[SPLIT] Debate [from: WaZuMod]

[qreeves]

oh but how could i forget thou that this game isnt for the community by the community?

Aug 02 00:08:37 <eihrul__> <CIA-44> r2749 by qreeves (http://redeclipse.net/svn/2749) -> (13 files in 4 dirs) -> readded jetpack as another mutator
Aug 02 00:08:42 <HTN-Kitsune> oh and that pistol patch didnt work, i still get "selection is now random" so i'm working with manually patching back in that older revision
Aug 02 00:08:45 <eihrul__> hah, i told you you'd have to do that :P
Aug 02 00:10:02 * Joaz has quit (Quit: Bye)
Aug 02 00:12:52 <quin> i know, i knew i would too
Aug 02 00:13:19 <eihrul__> well, reason to look forward to 1.2
Aug 02 00:13:30 <HTN-Kitsune> if you knew, then why was it taken out in the first place? why not have had a poll before release about it?
Aug 02 00:14:03 <quin> because sometimes you gotta take something away for people to appreciate it
Aug 02 00:14:25 <HTN-Kitsune> ... thats a very bad mindset for a game, but oh well.
Aug 02 00:14:34 <DaSchwartz> ^
Aug 02 00:14:41 <quin> ides edition, everyone complained about jetpack
Aug 02 00:14:42 <eihrul__> this is not xonotic
Aug 02 00:14:45 <eihrul__> we don't work that way
...
Aug 02 00:18:21 <eihrul__> the brethren of cube are not held together by the strength of their players, but by the strength of their community leaders

You just can't help yourself can you? This forum has only started seeing real use since v1.1 - before that I had a handful of people in project development positions to draw from, plus random chit-chat I would get from playing online in pubs. What I saw, from what limited information I could gather back then, was:

- Mostly noobs would pick jetpack and piss off casuals/pros alike, being able to fly anywhere is a bit of a cop out for those who can parkour effectively.
- On quite a number of jetpack supported maps, it was too easy to just fly up in the air and take everyone out from way up in the sky.

So, I made the decision to "limit" the jetpack rather than completely remove it. This way, feedback, negative or not, would help me make the final design decision. The forum started growing, players started getting involved here with me, and I saw that even some of our biggest fans here missed the jetpack. Putting it back and keeping hover so everyone can have the best of both worlds. I'm sorry if that makes me look malevolent, but I developed this strategy of working due to a lack of immediate input from the general public for so many years.

Red Eclipse is now far more popular and active, and asking why I didn't hold a poll is like asking why effect doesn't precede cause. You can't have an effective poll without a decent sized community wanting to voice their opinion. The end result would have been the same, the number of active developers exceeded the number of active players contributing to the debate. Most of the time they've been working with me so long they have too much faith in my opinion and it skews theirs.

But again:

So lets just get back on topic.

So lets just drop this hole thing, again, be for it escalates.

What a contradiction, you challenge me again and then you say this so that I look like the bad guy for responding. Sorry, I'm too old and way too used to the internet to fall for your little mind games, so now I've exposed them. Everyone else can form their own opinion from here I think. You need to learn your place Kitsune, I am trying soooooooo hard to be patient here with you; I've ignored you getting around the bans placed and tried to let you have a second chance, and you are ruining it. I don't give third chances.

[inpersona64]

- Mostly noobs would pick jetpack and piss off casuals/pros alike, being able to fly anywhere is a bit of a cop out for those who can parkour effectively.
- On quite a number of jetpack supported maps, it was too easy to just fly up in the air and take everyone out from way up in the sky.

You are right actually. The second part is very true. As for the first, if the "noobs" keep choosing jet-pack/hover, just choose a different game-type. I can't begin to tell you all how many times I've just spectated a game because it was Insta/Medieval or Insta+Medieval with Hover. I truly don't like the flow of hover; it's just slow and cheap to me. Whenever I can, I try to avoid it.

People need to choose Survivor more...

[sireus]

You need to learn your place Kitsune

Hah, knew it. Some trolls are just way too obvious.

[Phy83r0pt1k]

I havent even trolled yet, but if ya want i can. i did come from flamewarforum and 4chan afterall. At any rate, I have been asked to back off by a friend.

[fluxord]

- Mostly noobs would pick jetpack and piss off casuals/pros alike, being able to fly anywhere is a bit of a cop out for those who can parkour effectively.
- On quite a number of jetpack supported maps, it was too easy to just fly up in the air and take everyone out from way up in the sky.

+1. Those are exactly the reasons why I disliked the jetpack!

In RE 1.0 Noobish Campers used the jetpack to fly stealthily under/sideways of a level and camp at a hidden spot
in the other team's base (spawn camping) (mostly in linear, dutility); or gain access to higher areas of a level
where they could camp (ghost comes to mind).

The forum started growing, players started getting involved here with me, and I saw that even some of our biggest fans here missed the jetpack. Putting it back and keeping hover so everyone can have the best of both worlds.

Glad I'm not one of those that miss the jetpack
Parkour FTW!

[ZeroKnight]

- Mostly noobs would pick jetpack and piss off casuals/pros alike, being able to fly anywhere is a bit of a cop out for those who can parkour effectively.
- On quite a number of jetpack supported maps, it was too easy to just fly up in the air and take everyone out from way up in the sky.

So true. So soooo true.

You are right actually. The second part is very true. As for the first, if the "noobs" keep choosing jet-pack/hover, just choose a different game-type. I can't begin to tell you all how many times I've just spectated a game because it was Insta/Medieval or Insta+Medieval with Hover. I truly don't like the flow of hover; it's just slow and cheap to me. Whenever I can, I try to avoid it.
People need to choose Survivor more...

Yeah, people like to pick really REALLY terrible combinations of mutators sometimes, at which point I'll either activate my jihad bind and go for only grenades... (bind MOUSE3 [say ^frALLAHUACKBAR; kill] just so I can get a tiny bit of entertainment out of it, or I'll just spectate like inP said. Some really bad combinations like ballistic onslaught vampire resize hover hold bomber ball. It's like really? It just bugs me.

But on topic, I don't like Jetpack OR Hover, honestly. I find that both mutators take away the main thing that makes the game unique, parkour. I don't like when I'm trying to dodge, and I accidently hold space a microsecond too long, and I stop dead and float for a second, and get killed. I don't like when people hide in the air, or just float everywhere.

Unbeknownst to most, is that you can reach a lot of places with just parkour, if you take the time to learn how to use it skillfully. I know the exact spots on Ghost you're talking about, and they're the top most ledges in the corners that lead out of the spawns (near the water basin side). You CAN get up there will parkour. Hell, you could even get on the tall pillars at spawn in Linear with skillful walljumps. Even in 1.0!!
I can't tell you how many times I've baffled and frustrated a people on how I seem to have a rocket launcher 70% of the time when playing on Linear. (There's one above each spawn, guys ;P)

That's just my opinion. I just find the two mutators to be, like quin said, a cop-out for lack of impulse skill. (and a dodging annoyance) Though I will say that hover is more tolerable than Jetpack, because at least that way Jet-tards can't hide as effectively anymore. However if you're on an already high place (take the arches on the bridges in Ghost for example) and hover there, you can still be hard to spot. It's not perfect, but waaay more tolerable. Still, I'd rather have neither. But hey, that's just me.

[fluxord]

I know the exact spots on Ghost you're talking about, and they're the top most ledges in the corners that lead out of the spawns (near the water basin side). You CAN get up there will parkour. Hell, you could even get on the tall pillars at spawn in Linear with skillful walljumps. Even in 1.0!!

I did too in 1.0. But honestly, I enjoyed more fragging the guys that did hide there, especially when they are 'bout to reach those places

I just find the two mutators to be, like quin said, a cop-out for lack of impulse skill. (and a dodging annoyance) Though I will say that hover is more tolerable than Jetpack, because at least that way Jet-tards can't hide as effectively anymore. However if you're on an already high place (take the arches on the bridges in Ghost for example) and hover there, you can still be hard to spot. It's not perfect, but waaay more tolerable. Still, I'd rather have neither. But hey, that's just me.

+1. And me too

People need to choose Survivor more...

Yeah, TDM-Arena-Survivor is quite like Counter Strike. Hide like a ninja & let the players kill each other, when only one is left come out (like a hero) and MF kill him
Add Vampire to that combo and it becomes quite fun

[ZeroKnight]

People need to choose Survivor more...

Yeah, TDM-Arena-Survivor is quite like Counter Strike. Hide like a ninja & let the players kill each other, when only one is left come out (like a hero) and MF kill him :p :lol:
Add Vampire to that combo and it becomes quite fun :D

+1000!
Totally! Survivor is a really neat game mode, IMHO, it requires more skill to win. Because you have to play more strategically with your team to have a good chance at winning. A very fun game mode combination IMO is Instagib Medieval Survivor. Either teamed or not, it's really fun, as it gives a big medieval battle aspect to it :P
Duel is fun for proving skill :P

[inpersona64]

Some really bad combinations like ballistic onslaught vampire resize hover hold bomber ball. It's like really? It just bugs me.

OMGWTFLOL!!! Whenever I see a gametype on a server that says something like "T-I-M-O-R-V Defend The Flag" i'm thinking...SKIP! Can't deal with more than 3 mutators (T-A DM or T-M-S DM)

I don't like when I'm trying to dodge, and I accidently hold space a microsecond too long, and I stop dead and float for a second, and get killed.

You aren't alone bro. Happens to me too..all the time! Another reason I can't deal with hover. Unless it's a gametype that hover would be incredibly useful (for me, any game on Ubik lol), I just spectate because I'm a dodgy kind of guy; hover throws me off.

Hell, you could even get on the tall pillars at spawn in Linear with skillful walljumps. Even in 1.0!!
I can't tell you how many times I've baffled and frustrated a people on how I seem to have a rocket launcher 70% of the time when playing on Linear. (There's one above each spawn, guys ;P)

What's funny is that I've actually only realized that recently (probably because people usually do Team Insta DM on Linear). I got up the pillars too to get it. Not that hard. People really need to learn how to better utilize their double jump. Getting across long gaps when you don't have enough distance doesn't mean you have to fall.

In this game, you MUST think parkour.
If you've never played MIrror's Edge, I'd suggest getting the game. Reshapes your whole way of thinking parkour and really helped me open my mind when I comes to moving around obstacles in video games.

[ZeroKnight]

In this game, you MUST think parkour.

QFT. There is so much truth there, I shall put it in my sig.

Also, I've never played Mirror's Edge, but I could see how it would help in RE, at least a little bit.

[inpersona64]

Also, I've never played Mirror's Edge, but I could see how it would help in RE, at least a little bit.

Mirror's Edge isn't open world or arena as this game is, but there are different ways of getting around levels and keeping your momentum; in red eclipse, this "momentum" transfers to energy, therefore you learn how to conserve energy while moving and staying alive. Not to mention the game's graphics are incredibly vivid. Good story too. Of course, I only played it like 2 years ago. But it was a good game.

[Phy83r0pt1k]

Mirror's edge isnt that realistic with its parkour thou. I've done parkour since the 7th grade. thou on a scale of 1 - 10 in realism to that aspect, i give mirror's edge a 7/10.

[qreeves]

In this game, you MUST think parkour.
If you've never played MIrror's Edge, I'd suggest getting the game. Reshapes your whole way of thinking parkour and really helped me open my mind when I comes to moving around obstacles in video games.

I'm glad you said that, because you can thank my love of Mirror's Edge for the whole reason I said to myself "Hey, I wonder what parkour would be like for our game?"

[bovineuniversity]

IMO jetpack gets a bad rap. I liked it in certain cases. Ghost being one of them. You can do funkier things with the jump pads when you have the jetpack, or jump off a bridge, hover under it to reload, and pop back up on the other side. The limited time you could use it kept people from just hovering forever. And for those who did use it to get up high on ledges and things - they usually don't last long up there. It was actually very useful on maps like dutility or some of the others where you can get knocked off easily. And on Linear. The thing is, if you use it you hang there for all to see and shoot. I don't find the rocket that much of an advantage - but I prefer playing instagib. In the time it takes someone to get the rocket I can get 5 frags.

I know a lot of people didn't like it. I think it was better than hover though. But it's just one small piece of the game, I don't think it's a deciding factor on whether or not to play. I don't think the solid vision of this game should be compromised for one small thing like this. Unless of course everyone starts playing medieval, then I'm outta here.

Death to Wazu.
]COO[ for life.

[ZeroKnight]

You can do great things with the jump pads on Ghost without the jetpack. I can jump into the center opening to spawn from a side jump pad. I can leap to the corners from the middle or side jump pads. If you can time impulse jumps well in any situation, you can get to some really neat places, and to heavily roamed areas in a sudden or sneaky method and tear people up.
Again, if you're skilled, getting the rocket above spawn on linear shouldn't take you long. It only takes me about 5 seconds. In my opinion, maps like Dutility where you can easily fall are fun, and just add to the challenge of dodging, killing, and not falling to your death. Dutility especially. On some maps, if you've got spare impulse energy, you can almost always recover from falling to your doom.

Lol, no one's going to stop playing the game just because of jetpack. All I said was I sit the match out when someone picks a terrible combination of mutators. I don't like Jetpack or Hover, but I still play RE fanatically.

[bovineuniversity]

Yeah, I hear you.. I can do those impuse things on Ghost too, like going from a jump pad then parkouring off the side and around the corner.. but the jetpack helped is all. I used it.. I just didn't rely on it. My fingers get sore from all the impulsing. I understand sitting out matches too... like right now, I'm sitting out on a team-ballistic-deathmatch on Dropzone. Another place jetpack would help, because it can keep you away from the spash-damage.. of course, on a map like that, campers gonna camp.

[ZeroKnight]

True. I can give the jetpack credit where it's due, because very rarely it's helpful, but I really try to avoid using it. That's just me.
Eh...that blows. At least it's JUST ballistic...could be like what I mentioned above... haha :P
Campers are indeed gonna camp.

[inpersona64]

In my opinion, maps like Dutility where you can easily fall are fun, and just add to the challenge of dodging, killing, and not falling to your death. Dutility especially. On some maps, if you've got spare impulse energy, you can almost always recover from falling to your doom.

Eh, i hate dutility when its more than 4 people in the server. 3v3 on dutility gets chaotic. once, i think in orbitals FFA server, we had 9 people on dutility..i spectated lol! People just kept falling every 15 seconds.

I really can't stand people who do Ballistic..I mean don't get me wrong, the RPG can be a game changer, BUT a rocket only game just seems kinda noobey to me. I avoided Rocket Only servers in halo because its cheap. I'd only do Ballistic when I'm seriously bored, or if there is ever a map that tactically uses the rocket launcher.

Jetpack really isn't good on every map, but some maps, like the ones that don't have a lot of land; it is good for. I'd only use Jetpack on Ubik really because I fall constantly on that map, more than Dutility. But of all else, I prefer parkour because it looks good in montages