Backstory/Gameplay

[svenskmand]

I am coming up with ideas for the backstory, and therefore gameplay elements. I have added some new things to how the construct forces are build and destroyed, see the wiki page. I encourage people to look this through, as this will define how you play this faction, comments please

I will be thinking about which creatures the Constructs should have and how they should look. I have a idea for their workers, I will try and make a concept sketch, and then make a explanation of them. I also have ideas for their scout, which I will also try and make a concept sketch of, and some text in the wiki. These thinks will be put in this page of the wiki.

I also have some questions for the Creature page on the wiki, they are:
Workers
Q: Why do each faction have a Kobold?, why does the Undead not just kill them and used them as "parts" for their own minions?
A:?
Q: Why does the Constructs not just kill the Kobolds, they are not pure as the Constructs.
A: ?

Advanced workers
Q: Why do we have basic and advanced worker? Can you not train you workers to improve their skill?
A: ?

I do not think that the Kobolds fit in with all factions, but I agree that each faction should have a magical default worker. But how should they be? Hope we can get some of these questions answered

[andrewbuck]

The idea for basic and advanced workers dates back to alien_wolf who originally started this project. His idea (and I think it was pretty good) is that you would automatically start with 4 Kobolds in your dungeon, if one of them died a new one would respawn after a short time at your dungeon heart. In fairy-tale legend, the kobold is a friendly creature which would help miners by digging out treasure for them at night, this makes a good backstory as to why they help all the factions and why they all get them; they just help out anyone in the underground. The nice thing about having them auto respawn is you always have a small force that can at least dig/mine, this keeps the game moving forward. On DK you sometimes would have to wait for your mana to come back until you could create an imp, although this is not dissimilar from waiting for the respawn.

It hasn't really been talked about but I was planning to include "leveling" of creatures which would apply to the workers as well. So even if you can auto-respawn your Kobolds, by protecting them they will survive to level up and become faster workers.

-Buck

[svenskmand]

Regarding the Kobolds respawning I think that they should be statues on the three pillars on the Dungeon Temple (DT) (Dungeon heart), such that they are part of you dungoen heart. Then when they spawn they get lose from the DT, and when they die they turns to dust, and then slowlt assembles at the DT, and then respawns. But then the would have to be stone creatures, which would also be nice. But there is only 3 pillars on the DT sketch, but maybe 3 would be enough.

What do you guys think about that idea?

[andrewbuck]

I think this is a cool idea, and of course three would be fine, too; the choice of four was arbitrary. They wouldn't actually need to be stone creatures once they were brought to life though. You could have the stone build up into a statue, then the stone "shell" cracks away to leave a kobold standing there who then walks out into the dungeon. I think that would look really neat and be a good way of reintroducing the kobolds to the dungeon.

One question regarding the dynamics of this would be, when do the statues start rebuilding themselves? We could do it one of two ways. One, they start rebuilding immediately after the kobolds break out of them but the new kobolds will not break out until an existing kobold dies. This would give you an instant rush of kobolds after one died but would still limit you to three live ones at a time.

The second method would be that the stones do not start reassembling themselves until a live kobold was killed. I think this would make more sense.

-Buck

[svenskmand]

I think this is a cool idea, and of course three would be fine, too; the choice of four was arbitrary. They wouldn't actually need to be stone creatures once they were brought to life though. You could have the stone build up into a statue, then the stone "shell" cracks away to leave a kobold standing there who then walks out into the dungeon. I think that would look really neat and be a good way of reintroducing the kobolds to the dungeon.

Yeah that would be nice

One question regarding the dynamics of this would be, when do the statues start rebuilding themselves? We could do it one of two ways. One, they start rebuilding immediately after the kobolds break out of them but the new kobolds will not break out until an existing kobold dies. This would give you an instant rush of kobolds after one died but would still limit you to three live ones at a time.

The second method would be that the stones do not start reassembling themselves until a live kobold was killed. I think this would make more sense.

-Buck

Yeah I will also say that the second method is best. You should have to wait if all of you Kobolds dies, because then you have not handled them with enough care

I will update the wiki accordingly (I will do that tomorrow), unless there is anybody who have any objections?

[Bodsda]

I think this is a cool idea, and of course three would be fine, too; the choice of four was arbitrary. They wouldn't actually need to be stone creatures once they were brought to life though. You could have the stone build up into a statue, then the stone "shell" cracks away to leave a kobold standing there who then walks out into the dungeon. I think that would look really neat and be a good way of reintroducing the kobolds to the dungeon.

Yeah that would be nice

One question regarding the dynamics of this would be, when do the statues start rebuilding themselves? We could do it one of two ways. One, they start rebuilding immediately after the kobolds break out of them but the new kobolds will not break out until an existing kobold dies. This would give you an instant rush of kobolds after one died but would still limit you to three live ones at a time.

The second method would be that the stones do not start reassembling themselves until a live kobold was killed. I think this would make more sense.

-Buck

Yeah I will also say that the second method is best. You should have to wait if all of you Kobolds dies, because then you have not handled them with enough care

I will update the wiki accordingly (I will do that tomorrow), unless there is anybody who have any objections?

I actually prefer the idea of the statues rebuilding straight away, although I don't think we should get an instant kobold when one dies. Perhaps the break out animation could take a minute or 2, slowly cracking the shell until eventually it breaks out.

Bodsda

[svenskmand]

...
I actually prefer the idea of the statues rebuilding straight away, although I don't think we should get an instant kobold when one dies. Perhaps the break out animation could take a minute or 2, slowly cracking the shell until eventually it breaks out.

Bodsda

As I understood AndrewBuck, and what I was thinking about; then the Kobold dies and the statue begins to rebuild slowly, after some time the statue has rebuild completely, then it starts crackling the shell until it breaks out. And this is also what I would like to have.

[Bodsda]

...
I actually prefer the idea of the statues rebuilding straight away, although I don't think we should get an instant kobold when one dies. Perhaps the break out animation could take a minute or 2, slowly cracking the shell until eventually it breaks out.

Bodsda

As I understood AndrewBuck, and what I was thinking about; then the Kobold dies and the statue begins to rebuild slowly, after some time the statue has rebuild completely, then it starts crackling the shell until it breaks out. And this is also what I would like to have.

Im not really fussed either way, but I font really see the point in waiting for them to die before the rebuild.

Bodsda

[svenskmand]

...
Im not really fussed either way, but I font really see the point in waiting for them to die before the rebuild.

Bodsda

It is because you only have 3 Kobolds, so they cannot rebuild if they are still alive (then you would have more than 3). Also the keeper should be punished for letting his Kobolds dies, and therefore there is a delay before they respawn.

[Bodsda]

...
Im not really fussed either way, but I font really see the point in waiting for them to die before the rebuild.

Bodsda

It is because you only have 3 Kobolds, so they cannot rebuild if they are still alive (then you would have more than 3). Also the keeper should be punished for letting his Kobolds dies, and therefore there is a delay before they respawn.

From a coding point of view that wouldn't be an issue. The statues would not be kobolds until the animation is finished, then the statue instance would be destroyed and spawn a kobold. You would then only ever have 3 kobolds. I just like the idea of always having the statues there because it adds to the scenery. Having them there for only 60 seconds seems a bit pointless. Them always being there also makes it look different to the standard dungeon heart we all know and love

Bodsda

[charlie]

Don't just copy the dungeon heart. Nothing wrong with having visual differences between OpenDungeons and Dungeon Keeper I.

[svenskmand]

...
From a coding point of view that wouldn't be an issue.
...

I look at i from a logical/physical point of view, not from a coding point of view. If we only have three Kobolds then there cannot be 3 working for you while the other 3 status are build and done, because the you have 6 Kobolds in total.

...
The statues would not be kobolds until the animation is finished, then the statue instance would be destroyed and spawn a kobold. You would then only ever have 3 kobolds. I just like the idea of always having the statues there because it adds to the scenery. Having them there for only 60 seconds seems a bit pointless. Them always being there also makes it look different to the standard dungeon heart we all know and love

Bodsda

I have another idea now.

1. You start the game with no Kobolds, only the statues at the DT, which are completely build.
2. The Kobolds break out through the statues.
3. You now have 3 Kobolds and mean while the statues are rebuilding for some time, until they are complete.
4. When one of you Kobolds die, and none of your statues are build complete, you have to wait for them to complete.
5. When the statues are complete, then a spirit/soul of the dead Kobold flies out, and the body disappears, the spirit/soul fly back to the DT and into one of the complete statues, then the Kobold begins to break out of the complete statue.
6. When the Kobold have broken out it starts working, and the statue will begin to rebuild and we repeat from step 4 when a Kobold dies.

Don't just copy the dungeon heart. Nothing wrong with having visual differences between OpenDungeons and Dungeon Keeper I.

What do you mean? We do not copy, we expanded on the idea of the normal Dungeon Heart, but I think that this way it makes more sense?

[svenskmand]

Regarding the Kobols for each faction, I think we should maybe customize them a little bit, so that the Undead Kobolds have bones free and some blood down of them, they are cadaverous. This may be because a ghoul or zombie have feed upon them. The Corpars Kobolds are very dirty as they are always down in the dungeons. The Constructs Kobold have very light skin and looks tidy as the Constructs are very holy (fanatically holy). And the Human Kobolds just look like the regular Kobolds (the one we have now). This could be done by customizing the Kobold skin for each faction.

What do you all think about this idea?

[andrewbuck]

I disagree. The kobolds are meant to be the common force that helps all people underground, regardless of their faction. The customization for each faction is a good idea, but that is what the "Advanced workers" are for.

-Buck

[svenskmand]

I just cannot imagine why the Undead would not kill the Kobolds? The Undead are mean killers that has no respect for life. Likewise for the Constructs they would see the Kobolds as unworthy of the life they have. The Humans would probably accept the Kobolds, but I do not know about the Corpars, maybe they think free workers is better than nothing

Anyone that has some other ideas why they would coexist?

[Bodsda]

I just cannot imagine why the Undead would not kill the Kobolds? The Undead are mean killers that has no respect for life. Likewise for the Constructs they would see the Kobolds as unworthy of the life they have. The Humans would probably accept the Kobolds, but I do not know about the Corpars, maybe they think free workers is better than nothing

Anyone that has some other ideas why they would coexist?

I think the kobolds should spawn as usual, but the first undead creature that comes across it should 'zombify' it.

Bodsda

[svenskmand]

That is pretty interesting

[Bodsda]

Reading through the backstory again, I notice this paragraph which makes little to no sense to me.

{l Code}: {l Select All Code}

The \ContainerName (give this a cool name :) in the Dungeon Temple is normally not moved, but can be but then the overlord has no control or vision over his forces, so during battle with rival overlords the the \ContainerName is not move. But when a land has been conquered the \ContainerName is moved to a new land for the overlord to conquer, but this move is only performed by his most loyalt and trusted minions, as they carry his life in their hands, when they move him, and he has absolutely no control over them during that period.


Does anyone know what is meant by this? I think they are referring to moving the temple on to the next dungeon. I never thought of it before, but this was also never explained in DK1/2 - How does the dungeon heart/temple appear at the next dungeon? Although I don't have an answer, I don't think we should involve it in the gameplay. What does everyone else think?

Bodsda

EDIT: I believe svenskmand made this entry, could you enlighten me?

[svenskmand]

I think I wrote it at some point. It was just to explain how the jar/container in the Dungeon Temple (DT), in one level, is moved to the DT in the next level I think that we should make an animation/movie-sequence where we see this happen, as was the case in DK1 and 2. In DK1 you saw the camera fly into the dungeon heart at start up, and in DK2 you saw the dungeon heart grow out of the ground.

In OD we could see the three Kobolds install the jar/container in the DT.

[Bodsda]

I think I wrote it at some point. It was just to explain how the jar/container in the Dungeon Temple (DT), in one level, is moved to the DT in the next level I think that we should make an animation/movie-sequence where we see this happen, as was the case in DK1 and 2. In DK1 you saw the camera fly into the dungeon heart at start up, and in DK2 you saw it grow out of the ground.

In OD we could see the three Kobolds install the jar/container in the DT.

Oh, ok, I see what you mean. Do we have any cut-scene animators on the project?

Bodsda

[svenskmand]

...
Oh, ok, I see what you mean. Do we have any cut-scene animators on the project?
Bodsda

No, I do not think so. But I do not think that it is a priority right now. The cut-scene should also be in-game graphics, so it should probably be done in the map-editor or in the game-code it self.

[svenskmand]

I have posted what I currently have for the backstory if we go with the alignment system, on this wiki page. I will be adding more to it later, but the next week or so I will not do much, but I may think about stuff to add If you want to contribute you can start by taking a look at this paragraf as this is the most finished one, and it sets the start of the actions taking place in the game, I think it is a good start for the history if we go with the alignment system The other parts of the wiki page are not only brainstorming, and I will fill them out when I have more ideas

[Keldaryth]

I have just refreshed the backstory from a story perspective to flesh out the world and give each and every one of the 'factions' a more involved backstory and a purpose other than 'noble, good' or 'underground, evil'. Each faction has its ups and downs (although constructs probably still need more work - a lot more work to give them some depth), but have a bit more purpose.

Wiki page is here

I've changed a few titles to made a bit more feudal sense and made up a lot of names - they're exactly that, made up, happy to have them changed.

[svenskmand]

Cool, I will try and see if I can make some progress on the other Backstory page (the one for the alignment system), and when that is in a somewhat more finished state and we have taken all the stuff that fits from the old page (the one you linked to) then we should remove it.

[Keldaryth]

Well, I'm happy to try working on a mock up of hybrid system mechanics to show how we could work it. We might have to change some factions around, but that's doable.

I'm also interested in shifting the player role somewhat though. I'm not sure how much we have to explain and make logical. I have some random idea for an underground event that's warping The Deep causing the Corpar to become more aggressive, dissention in the ranks of the constructs and bolstering the strength of the undead. This would also leak out into the surface world and give the Kobolds a reason to 1) bring people in 2) help them, assuming that the Kobolds have a goal: restore the harmony of The Deeps. This would give us an antagonist to play with - or against as the case may be - I vote demons, because they're always fun - and give our players an excuse to use any and all creature/alignment mixes as there is a greater enemy to face down - or not as they choose.