Suggestion: Children-Mode for STK

[mitscherdinger]

Hi!

I'm playing (Super-)Tuxkart since I bought SuSE (6.2 or 7.2, which was it?) long time ago. I'm very impressed about the progress the game did go through the last years! Today I'm playing STK with my family, 'cause it's one of the rare games for linux that can be played together as a family AND has justifiable content for children.

I don't want to start an argue about if it's o.k. to let children in the age 5 upwards play computer at all. (Some might think that it's not a appropriate activity for such a small human beeing.) I think it is!
My son is now seven years of age. We started playing STK about a year ago.

All in all, it's much fun for him to play with adults together. On the other hand he never has a real chance to beat them. Sometimes he's even one or two rounds behind the opponents, which is not only frustrating to him but even to all of the people playing, since we have to wait several minutes until he finished. But even if he plays alone against "beginner" computer-opponents the AI of the game's still too challenging for him(, so he always wants to play without them and protests, if I'd rather like to play with one). Staying on the road is hard on some tracks, especially if he has to use an additional key to get through a curve or if he uses an "arrow"-item for acceleration.

So I wonder if it's possible to let one play in some kind of "children-mode", where the player has some certain simplifications to make things easier.

Here are some suggestions, how this could be realised:
* In the race-configuration-screen or in the players-configuration-screen in the preferences: Put a checkbox under the name of the participant named "I am a child".
* Keep Non-Child-(AI-)Opponents from atacking children with weapons (or their cars). (I guess a child attacking a child might be o.k.)
* Provide a mechanism that keeps the child on track / allow moderate acceleration by using the "arrow"-item / automatically guide through sharp curves.
* Automatically activate "rescue" if the child accidently ended up driving "wrong way".

I also thought about automatically using items whenever it seems suitable, just to let the child concentrate on driving. On the other hand, "pulling the trigger" seems to be a big fun…

Besides the child-mode, another suggestion:
* Don't let people drive another round if one already finished…

What do you think about the child-mode? I guess it's possible to mix an AI with a human player to realise this. But, honestly, I don't know nothing about programming games…

Greets!
Mitsch

[Auria]

Hi Mitsch,

thanks for your feedback.

It's indeed not the first time it is reported that the AI is too hard for young children. I created a ticket about this : https://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/super ... ticket/484

Now STK 0.7.3 is very close to be released and it's too late to add this feature in it in a polished way. But I plan to integrate it in STK 0.8, with AIs going slower than the player and not shooting much on players (unfortunately can't give time estimates when this will happen )

However, I just added a late-minute change to make the speed of AIs configurable in a config file so when STK 0.7.3 is out, you can just open file "stk_config.xml" in the data files and you will find

{l Code}: {l Select All Code}

  <!-- A value between 0 and 1, change this to handicap AIs -->
  <ai acceleration="1.0"  />


just change 1.0 to something like 0.5 and the AIs will be much easier to beat


About keeping karts easier to control when using zippers (what you call "arrow items") I have the pleasure to tell you it's already done for 0.7.3 It won't go as far as guide you, but the steering code was tweaked so that it's much less likely to lose control

https://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/super ... /ticket/29 would also probably be relevant

* Automatically activate "rescue" if the child accidently ended up driving "wrong way".

Maybe, not too sure about this one For 0.8 we do plan to make it much harder for karts to be flipped 180 degrees on collision, hopefully this will make the problem much less worse. The problem with automatic rescues is that there are sometimes false positives which can be equally frustrating so I'd rather do what is needed for players to not end up reversed rather than cathering for the problem when it happens

Unless you were talking about being off-track in general and not necessarily reversed?

Provide a mechanism that keeps the child on track / automatically guide through sharp curves.

Hmm this is a bit harder to do, IMO, without removing the fun from the game. For instance it'd be very easy to let the AI kick in and guide the kart but it'd be boring... tweaking something to be helpful enough while not being intrusive enough to kill the fun is much work.

Maybe one way could be to draw "invisible walls" on the sides of the road so that instead of leaving the track they would bump in a wall (and hopefully with the physics changes of 0.8 the karts would not stop as much as they do now but instead just go back on track)

[mitscherdinger]

thanks for your feedback.

And thanks for the quick but also detailed reply! Again, I'm impressed!

Now STK 0.7.3 is very close to be released and it's too late to add this feature in it in a polished way. But I plan to integrate it in STK 0.8, with AIs going slower than the player and not shooting much on players (unfortunately can't give time estimates when this will happen )

You mean, STK (in future version) recognizes if a lesser skilled driver is around and automatically handicaps the AI players?

However, I just added a late-minute change to make the speed of AIs configurable in a config file so when STK 0.7.3 is out, you can just open file "stk_config.xml" in the data files and you will find

{l Code}: {l Select All Code}

  <!-- A value between 0 and 1, change this to handicap AIs -->
  <ai acceleration="1.0"  />


just change 1.0 to something like 0.5 and the AIs will be much easier to beat

I'll try this as soon as 0.7.3 is out…!

About keeping karts easier to control when using zippers (what you call "arrow items") I have the pleasure to tell you it's already done for 0.7.3 It won't go as far as guide you, but the steering code was tweaked so that it's much less likely to lose control

Yeah, I read viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2118 after writing my thread. Nice!

https://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/supertuxkart/ticket/29 would also probably be relevant

Yes, somehow, but on the other hand it's trying to solve the problem the other way around… I'm totally fine with the gameplay and if I'm playing with someone on the same skill level it's really exciting fun to play STK, for me. Now, if the top speed and/or acceleration of my kart would be reduced, it would be even easier for my to drive through curves (and maybe I would fall asleep if I climb a mountain…) So, I think, to keep the fun for all of the players, lesser skilled people should be pushed instead of handcap the experienced. (Although I understand from a developer point of view it might be somewhat easier to implement… )
It makes even more sense when playing with different skilled humans and AI-players: If the handicap of the AI would be increased (they are slower, they don't shoot so much), then where is my challenge?

* Automatically activate "rescue" if the child accidently ended up driving "wrong way".

[…] you were talking about being off-track in general and not necessarily reversed?

Well, I meant reversed, but before anyone get's lost while driving off-track, it wouldn't be wrong, either.

For 0.8 we do plan to make it much harder for karts to be flipped 180 degrees on collision

Nice!

Provide a mechanism that keeps the child on track / automatically guide through sharp curves.

Hmm this is a bit harder to do, IMO, without removing the fun from the game. For instance it'd be very easy to let the AI kick in and guide the kart but it'd be boring... tweaking something to be helpful enough while not being intrusive enough to kill the fun is much work.

You might be right, but: Have you ever seen a child "playing" a demo of a game console in a warehouse. Sometimes they don't realise that the computer doesn't care about the gamepads' input, even if you tell them… O.k., I don't wanna incite you to cheat a child, but as long as I can tell, my son wouldn't care about how much he really did by himself, as long as he had finished first.

No, you needn't go that far - I just wanted to tell, how much room you actually have.

Maybe one way could be to draw "invisible walls" on the sides of the road so that instead of leaving the track they would bump in a wall (and hopefully with the physics changes of 0.8 the karts would not stop as much as they do now but instead just go back on track)

Yeah - invisible walls for children! This idea goes very much into my direction!

Greets!
Mitsch

[Auria]

I wasn't planning on "automatically" handicapping AIs, just have a new difficulty mode where AIs are easier than the current easy mode.

About easing turning in curves, we'll need to see; the thing is, we're only 2 core devs (plus one for the add-ons website) and as such we don't have the personnel to do very elaborate features that would affect few players - so I unfortunately can't give you any promises on that side

[Iridium]

I wasn't planning on "automatically" handicapping AIs, just have a new difficulty mode where AIs are easier than the current easy mode.

About easing turning in curves, we'll need to see; the thing is, we're only 2 core devs (plus one for the add-ons website) and as such we don't have the personnel to do very elaborate features that would affect few players - so I unfortunately can't give you any promises on that side

eg: Automatic drift mode in MK Wii; similar or not?

[mitscherdinger]

I unfortunately can't give you any promises on that side

Hey, I'm glad if my thoughts are even discussed…

I guess the stearing improvements in 0.7.3 + the physics change in 0.8 will make things easier, already.
If it's not too hard to implement: The "invisible walls"-idea and the "automatic drift mode" sounds great to me and if you prevent the AI from attacking children, maybe it would already be enough to push the small players of STK.

I don't think that a less challanging AI is the right way to go. It may be allright for a "children-only"-round, but my intension was to equal my and my son's chance to win, if we're playing together… Just my 2 cents…

Besides the improvements-for-children-thing: What do you think about preventing "lapped" (got this from google translation - hope, you understand this) people to drive another full round, if onother player already finished?

Hey, and (sth for the FAQ?): I'd like to donate, but I hate Paypal. (Soon, I'll have a credit card!) What shall I do?

Greets!
Mitsch

[Auria]

About aborting race when a player is one lap behind others, I'm not against it but I'd like to hear opinions from more people

Regarding donations, I'm sorry, we are hosted by Sourceforge and as far as I know they only allow Paypal donations

[hikari.to.yami]

About aborting race when a player is one lap behind others, I'm not against it but I'd like to hear opinions from more people

I say, if we abort the race when the player left far behind will bring disappointment for some people. You know, like "Hey, I still wanna finish the race even if I left far behind". It will also bring some confusion for some new players.

If someone could prove that such feature will be practically useful (for some people, e.g. child) then this feature should be turned off by default.

[hiker]

About aborting race when a player is one lap behind others, I'm not against it but I'd like to hear opinions from more people

I think it should be essential in networking races, since it's much more difficult to find out what is happening. It might just be that the other person has lost connection completely, or had to go away from the computer etc. With no easy way of communicating between people (i.e. not every one might have voice chat even if we supported it, people might use gamepads on a Media PC with no keyboard at hand) we have to avoid that people start log off because they have to wait another 2 minutes before they can play.

For local racing/split screen I'd suggest that we add a new item in the in-race menu: if one kart has finished the race, you will have the option to 'finish' the race, in which case the current ranking would be used (with extrapolated finishing times for the players). Perhaps still active player karts should get last positions?? The first condition (that one kart has finished the race) is meant to avoid that people can just stop a race anytime they have a good rank, e.g. just at start they might up in position 1). The 2nd condition would be useful if people are too far behind and they don't want to finish a particular race, but want to keep on going in a grand prix. Iirc there was already a request for this here on the forum. I've created a ticket for this (https://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/super ... ticket/486).

As always comments/suggestions welcome!

Cheers,
Joerg

[hiker]

Hi,

thanks for your feedback. Our kid is too young (3.5 years) to really play STK, but what I often do is play with her: she presses accelerate and has control of the fire button, I do the rest But admittedly your kid is too old for this I guess

If it's not too hard to implement: The "invisible walls"-idea and the "automatic drift mode" sounds great to me and if you prevent the AI from attacking children, maybe it would already be enough to push the small players of STK.

I assume that you do indeed use the easy difficulty settings? In this case the AI will not use nitro, use items randomly (i.e. not trying to use them at a good moment or aim at players), and accelerate less than the player can.

I am not sure if invisible walls are the way to go, it:

• is a lot more work (unless we create the walls from automatically, but these kid of walls would likely not be smooth enough, i.e. you might get stuck in in invisible corner)
• leads to inconsistencies and difficult programming (e.g. should the wall be only around for certain players? If so, what happens if one 'wall-less' kart pushes the kart that has walls into a wall)
• might cause more collisions and make driving actually more difficult (though that needs some testing to see if this is really the case)
• might be frustrating if you want to see a certain model closer (e.g. a certain bunny is the main point of interest for our kid) but you can't go there.

What about letting the AI do the steering? Though that wouldn't be that easy to implement either

I don't think that a less challanging AI is the right way to go. It may be allright for a "children-only"-round, but my intension was to equal my and my son's chance to win, if we're playing together… Just my 2 cents…

We have someone working on the AI (soonish), and part of the goal is to make the AI more adaptive. To a certain degree this will result in 'rubber banding' (if the AI is ahead, it might drive slower). That might actually help a lot in your case. Also setting the 'difficulty' per kart would help (atm difficulty not only affects the AI, it also changes the game speed, so karts on higher speed driver faster). So your kid could use a faster kart - but of course the downside is that it is harder to steer then.

As a quick solution you can modify the kart.xml file of the kart you use to have a lower maximum speed. Copy the lines:

{l Code}: {l Select All Code}

    <!-- Speed and acceleration related values: power and max-speed (in m/s)
         have 3 values, one for low, medium, and hard.
         brake-factor: Value used when braking. max-speed-reverse-ratio is
         the percentage of max speed for reverse gear. -->
    <engine power="400 450 500"  max-speed="15 20 23" brake-factor="11.0"
            max-speed-reverse-ratio="0.3"/>


into the kart.xml file of the kart you prefer to use (before the </kart> of the file), and modify the max-speed values, and also perhaps the power (which affect acceleration). Then your kart will be slower, and you can try to tune those values so that you have a challenging game.

This is not an ideal solution, but might work for you.

I am not sure if selecting different difficulties for different players will be implemented any time soon (if at all), since it would change the way the gui works, and for the near future at least I don't think we will have time for that (but as always: contributions welcome ).

Cheers,
Joerg

[III]

On the other side of the coin, I'd like to see a mode where the game is harder to beat. A lot of times I'll drive BigBuckBunny (which is incredibly sensitive to being bumped by other cars or lightly nicking a wall) to make it more of a challenge. Maybe allowing the AIs to go just a shade faster would do the trick, perhaps in the acceleration config file (if that allowed >1 as a value).

[Auria]

On the other side of the coin, I'd like to see a mode where the game is harder to beat. A lot of times I'll drive BigBuckBunny (which is incredibly sensitive to being bumped by other cars or lightly nicking a wall) to make it more of a challenge. Maybe allowing the AIs to go just a shade faster would do the trick, perhaps in the acceleration config file (if that allowed >1 as a value).

this is definitely planned too

[III]

On the other side of the coin, I'd like to see a mode where the game is harder to beat. A lot of times I'll drive BigBuckBunny (which is incredibly sensitive to being bumped by other cars or lightly nicking a wall) to make it more of a challenge. Maybe allowing the AIs to go just a shade faster would do the trick, perhaps in the acceleration config file (if that allowed >1 as a value).

this is definitely planned too

Outstanding!

[juliet120STK]

I prefer fast karts lolz