tempAnon093 {l Wrote}:That's looking excellent, actually!
tempAnon093 {l Wrote}: Coming up with a name may be hard because the level is so detailed that it has many different parts (city, countryside, factory, coast), so it's hard to find words which describe the whole track. (...)
tempAnon093 {l Wrote}: Is the rural section bigger than the rest, or do the areas have about the same size?
GunChleoc {l Wrote}:Just from the screenshots, I'd say 1 or 4 would make a natural starting point, because they have a gate.
fracture {l Wrote}:Looking decent so far. When are you going to release a demo of the track (like Sven did with new fort magma)?
SvenAndreasBelting {l Wrote}:Hi
the track looks very promising so far!
I like the general style of the track and most of the models do look really nice. I'm looking forward to test the track
The only thing I noticed is that some of the textures are looking a bit to "clean"/"computer generated" in my opinion.
Maybe you could try to use the gray scale of some other textures and blend them into your textures to get some more interesting looking textures.
But that's only an idea maybe you want your textures to look as they do
Alayan {l Wrote}: I get the feeling you work too much off a checklist. "I must include this, and this, and this", and then you model the different things, and then put them next to each other. A track needs to feel as one entity, not a patch of very different things put together. Trying to get too much of the cultural, architectural and geographical points of interest of a whole country (or many countries for your 1001 nights project) together risks overreaching and losing the feeling of unity a track should give.
Alayan {l Wrote}: It's hard to judge your screenshots. The modelling is of good quality, but there is no proper lighting in your maya screenshots, so it's like minimum graphics settings. With proper lighting, shadows... it may look very good, but it's hard to tell. Rendering would be required to tell more.
Alayan {l Wrote}:You should strongly consider diving into Blender and modelling with Blender 2.83, this would remove this whole porting step from your future projects and would make the export process painless enough that you could give demos and in-game screenshots.
Alayan {l Wrote}:It's hard to judge textures for the same reason, so I won't comment on it. It can't be worse than the terrible textures many STK tracks have anyway.
Alayan {l Wrote}: - Medieval style city gate : why not
- Urban channel : looks very good. I don't like the facebook-like "I like Rodedam" however.
Alayan {l Wrote}: - Coast : it looks like the flowers aren't proper 3D, but this can easily be fixed. The boat that can be seen should be made to move, like Gran Paradisio's airplane : it will make the track more alive. The flag should be altered.
Alayan {l Wrote}: Significant issue : the road is clearly polygonal.
Alayan {l Wrote}: - Rural zone : the houses need paths to the road to feel integrated and not just put on the ground randomly. The completely flat grass is an issue many STK tracks suffer from, but it hurts in this rural section as it's a predominant element.
Alayan {l Wrote}: Also, in a Netherlands theme, the road would make more sense with asphalt/cobbles than dirt. If it directly connects a bunch of buildings, it won't be dirt. Dirt is for true farmroads.
Alayan {l Wrote}: - Look at your screenshot from the top, all your sections are neat rectangles... Give curves more love, and put the farm in a spot where what's behind the barriers will be more visible.
Alayan {l Wrote}: - Factories aren't very exciting architecturally. As your driveline stays outside the buildings anyway, I think it would make more sense to have the road pass in front of the factory (where you can still see the models you did, the logo, and so on) but not on its grounds. Public roads don't have a habit of going through private grounds.
GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:I totally agree. Let's see what the majority think, but I prefer the city gate.
GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:[...]driveline passing through a factory is not new on STK and would be not even the top 20 absurd situations found in official tracks of the game
tempAnon093 {l Wrote}: the factory seems like a nice, short, fun landmark. I don't see an issue with both public and private road being in the track. I was never suspending my disbelief like that, it's a cartoony game.
tempAnon093 {l Wrote}: I do agree with Alayan that so far this feels like a medley of distinct zones with different feelings, like Nostalgia add-on (but not as extreme, of course). It's not enough to bother me so long as the transitions aren't too rapid (and I feel that's where I agree with the 'block'/straight lines criticism), but I think that kind of thing could make it less likely to be added into core, if that's your aim.
tempAnon093 {l Wrote}: I feel Alayan's recommendation of adding stone road in the rural area will help unify the theme a bit, instead of it looking like a patch of green/brown dirt road in the countryside, then changing to a patch of grey factory, then a patch of a colorful city/town urban map. To me it feels like green/tan/grey are the closest to unifying colors for the whole track so far.
GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:I always make my projects trying to put quality for any free game, what cover the main game (STK), but never expcting they will put my track on the main game. It's indifferent. My goal is to make people around the world have fun playng tracks that have themes nobody wanted to create for STK.
GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:But, what are the suggestions to name the track?
tempAnon093 {l Wrote}:GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:I always make my projects trying to put quality for any free game, what cover the main game (STK), but never expcting they will put my track on the main game. It's indifferent. My goal is to make people around the world have fun playng tracks that have themes nobody wanted to create for STK.
Well, I can tell you already that you have done an excellent job of it. Thank you for all the effort you have put in to these tracks (as you can tell, we are excited for them!)
tempAnon093 {l Wrote}:GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:But, what are the suggestions to name the track?
Haha yes, we all went a bit off-topic giving feedback on what we've seen of the track.
tempAnon093 {l Wrote}:I did make a couple of suggestions in the first reply, I did want to suggest something like '[x] Flatlands' but it doesn't sound like a positive name to me.
tempAnon093 {l Wrote}: Town' might also be a good word to describe the whole place. You did give a suggestion with 'Tulip' in it, which I think could become a motif or theme in the map (and they are associated with the Netherlands, which is a nice hint at the track's inspiration). It's a pleasant word for the place, so it fits the STK name theming. Something like Tulip Town could work, and there's lots of places you can add tulips in, in both the rural and urban areas!
GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}: Then, this is not an issue, since that is not the track. That thing is just a poorly modeled plan I put over the terrain to show you where the driveline probably will pass by, I would never do a crap object like that in one of my tracks.
GunChleoc {l Wrote}:Please keep in mind that when people give you comments, it's not to criticise your abilities, but to give you ideas for improving the track. Of course, if you have already improved a point that was brought up, no need to do anything
GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:Alayan {l Wrote}: I get the feeling you work too much off a checklist. "I must include this, and this, and this", and then you model the different things, and then put them next to each other. A track needs to feel as one entity, not a patch of very different things put together. Trying to get too much of the cultural, architectural and geographical points of interest of a whole country (or many countries for your 1001 nights project) together risks overreaching and losing the feeling of unity a track should give.
It's true, but even if this seems weird, it happens in the Netherlands. You will see almost everything togheter If you watch a video showing some Dutch cities: you start seeing a urban place loke the main channel and it buildings and bridges, so the person goes to the city surrounds and you start seeing a pier and next, a big windmill. Believe me: I didn't take that from nothing or from my imagination. Maybe you have been in the Netherlands as tourist, but not everyone on this forum have been there. Anyway, these videos show perfectly what I mean.
Take a look when you have a time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQVkV7JXIEI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-QS_Kh_i6o
GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:Alayan {l Wrote}: - Medieval style city gate : why not
- Urban channel : looks very good. I don't like the facebook-like "I like Rodedam" however.
It's a pity. I thought most would like it. It is a reference to the famous "I Amsterdam"me and I don't know how to replace this sign. Any suggestion?
GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:Alayan {l Wrote}: - Coast : it looks like the flowers aren't proper 3D, but this can easily be fixed. The boat that can be seen should be made to move, like Gran Paradisio's airplane : it will make the track more alive. The flag should be altered.
The flowers are a provisory free texture I found, and I will do my own texture, but this demand some time. The red tanker ship is anchored, but the track will show animated windmills, animated boat (the tourist boat on the main channel), animated trams and, maybe, animated people riding bikes. I think it's a lot of animations.
GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:Alayan {l Wrote}: Also, in a Netherlands theme, the road would make more sense with asphalt/cobbles than dirt. If it directly connects a bunch of buildings, it won't be dirt. Dirt is for true farmroads.
But it's already thus, not? Look at the urban streets and you will see cobbles and asphalt instead dirt road, The only place with dirt road is the rural terrain.
GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:Alayan {l Wrote}: - Look at your screenshot from the top, all your sections are neat rectangles... Give curves more love, and put the farm in a spot where what's behind the barriers will be more visible.
Ok. No problem. I will turn the corners rounded, but this will add a lof of tris.
GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:Alayan {l Wrote}: - Factories aren't very exciting architecturally. As your driveline stays outside the buildings anyway, I think it would make more sense to have the road pass in front of the factory (where you can still see the models you did, the logo, and so on) but not on its grounds. Public roads don't have a habit of going through private grounds.
I will spot the farm instead the factory like you said, but a driveline passing through a factory is not new on STK and would be not even the top 20 absurd situations found in official tracks of the game, since we had or have karts passing through a private farm, a private hacienda, a private mansion, a private classroom, a volcano, a road in the outer space...
GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:I always make my projects trying to put quality for any free game, what cover the main game (STK), but never expcting they will put my track on the main game. It's indifferent. My goal is to make people around the world have fun playng tracks that have themes nobody wanted to create for STK.
GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:The third assumption is about the grassy terrain.
It is a known fact that the rural landscape of the Netherlands has vast flat areas of uncultivated land and only covered with low grass. The problem is that, in any game, whether STK, Asseto Corsa, Formula 1, Euro Truck or any other, the grass is made only of texture and looks like a large wallpaper applied over the terrain. It is no different with STK. Large areas of grassy land look like concrete yard painted green and are monotonous and ugly to see (it is not monotonous or ugly on the other tracks, no one bothers about it, but on my tracks this would be unforgivable), as I will solve this technical deficiency of most games to prevent large areas of grass on my track from appearing dull and ugly to see?
The first solution is to spread several fields of grass in all parts of the land so that everything does not look like a concrete floor painted green. The second solution is to try to add realistic (non-photographic) textures with PBR, to create a visual relief effect.
GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:The fifth observation was made by Alayan and refers to straight corners and supposed polygonal modeling.
Well, I want to make it clear that all modeling is work in progress, and this means that it is not yet completely finished. Therefore, corners of brick buildings and curves will be more rounded, but I need to finish modeling objects first to see how many "tris" the track will have in order not to exceed the 120 k tris limit created by the developers of the previous team.
GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:However, I need to remember that the leader artist of the previous team preferred modeling with very apparent polygons and even criticized my modeling, perfectly round, as something inappropriate for the game. According to him, the correct thing is to make objects with faceted modeling with visible straight edges.
https://forum.freegamedev.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=6934&p=68986&hilit=For+instance+the+TV+VAN+has+an+insane+amount#p68986
Ok, these two examples are different: one is a curve while the other is a aditional object, but It seems that the current developers started a new order and prefers what I have always done.
GunChleoc {l Wrote}:I can't think of a better name suggestion. Tulip Town should do it.
Alayan {l Wrote}:I kind of liked the Tulip Town suggestion. What's good with it is that you can put the relevant flowers both in the urban and rural parts to create an unifying element. I said earlier that I was worried about the track ending up as a patchwork of parts that while related on theme (netherlands) give too different vibes. This could be one way to improve this. Another will be through dominant colors and through some shared models - urban and rural areas are expected to look different, there is some leeway there.
But there could be other variations, like Tulip Road, Tulip Way...
Alayan {l Wrote}:Nice videos, but these are fully urban scenes. There is nothing rural here. The main worry was that the country part of the track would feel patched on the urban part with both giving quite different vibes.
Alayan {l Wrote}: I just read about it. Without the "am" of amsterdam, the word-play doesn't work. In any case, these letters are ugly and are a stylistic break from the normal urban environment. I don't have any replacement suggestion, but I'm not sure anything is really needed.
Alayan {l Wrote}:That would be a decent amount of animation. Animated bikes with people would be a nice touch.
It's nice that you liked the idea.
Alayan {l Wrote}:The trams will also help, do you remember my suggestion on how to place the tram line relative to the driveline ?
GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:Alayan {l Wrote}: Also, in a Netherlands theme, the road would make more sense with asphalt/cobbles than dirt. If it directly connects a bunch of buildings, it won't be dirt. Dirt is for true farmroads.GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:But it's already thus, not? Look at the urban streets and you will see cobbles and asphalt instead dirt road, The only place with dirt road is the rural terrain.Alayan {l Wrote}:My point was that in north-western europe, a road that connects a bunch of houses close to each other is not going to be a dirt road. It might be a really narrow road but it will be asphalted or cobbled, depending on location and when the road was done. Dirt road are exclusive to much less used roads, like private roads, farm roads, forest roads that don't connect anything special... As the country road in your track is shown to connect several houses and mills, it wouldn't be dirt.
Ok. O found exactly visual referrence for this road.GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:Alayan {l Wrote}: - Look at your screenshot from the top, all your sections are neat rectangles... Give curves more love, and put the farm in a spot where what's behind the barriers will be more visible.
Ok. No problem. I will turn the corners rounded, but this will add a lof of tris.
Adding tris ? I'm not sure we understood each other.
I was talking about your general layout, your "minimap" of sorts. Not about individual models. For many models, hard angles make sense (buildings).
GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:Alayan {l Wrote}: - Factories aren't very exciting architecturally. As your driveline stays outside the buildings anyway, I think it would make more sense to have the road pass in front of the factory (where you can still see the models you did, the logo, and so on) but not on its grounds. Public roads don't have a habit of going through private grounds.
I will spot the farm instead the factory like you said, but a driveline passing through a factory is not new on STK and would be not even the top 20 absurd situations found in official tracks of the game, since we had or have karts passing through a private farm, a private hacienda, a private mansion, a private classroom, a volcano, a road in the outer space...
Alayan {l Wrote}:GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:I always make my projects trying to put quality for any free game, what cover the main game (STK), but never expcting they will put my track on the main game. It's indifferent. My goal is to make people around the world have fun playng tracks that have themes nobody wanted to create for STK.
Quality tracks are one big bottleneck for 2.0, so I would like to make use of your work for the main game. My suggestions aim to help improve the gameplay and the visual style so that it can be a top-quality track.
Alayan {l Wrote}:GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:The third assumption is about the grassy terrain.
It is a known fact that the rural landscape of the Netherlands has vast flat areas of uncultivated land and only covered with low grass. The problem is that, in any game, whether STK, Asseto Corsa, Formula 1, Euro Truck or any other, the grass is made only of texture and looks like a large wallpaper applied over the terrain. It is no different with STK. Large areas of grassy land look like concrete yard painted green and are monotonous and ugly to see (it is not monotonous or ugly on the other tracks, no one bothers about it, but on my tracks this would be unforgivable), as I will solve this technical deficiency of most games to prevent large areas of grass on my track from appearing dull and ugly to see?
The first solution is to spread several fields of grass in all parts of the land so that everything does not look like a concrete floor painted green. The second solution is to try to add realistic (non-photographic) textures with PBR, to create a visual relief effect.
This "large wallpaper" and "concret yard painted green" effects are exactly what worried me with the grassy area.
Some other ideas on how to avoid this : https://github.com/supertuxkart/stk-code/issues/3053
Alayan {l Wrote}: Corner of brick buildings may be squared if your matching irl models are too, that was not my concern. It was the road shape that was my concern.
Alayan {l Wrote}:GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:However, I need to remember that the leader artist of the previous team preferred modeling with very apparent polygons and even criticized my modeling, perfectly round, as something inappropriate for the game. According to him, the correct thing is to make objects with faceted modeling with visible straight edges.
https://forum.freegamedev.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=6934&p=68986&hilit=For+instance+the+TV+VAN+has+an+insane+amount#p68986
Ok, these two examples are different: one is a curve while the other is a aditional object, but It seems that the current developers started a new order and prefers what I have always done.
In my opinion, there are two main limitation on how accurate modelling can be : the time required to model the object (some things can be partially automated, e.g. using symmetries, height maps...) and the in-game performance.
I looked at the example you linked, and visually at least I prefer your model over sam's suggestion. I don't know how much this is visible in-game, but I suspect yours are hardly noticeable while sam's are if you look at the VAN. That said, your own model had excessive detail for the tip of the antenna. The borders of the parabola are very visible, the very tip of the antenna not so much. So when I'm saying more details is better, it's in context of what's noticeable of course, if it makes hardly any visual difference in-game even when pausing in front of the object and looking straight at it, it crosses the line to not worth it.
For STK 2.0, hopefuly, we will fix the engine so that having a lot of scene nodes doesn't trash performance. Currently, LOD is rather ineffective at improving perf because it means even more objects to consider. In an improved engine, LOD should allow to use lower-poly models when at a high draw distance or when using a lower geometry detail setting. This means that highly detailed modelling would not be a problem for performance.
GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:So, I need to spot a garden with tulips or a road near/passing through a tulip field If this is the pick by the community.
tempAnon093 {l Wrote}:GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:So, I need to spot a garden with tulips or a road near/passing through a tulip field If this is the pick by the community.
In the urban areas, I think it would be easiest to add tulips into gardens or maybe add small pots of them at the front of buildings, or planters on some streets. example 1, example 2, example 3. There are many options, depending on how the urban part looks.
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