I personally, as in first person know people who quit working on projects because of all of this stuff.
It is really a sad state of affairs when logical people lose their sanctuary from the world of emotionally reactive people.
Sure, ideally people would not use language that is abusive and hateful... but what counts as such is very much up to debate and also regionally highly different (incl. language barriers).
And people don't change over night
does that mean everyone has to always watch his or her language in what is often perceived as a friendly exchange between close colleagues?
A Free software mailing list is after all not a corporate or government office...
I think where the current problem comes from, is that what used to be understood as just cringy bad jokes (and yes if there are too many of them a place becomes toxic) and people would move on, is now misunderstood as some sort of political statement
So what used to be a awkward comment in passing suddenly becomes some sort of public statement that can be weaponized against the person including people losing their jobs and so on.
the chilling effects on everyone are very noticeable.
P.S.: I have also grown to dislike the term SJW, as it has very much been co-opted by the alt-right by now. However it used to pretty accurately describe a certain type of toxic behavior in online communities.
If this hasn't shown significant decrease since the adoption of the CoC, your premise is wrong. You may not like them but they are not ruining software development.
dulsi {l Wrote}:SJWs haven't altered software development. There were always unwritten codes of conduct. They were very relaxed but you could have gotten kicked out of a group before the CoCs were adopted. Since they have been adopted, has there been a massive exodus or discussions greatly diminished? I think the answer is no. The kernel is probably the easiest to examine. You could check the number of patches being merged and the number of posts on the mailing lists. If this hasn't shown significant decrease since the adoption of the CoC, your premise is wrong. You may not like them but they are not ruining software development.
why do you always assume the worst in people?
Not everyone is dog-whistling and a hidden Nazi.
They might just have a bad day or thoughtlessly translated a idiom from their language that is perfectly acceptable and understood in their native tongue etc.
I personally do feel the chilling effect because I am not into virtue signaling, but realize that things I write on certain platforms (Mastodon etc.) can be very easily taken out of context and attract people that I otherwise never had anything to do with.
but there were some instances of really toxic discussions in the comments that mostly took the fun out of it.
Julius {l Wrote}:While I agree generally, I think the Linux kernel development might not be the best place to look at as it is mostly driven by commercial interests these days, which nearly all contributors being on payroll of large corporations. Yes the recent case of Linus Torwalds was highly publicized and as the founder he certainly took some undue liberties in his communication style... but for all the others it has long been a corporate affair with little "community" spirit.
Julius {l Wrote}:Somewhat related video: https://youtu.be/P55t6eryY3g
dulsi {l Wrote}:Julius {l Wrote}:While I agree generally, I think the Linux kernel development might not be the best place to look at as it is mostly driven by commercial interests these days, which nearly all contributors being on payroll of large corporations. Yes the recent case of Linus Torwalds was highly publicized and as the founder he certainly took some undue liberties in his communication style... but for all the others it has long been a corporate affair with little "community" spirit.
Then pick another project that added a code of conduct. Python added a code of conduct in 2013. Clearly it hasn't ruined development on the project. If that one is still too commercial, I'm open to other suggestions.
onpon4 {l Wrote}:but there were some instances of really toxic discussions in the comments that mostly took the fun out of it.
I'd also be curious of any examples you have for this one.
All years ago and I don't want to dig them up again.
onpon4 {l Wrote}:What matters is intent.
drummyfish {l Wrote}:The "SJW" situation is making me very sad
Lately I've found myself bullied in many parts of the internet (e.g. raddle.me) just for asking questions, in a completely civil way, about why such a huge censorship and witch hunts are taking place. I genuinely want everyone to coexist peacefully, I am a pacifist and I love all living beings, and it's really hurting me when people attack me for simply asking questions.
I am very anxious now about the future not only of software development, but of the whole world, seeing the insanity and fanaticism of the movements such as LGBT or feminists. Of the whole west. I do not hate women nor do I hate gay people, I just can't agree with movements based on spreading fear and cancelling people. This always leads to fascism. I think very dark times are ahead.
I am literally afraid to collaborate with anyone, partly due to possible copyright disputes (yes, despite licenses) and partly to things like COCs. Just as free software started to show the power of collaboration, a certain group of religious people are putting an end to it by dictating who is allowed to collaborate.
onpon4 {l Wrote}:Second: "cancelling" is a right-wing term which really means "not giving support to shitty people", as if to imply that public figures are owed support no matter what they do. Quite frankly, I'm not obligated to support public figures at all, and to act as if I'm doing wrong by "cancelling" (no longer following) someone because I frankly think they're shitty, I honestly don't know what to tell you, because that would imply that I'm also doing wrong by not buying music that I don't like, or something.
First of all it ["cancelling"] is not a right-wing term, but rather a radical feminist one
And it is specifically not about withdrawing support (that would be a boycott), but about attacking the person (as opposed to the statement or idea) and trying to get them fired or otherwise into personal trouble that would prevent them from further taking part in the public debate, aka "cancel" their contributions.
Here is the ban: https://raddle.me/f/meta/123388/policy- ... stream-and
The feeling I get from this is "you're either with us or against us", which is why SJWs don't mind your anti-SJW phase as long as you're now an obedient resource they can use. Once you cross that fine border to the enemy line, you'll go from a friend to the literal Hitler and they'll want to eat you alive.
LGBT definitely is a political movement
they have their own philosophies and very actively participate in forcefully promoting them, while all of LGBT philosophies certainly don't come naturally with being a sexual minority.
I'm talking like a right winger because it just sounds cool, but really I am a super leftist trust me, even too extreme for most normie leftists, I want absolute peace, equality, hippie communist society without moneys and governments etc.
So I am really saying it is wrong for people to not want me in a community for simply questioning some of their rules
It's wrong in the same way a community would decline a person just because he's gay, or because he likes fishing.
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