle in the variables of a singleplayer bot DM and it feels much better now. Might be just placebo, though.

[inpersona64]

I didn't realize the rifle primary damage for just splash is 30. Why not tone it down to perhaps 25. In this case, it will take at max 5 accurate shots and at minimum 4 splash shots to kill with those select few who can hit the body to kill even faster in about 3 (I forget what damage the rifle does to the body). I'm just thinking if you really want to promote accuracy with the rifle and keep it away from being that "all-around" weapon. Because yes, it does feel more like semi-automatic assault rifle than it does a sniper.

[fawstoar]

@Sona64,

Rifle primary is fine in terms of balance. Requiring more accuracy would only benefit experienced players, and I kind of like the semi-auto rifle feel. The scope should feel like a sniper though, and that's the bit I'm concerned about. It might just be lag, but I always feel like the secondary scoped fire is really inaccurate.

[qreeves]

SMG: The "stun" effect is actually intentional, it is the anti-sword, what needs lowering is the damage (it currently does 25 damage for a headshot, which means you can kill someone in less than one second - even at a range). I think the same goes for the plasma in this regard. I agree the secondary likely needs fixing, I have almost no use for it myself.

Flamer: play.redeclipse.net is currently testing a different idea with regards to the flamer, I've lowered the radius a bit so you need slightly better aim to use it. This seems to limit the "flamer noob" effect quite effectively in arena. The high chance of critical hits with this weapon is probably not helping, I'm considering removing it.

Rifle: The "splash" effect for the primary fire only does full damage at its center, it is scaled toward zero the further to the edge you are, and then it is scaled more depending on the hitzone you get. There is no need for a separate "explosiondamage" variable, it would just make the "damage" one redundant. As with all weapons in RE, there is no hitscan, they are purposely travelling projectiles with a time-to-impact; you need to learn to lead your shots like you would any gun in real life (this is by no means a suggestion that I am aiming for realism).

Everyone needs to realise a lot more goes into the balance of a weapon than just damage and radius too. Other factors include clip size, attack delay, reload delay, stun time/scale, hitpush, flak, speed, etc.

[Gingerbear]

My post is probably irrelevant.. but I feel the weapons have a good balance. But I'll try to contribute.

SMG: I honestly don't know what people mean when they say SMG is weak lol I feel its one of the more powerful weapons especially with the stun effect. I do feel the knock back effect could be reduced a tad.

Flamer: I do feel it has a big radius (need to test on play.redeclipse.net) but it doesn't bother me as much because I can use SMG to keep a distance.

Sword: Don't see any problems with it, just not many people know how to use it. And you wouldn't say its too weak if you played someone that is good with it (Wazubaba) lol

Rifle: Doesn't need any work. Perfect already.

Shotgun: Again, do not feel it needs work.

Grenade: I have noticed that there seems to be an issue with the sticky not always getting a kill (bug perhaps?). But maybe there is some way to shake a grenade?

Rocket Launcher: No problems with it.

Pistol: Perfect backup for when out of ammo No issues with it.

Plasma: Haven't used much in 1.2 so couldn't provide any feedback :/

[riidom]

___
Plasma-Secondary:
I find the small balls still too slow, increasing the speed scala would be good here imo (a 2-ammo miniball should move almost as fast as a primary shot, and in return, a full magazine ball shouldnt move at all)
___
Flamer-Secondary:
I really like that one, but I think it should be more limited in range, you can place your napalm-cookie really far away. A scalable amount (like introduced for the plasma ball) could be funny here - the more you pump into it, the more the distance is limited, but also more area is covered.
___
Rifle-Primary:
The splash is not a big issue imo, jumping up and/or keep away from walls behind you are two effective methods against it.
___
SMG:
I think the knockback is too strong, especially in comparison to knockbacks of other weapons. This could be smoothed out a bit, imo. The secondary feels useless to me, but since the SMG is a weapon I dislike to use, this is just me maybe.
___
Pistol secondary:
Not really an issue, but it looks weird for me to see two bullets coming out at once.. better having a 3-in-a-row solution?

[Glennz]

Why did my post get removed? T_T

[ZeroKnight]

Why did my post get removed? T_T

It probably just didn't go through. Either that, or it was removed because it was entirely about Halo.
Just a guess.

[ONTOPIC]
My school's internet is lame and doesn't send large posts. I'll reply to quin's post, and update the info in roughly 45min when I get home.

[ZeroKnight]

SMG: The "stun" effect is actually intentional, it is the anti-sword, what needs lowering is the damage (it currently does 25 damage for a headshot, which means you can kill someone in less than one second - even at a range).

Okay, thank you for clarifying the intent of the stun. And YES, you are exactly right about being close to insta-killed at a range.

Flamer: [...] I've lowered the radius a bit so you need slightly better aim to use it. [...] The high chance of critical hits with this weapon is probably not helping, I'm considering removing it.

Okay, good to know. However, I still stand by my comment that the flames appear to engulf the target, but do nothing. This may be a visual nitpick, but can lead to frustration for new players. Maybe.
I concur with the latter point, and now that you mention that, it explains why the flamer randomly kills extremely quickly. A high crit chance on this weapon makes sense, but I can hear the "crit sound" like a tremolo chirping. ie. it crits a LOT.

Rifle: The "splash" effect for the primary fire only does full damage at its center, it is scaled toward zero the further to the edge you are, and then it is scaled more depending on the hitzone you get.

I know that, though I think a test I did at one point showed this range to be quite wide...I will re-test in an hour when I am home.
[EDIT]
*see bottom of post*

There is no need for a separate "explosiondamage" variable, it would just make the "damage" one redundant.

I didn't think of that. Good point.

As with all weapons in RE, there is no hitscan, they are purposely travelling projectiles with a time-to-impact; you need to learn to lead your shots like you would any gun in real life (this is by no means a suggestion that I am aiming for realism).

I personally agree with you on that, and respect your decision.

Everyone needs to realise a lot more goes into the balance of a weapon than just damage and radius too. Other factors include clip size, attack delay, reload delay, stun time/scale, hitpush, flak, speed, etc.

I am well aware of this, and am fairly familiar with how balancing works. The collective point being made about the rifle is that this splash, combined with a pretty decently fast semi-auto fire rate makes the rifle practically a "multi-tool"; able to be used effectively in close range, mid range, and long range scenarios. It is questionable whether or not this is appropriate for a "rifle" type weapon.
I feel this is pretty much entirely based upon opinion, and will be hard to reach an agreement/understanding.

-------------------------------------------------
As for the rifle radius I mentioned above, here's some screens. I disabled hitpush to more accurately show the distance from the player the center of the splash was.
This may just be my own personal opinion, but it seems like that's an awfully large area of lenience for an off-target shot. Are there any other opinions on this?
I'm just trying to push points to get a collective thought, not trying to fulfill a personal agenda.

[Vaecrius]

I would love to see the flamer get fewer crits but higher base damage.
Maybe the crits can be determined by time rather than by shot TF2-style?

And yes, the eye-candy particles that look like they indicate damage but really don't have caused frustration to at least one new player here.
That said... are the projectiles from the shotgun, the ones that do damage when they touch someone, are those visible? I'm pretty sure the yellow tracers aren't it...

And I am all for a 3-round burst altfire for the pistol. (Or really anything that lets me hold down the mouse button and fire more than one shot...)