Las Dunas Stadium

Re: Las Dunas Stadium

Postby GeekPenguinBR » 28 Dec 2015, 00:11

WillemS {l Wrote}:
GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:(...) but nobody wants to drive on a track when you never win or never lose (...)


Indeed, not for finished tracks. But for WIP tracks, such things are perfectly fine in my opinion!... I really liked doing that, just to see the awesome artistic progress being made...If you just say "hey, this is a WIP track, note that you can't finish a lap because the track is not complete" people can decide for themselves whether they want to try this.

In any case, I'm looking forward to seeing the finished track! :)


Hi, again!

It's good to see someone with this kind of opinion. However, not all agree with that. As a marketer, I prefer to know what is the opinion of the target public. Then, I start posting concepts, renderings, etc., but not everyone like this. Unfortunatelly, we can't please everyone.

Actually, I tried to release the track some times on this forum, but the upload didn't work even if the counter said 100%. :( No file or link available. I don't know what's the limit for uploading here. The zip file has 21 MBytes.
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium

Postby capricom45 » 28 Dec 2015, 17:46

GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:
WillemS {l Wrote}:
GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:(...) but nobody wants to drive on a track when you never win or never lose (...)


Indeed, not for finished tracks. But for WIP tracks, such things are perfectly fine in my opinion!... I really liked doing that, just to see the awesome artistic progress being made...If you just say "hey, this is a WIP track, note that you can't finish a lap because the track is not complete" people can decide for themselves whether they want to try this.

In any case, I'm looking forward to seeing the finished track! :)


Hi, again!

It's good to see someone with this kind of opinion. However, not all agree with that. As a marketer, I prefer to know what is the opinion of the target public. Then, I start posting concepts, renderings, etc., but not everyone like this. Unfortunatelly, we can't please everyone.

Actually, I tried to release the track some times on this forum, but the upload didn't work even if the counter said 100%. :( No file or link available. I don't know what's the limit for uploading here. The zip file has 21 MBytes.


try uploading the track to OneDrive, Google Drive, Dropbox, Box.net or any other cloud storage website, and post the link to the file. (That's what I sometimes did on the forum/#STK IRC channel) it might help
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium

Postby GeekPenguinBR » 29 Dec 2015, 22:42

capricom45 {l Wrote}:try uploading the track to OneDrive, Google Drive,


Hi! capricorn45.

I did it already; thanks for your tip. Now, the track is availabe to be tested. :) See the message bellow.
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium - Test the track

Postby GeekPenguinBR » 30 Dec 2015, 00:02

Hi, Everyone!

You can test our track now. :D

This track is intended for intermediate and experienced gamers. It's not so easy to drive IMO, but, I think that any kid with enough experience in games is able to drive easily. As showed on my demo video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltz5jGr_-bM), the drivelines are perfectly drivable. Everything depends on your skills, but I believe that everyone will find this track easy to drive on after some laps.

Here is te link for the track:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B62JM ... zJ6NFNjRkE

Notes
You may attribute notes for the track based on your view. So, you have 3 (three) aspects and 6 (five) notes:

Level of Difficult: 0 (very easy), 1 (easy), 2 (average), 3 (a bit dificult), 4 (difficult) and 5 (very difficult)
Level of Fun: 0 (very boring), 1 (boring), 3 (average), 3 (cool), 4 (funny) and 5 (exciting)
Graphics: 0 (ugly), 1 (disappointing), 2 (average), 3 (beautiful), 4 (beautiful) and 5 (stunning)

Then, your notes may be posted thus (for instance): 3-3-2 (average difficult, average fun and average graphics).

Thanks in advance! :)
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium - Test the track

Postby samuncle » 30 Dec 2015, 02:41

Finally we can test !

O_O I'm honestly amazed by the amount of details you put in the track.

Okay so i have a few thing to say, and I'm kinda heartbroken to write that but

0) I really hate saying that but it seems you forgot the number one priority: make the track fun to drive
From a gameplay point of view Very sadly the track is unplayable. I tried with the highest difficulty and it seems uncontrollable. Sometime the driveline is under the track which breaks the automatic rescue.
That's exactly why I ask people to share as soon as possible their tracks so we can detect those issue before going into further work.


1) The track is gorgeous and you really nailed a tons of details into the stadium. The Gimp cameraman are very cool, I also like all the logos, all the details. Congratulation on that part. It's really amazing. We also should have a way to display the buffer on a texture so we can emulate a giant screen

2) I think there is too much banana in some sections of the track. We should avoid to make something "tooooooo harder" by simply throwing a lot of banana

3) Sadly it seems you didn't use our generic texture which are preconfigured with materials/normal maps etc. It might have been a good idea to use some of them to cut down the amount of work (for instance the suspension of the monster truck can be a simple generic dark metal texture).

4) It seems you also not used objects from the library which also can cut down the time to create a map.

5) There is nothing outside the stadium (more on that later)

My suggestions:
Most important: Make the track fun to play (by making it wider) and be sure jumps works from easy difficulty to supertux. Starting by resizing the road should be a good start
-> Start with an empty blend
-> import only game play elements like the jumps and resize them until it's possible to easily make a lap
-> Make sure we can't go easily outside. The landing strips are ridiculously small
-> Avoid putting too much bananas and make sure the AI work on your track

Work a bit more on the materials and submit your objects for our library. I'm interested to use them in our core game.
-> the school bus (for instance the metal of the bus could be a bit more shiny). Don't forget you can use Normal map/specular map/gloss map
-> Wilber filming the race
-> pile of tires
-> the monster truck
-> the blimp
-> The caravan could be a bit more detailed
-> the giant sunshine cola can
-> the TV bus

Once our objects are included officially in supertuxkart you can start to use them around the stadium. One big advantage is if we update the object it's automatically updated on the whole game (not only in your track but in every track where it's used).

You can also work on the skybox and make a nice night environment. IMHO this is really a fun part. I just added some volumetric and IBL to your track for fun
light.jpg

You can also cut down the amount of point light by using emit texture to fake the big projector around the stadium. They don't really influence the ground where the player is and with the emit texture they will always look like they are flooding the stadium.
The sky is a bit boring. The surrounding of the stadium could be a bit more detailed with buildings, etc. I know in reality inside a stadium we don't really see what's outside but we don't have to stick at 100% to reality. A few buildings (only the top) maybe a mountain in the distance, or an antenna can do the job.

There could be also a giant structure to old the roof. The giant screen should be bigger. I know you respected the real life size but in stk we can sometime cheat with the scale of things.

You can also add an edge split modifier to make edges more crispy (this picture is self explanatory

The bench and the public looks very boring :(. The texture is boring and nothing changes. To break the repetitive pattern you can try to:
1) Add entrance, WIP bench, big flags of the government/supertuxkart/racing cup/whatever)
2) Make the public animated, for instance by jumps or some kind of wave. Not sure how to do that, but it would be interesting to do some research
3) Add flashes (also some research should be done
4) Add projectors moving etc http://www.eventlife.com/upload/images/ ... -venue.png
5) using generic texture to add details easily.
6) some texture are way too dark like arena_race_director.png. Don't forget it's mostly up to the engine to make the light. If the texture is 100% black or white the engine can't really lit it more or make it darker.
7) you can add tons of moving textures for the giant screens, the sponsors, etc. If there is one track where moving texture are perfect, it's this one.

Finally you can also add details, if I was you, I would make the monster truck jump or do laps around the track (in a separated road from the race).
The blimp is also very small. It's a perfect excuse to make something big in the sky with floodlights. https://information2share.files.wordpre ... kyhook.jpg
Don't forget, we take the reality, we are inspired by reality but then we do something epic !

These are recommendations. You are free to follow them, I really hope you aren't too sad by my long and maybe harsh review but I tried to be honest and to push you forward to make something good.

To be honest the playability is currently the biggest issue. I just want to say, I did 3 time cocoa temple for similar issues. So i know how hard and how long it can take.

Sam
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium - Test the track

Postby samuncle » 30 Dec 2015, 02:42

Oh btw, I'm willing to help you for including your objects in our library. Just submit them on the appropriate forum

and for your ranking, not sure if I can put a note but I will try


Level of Difficult: 5 (very difficult)
Level of Fun: 1 (boring)
Graphics: 3 (beautiful)

Oh a very very very very small detail. The temperature on the weather screen is in Fahrenheit. In the SuperTuxKart universe everything is in metric :P (that's cherry picking)
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium - Test the track

Postby XGhost » 30 Dec 2015, 02:51

That's good news to hear!

I tested your track, much wow! I would say something like 4-3-4.

Just my little thoughts...

Level of Difficult:
Very interesting construction of driving circuit which keeps the track varied! Some tricky edges and curves. --> I like that.

Level of Fun:
More karts - more fun --> fits this track very well. For my taste way too much of bananas and far too little of presents. With 3 AI karts I'm driving into 2-3 bananas in sequence which is annoying. Also, the high Jump over the school bus is cool but sometimes ridiculous hard to handle. When doing right, I can use it to jump over half of the map :) .

Graphics:
A topic just too huge to give it just a review-number overall.
I make it short (I haven't looked into the files yet - this is just what I see ingame on maximum graphics): Textures seems very nice, You have succesfully worked with glossmaps! Textures complexity - good. 3D objects - seems nicely done. 3D object complexity - not very high. Track complexity (amount of objects and special effects in it) - good (rather high when comparing to tracks from STK 0.8). Special effects (particles etc.) - fire is cool, so, nothing to complain about.

GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:As showed on my demo video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltz5jGr_-bM), the drivelines are perfectly drivable. Everything depends on your skills (...)

:lol: Oh, I see what you did there...
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium - Test the track

Postby samuncle » 30 Dec 2015, 02:59

Oh btw, a small precision I tested on the maximum difficulty (the supertux) (and all track should be playable on the maximum difficulty). And the jumps are one of the main problem.

With the easy difficulty it's a nice challenging track and perfectly playable (and fun). I really enjoyed it (except bananas and the reset under the map).
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium - Test the track

Postby 0zone0ne » 30 Dec 2015, 03:07

The scenery and graphics look great, I think all they need is an extra layer of polish to make them look clean and tidy. You could possibly include more moving objects to make the arena feel more alive (such as flashes coming from the crowd, a helicopter circling around, moving screens, etc.).
However, I think the layout of the track itself has some big issues. Here are my suggestions:

First of all, I think you need to add longer straights before and after the jump. Right now, there is not enough time for the player to align themselves before they go over the jump, because the jump is placed directly after a curve. This caused me to fly off the track and miss the landing quite a few times. I also found that there was not enough time after the jump to get ready for the next corner, causing me to hit the wall every time.
Even if I manage to align myself before the jump, the landing stretch is far too thin to reliably land on - I think you should widen this part of the track as well.

Upon falling off the track after attempting the jump and landing on the grass, the game did not automatically reset me. Upon manually resetting, I was placed back down in a grassy area slightly away from the track, but could not drive anywhere as I was trapped by an invisible barrier. There were 3 or 4 of the AI karts stuck in the area as well. I was unable to move out of this area, because resetting always put me back to the same spot. I was forced to restart the race.

Last thing for now: the dense clusters of bananas in the middle of the road felt really... spammy. I was zipping around the track, trying to get my speed up, then all of a sudden I needed to slow almost completely in order to avoid the bananas which were densely covering the entire road. Not even a single AI kart could dodge through the bananas. The bananas don't add any difficulty to the race - really they're just annoying. Using far less bananas at a lower density would reduce this problem, however I think there are more clever uses for bananas.
For example, placing some bananas around the outside of a curve to force the player to stay on the inside of the track, but also placing item boxes or boost canisters near the bananas (near the outside of the track but not quite as far out as the bananas). This example creates a risk/reward situation, where the player could risk going near the bananas, but be rewarded with an item or boost (as opposed to just staying on the inside of the curve). This helps the track to be engaging and fun. You could also place a line of alternating bananas and boost canisters, to make the player weave in and out of the bananas if they want extra boost - again, risk/reward. This is a big component of racing track design and definitely something I think people should play around with more often.
Last edited by 0zone0ne on 30 Dec 2015, 03:42, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium - Test the track

Postby samuncle » 30 Dec 2015, 03:23

oh and there are issue with texture optimization. Some textures are way too small compared to the amount of detail they have (like concrete2.png could be bigger).

Other are waaaaaaaaaay too big compared to the amount of detail, like the stars stars_red.png, which is ridiculously big for a very tiny detail (it's almost only a vector image).

This take VRAM on the GPU. We need to be careful by how we use the resources.
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium - Test the track

Postby GeekPenguinBR » 30 Dec 2015, 06:54

samuncle {l Wrote}:Finally we can test !

O_O I'm honestly amazed by the amount of details you put in the track.


Thanks a lot. :)


samuncle {l Wrote}:the track is unplayable...I tried with the highest difficulty and it seems uncontrollable.

I totally disagree with you, of course and I think the guys who played it disagree too. The track is (actually, was) difficult to drive (That's was my intention, because I find all the tracks very easy. Well,maybe I have exaggerated...), but I and my brother, we drive on it normally. My brother finds it very enjoyable and even a bit easy (Ok! Maybe he's a bit crazy, he learned Russian by himself, he find bugs on scripts even if he never learned programming), but I don't think this track is very difficult to drive. Much less, impossible and I think the guys who played it disagree too.

samuncle {l Wrote}:Sometime the driveline is under the track which breaks the automatic rescue.

Do you mean on the ramps? :think: I thought you would fix thinks like this for us, but, the track will be a bitresized before any new change.


samuncle {l Wrote}:The track is gorgeous and you really nailed a tons of details into the stadium.

Thank you again. :D To be honest, my main goal was to show a track as beautiful as possible, close to the level of any commercial game. ;)


samuncle {l Wrote}:The Gimp cameraman are very cool,

This was a Tuxkardriver idea since the Wilbers are the image manipulators. It couldn't be more appropriated.

samuncle {l Wrote}:I also like all the logos, all the details. Congratulation on that part. It's really amazing.

:D

samuncle {l Wrote}:We also should have a way to display the buffer on a texture so we can emulate a giant screen

This would ne very nice.


samuncle {l Wrote}:I think there is too much banana in some sections of the track.

I agree too and this will be changed.

samuncle {l Wrote}:you didn't use our generic texture which are preconfigured with materials/normal maps etc. It might have been a good idea to use some of them to cut down the amount of work (for instance the suspension of the monster truck can be a simple generic dark metal texture).

I agree, but I don't know where all the textures are. I have found some, but I can't see others. Anyway, this is easy to replace all the unnecessary by some textures of the game.

samuncle {l Wrote}:It seems you also not used objects from the library which also can cut down the time to create a map.

Which object, for instance? I really can't remember only one that could be useful here, because the existing objects don't fit this environment IMO.

samuncle {l Wrote}:There is nothing outside the stadium...The sky is a bit boring. The surrounding of the stadium could be a bit more detailed with buildings, etc. ...A few buildings (only the top) maybe a mountain in the distance, or an antenna can do the job...

I thought about this, of course (I even made some buildings and a giant ferris wheel). I have discussed this with Tuxkartdriver and we concluded that the stadium itself has a lot of objects inside, so adding others outside could result in a visual pollution.

samuncle {l Wrote}:Make the track fun to play (by making it wider) and be sure jumps works from easy difficulty to supertux. Starting by resizing the road should be a good start

The track is already resized and, IMO, it's easier now. You will see.


samuncle {l Wrote}:Work a bit more on the materials

Which?


samuncle {l Wrote}:...submit your objects for our library. I'm interested to use them in our core game.

For sure, but you could do this for us, since you have more practice on this. You have already the files and textures. So, this will not take much time for someone with experience. :cool:

samuncle {l Wrote}:The caravan could be a bit more detailed

Sorry, how it could be? It's a "copy" of a real one. So, all the necessary details are there and I can't see how to improve. The old golden cars are poorly finished because they are just carcasses to jump over, but the trailler...I really don't see them less detailed.

samuncle {l Wrote}:You can also work on the skybox and make a nice night environment. IMHO this is really a fun part. I just added some volumetric and IBL to your track for fun
light.jpg

Do you mean adding lights and fog? I liked the collor, the stars and the crescent moon.


samuncle {l Wrote}:There could be also a giant structure to old the roof. The giant screen should be bigger.

I didn't understand what do you mean on the first. The big screen may be a bit larger, but just a bit. If not, the driver can't see them when driving over the grape rampage.

samuncle {l Wrote}:You can also add an edge split modifier to make edges more crispy

Which objects are crispy? :o

samuncle {l Wrote}:The bench and the public looks very boring :(.
The texture is boring and nothing changes. To break the repetitive pattern you can try to:
1) Add entrance, WIP bench, big flags of the government/supertuxkart/racing cup/whatever)
2) Make the public animated, for instance by jumps or some kind of wave. Not sure how to do that, but it would be interesting to do some research
3) Add flashes (also some research should be done
4) Add projectors moving etc

I like the ideas, but you should give me this list last week, when Santa Claus came on my home; so, I could ask him this all. :lol: :lol: You are overestimating us; we are not Nintendo! We are just two guys making our first track.

By the way: the crowd may look boring, but it's even not one of the main 40 objects in this stadium. As I said, I don't know how to animate it.

samuncle {l Wrote}:some texture are way too dark like arena_race_director.png.

I agree. I will try to make it lighter.

samuncle {l Wrote}:you can add tons of moving textures for the giant screens, the sponsors, etc. If there is one track where moving texture are perfect, it's this one.

Sorry, but we don't know how to do this.The only one animation that Tuxkartdriver knows he already added (the arrows and the list of the racers).

samuncle {l Wrote}:Finally you can also add details, if I was you, I would make the monster truck jump or do laps around the track (in a separated road from the race).

Again, we don't know how to make this. The monster truck needs animated wheels and we don't have idea how to do this.

samuncle {l Wrote}:The blimp is also very small. It's a perfect excuse to make something big in the sky with floodlights.

Well, maybe a bit larger, but not much because this kind of blimp (for use in stadiums) is unmanned and RC.


samuncle {l Wrote}:These are recommendations. You are free to follow them, I really hope you aren't too sad by my long and maybe harsh review but I tried to be honest and to push you forward to make something good.

I don't find this text harsh, but some suggestions are beyond our current skills and knowledge. Anyway, we have other project for STK that we consider more important than this one. I will send some renderings to you.
Last edited by GeekPenguinBR on 04 Jan 2016, 07:25, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium - Test the track

Postby capricom45 » 30 Dec 2015, 06:57

I ran into some issues with this track

{l Code}: {l Select All Code}
[warn   ] track: Music information file 'jumping_to_the_stars.music' not found for track 'Las Dunas Stadium' - ignored.

[info   ] Singleton: Destroyed singleton.
[warn   ] EventHandler: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[warn   ] Irrlicht: PNG warning: Interlace handling should be turned on when using png_read_image
[warn   ] EventHandler: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[warn   ] Irrlicht: Could not open file of texture: screen2 gloss.jpg
[error  ] irr_driver: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[error  ] irr_driver: Texture 'screen2 gloss.jpg' not found.
[warn   ] EventHandler: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[warn   ] Irrlicht: Could not open file of texture: screen2 gloss.jpg
[error  ] irr_driver: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[error  ] irr_driver: Texture 'screen2 gloss.jpg' not found.
[warn   ] EventHandler: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[warn   ] Irrlicht: Could not open file of texture: screen2 gloss.jpg
[error  ] irr_driver: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[error  ] irr_driver: Texture 'screen2 gloss.jpg' not found.
[warn   ] EventHandler: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[warn   ] Irrlicht: Could not open file of texture: screen1 gloss.jpg
[error  ] irr_driver: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[error  ] irr_driver: Texture 'screen1 gloss.jpg' not found.
[warn   ] EventHandler: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[warn   ] Irrlicht: Could not open file of texture: screen1 gloss.jpg
[error  ] irr_driver: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[error  ] irr_driver: Texture 'screen1 gloss.jpg' not found.
[warn   ] EventHandler: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[warn   ] Irrlicht: Could not open file of texture: screen1 gloss.jpg
[error  ] irr_driver: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[error  ] irr_driver: Texture 'screen1 gloss.jpg' not found.
[warn   ] EventHandler: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[warn   ] Irrlicht: Could not open file of texture: Wilber gloss.jpg
[error  ] irr_driver: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[error  ] irr_driver: Texture 'Wilber gloss.jpg' not found.
[warn   ] EventHandler: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[warn   ] Irrlicht: Could not open file of texture: Wilber gloss.jpg
[error  ] irr_driver: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[error  ] irr_driver: Texture 'Wilber gloss.jpg' not found.
[warn   ] EventHandler: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[warn   ] Irrlicht: Could not open file of texture: Wilber gloss.jpg
[error  ] irr_driver: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[error  ] irr_driver: Texture 'Wilber gloss.jpg' not found.
[warn   ] EventHandler: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[warn   ] Irrlicht: Could not open file of texture: Wilber gloss.jpg
[error  ] irr_driver: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[error  ] irr_driver: Texture 'Wilber gloss.jpg' not found.
[warn   ] EventHandler: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[warn   ] Irrlicht: Could not open file of texture: Wilber gloss.jpg
[error  ] irr_driver: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[error  ] irr_driver: Texture 'Wilber gloss.jpg' not found.
[warn   ] EventHandler: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[warn   ] Irrlicht: Could not open file of texture: trophy gloss
[error  ] irr_driver: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[error  ] irr_driver: Texture 'trophy gloss' not found.
[error  ] EventHandler: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[error  ] Irrlicht: Could not load mesh, because file could not be opened: : cone.b3d
[error  ] irr_driver: Cannot load mesh <cone.b3d>

[warn   ] TrackObjectManager: Could not load track object. Reason : Model 'cone.b3d' cannot be found
[error  ] EventHandler: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[error  ] Irrlicht: Could not load mesh, because file could not be opened: : cone.b3d
[error  ] irr_driver: Cannot load mesh <cone.b3d>

[warn   ] TrackObjectManager: Could not load track object. Reason : Model 'cone.b3d' cannot be found
[error  ] EventHandler: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[error  ] Irrlicht: Could not load mesh, because file could not be opened: : cone.b3d
[error  ] irr_driver: Cannot load mesh <cone.b3d>

[warn   ] TrackObjectManager: Could not load track object. Reason : Model 'cone.b3d' cannot be found
[error  ] EventHandler: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[error  ] Irrlicht: Could not load mesh, because file could not be opened: : cone.b3d
[error  ] irr_driver: Cannot load mesh <cone.b3d>

[warn   ] TrackObjectManager: Could not load track object. Reason : Model 'cone.b3d' cannot be found
[error  ] EventHandler: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[error  ] Irrlicht: Could not load mesh, because file could not be opened: : cone.b3d
[error  ] irr_driver: Cannot load mesh <cone.b3d>

[warn   ] TrackObjectManager: Could not load track object. Reason : Model 'cone.b3d' cannot be found
[error  ] EventHandler: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[error  ] Irrlicht: Could not load mesh, because file could not be opened: : cone.b3d
[error  ] irr_driver: Cannot load mesh <cone.b3d>

[warn   ] TrackObjectManager: Could not load track object. Reason : Model 'cone.b3d' cannot be found
[error  ] EventHandler: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[error  ] Irrlicht: Could not load mesh, because file could not be opened: : cone.b3d
[error  ] irr_driver: Cannot load mesh <cone.b3d>

[warn   ] TrackObjectManager: Could not load track object. Reason : Model 'cone.b3d' cannot be found
[error  ] EventHandler: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[error  ] Irrlicht: Could not load mesh, because file could not be opened: : cone.b3d
[error  ] irr_driver: Cannot load mesh <cone.b3d>

[warn   ] TrackObjectManager: Could not load track object. Reason : Model 'cone.b3d' cannot be found
[error  ] EventHandler: While loading track 'data/../../stk-assets/tracks/las_dunas_stadium/track.xml'
[error  ] Irrlicht: Could not load mesh, because file could not be opened: : cone.b3d
[error  ] irr_driver: Cannot load mesh <cone.b3d>

[warn   ] TrackObjectManager: Could not load track object. Reason : Model 'cone.b3d' cannot be found


the track is fun, but too many banana powerups make it kinda annoying. oh, and you can get stuck inside the buses before the jump.
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium - Test the track

Postby GeekPenguinBR » 30 Dec 2015, 06:59

samuncle {l Wrote}:Level of Difficult: 5 (very difficult)
Level of Fun: 1 (boring)
Graphics: 3 (beautiful)

Disappointed. :(

Boring? How this track is boring? Your Cocoa Temple has two jumps; this one has four and difficult curves! I can't see why this is boring. :o

About graphics. I really thought everyone would be very impressed with all those flodinglights, the press canin, the four towers, the rampages and all those blue, red and grape stars as well the blimp, the TV Van, the big cam, etc. To be honest, I expected a 3 for the old tracks of the main game. :(

samuncle {l Wrote}:[i]Oh a very very very very small detail. The temperature on the weather screen is in Fahrenheit. In the SuperTuxKart universe everything is in metric :P (that's cherry picking)[/i]

Well, I assumed that it should be in Fahrenheit since it is in the "USA". No problem.
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium - Test the track

Postby GeekPenguinBR » 30 Dec 2015, 07:03

capricom45 {l Wrote}:the track is fun, but too many banana powerups make it kinda annoying. oh, and you can get stuck inside the buses before the jump.


I agree and the amount of bananas will be decreased. The issues with the ramps *getting stuck inside them or buses) probably will be fixed. Thanks for your comment.;)
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium - Test the track

Postby GeekPenguinBR » 30 Dec 2015, 07:06

XGhost {l Wrote}:That's good news to hear! I tested your track, much wow! I would say something like 4-3-4.


XGhost {l Wrote}:Level of Difficult:
Very interesting construction of driving circuit which keeps the track varied! Some tricky edges and curves. --> I like that.

Thank you very much. I wanted to create something harder than the currenttracks. That's the idea behind the tricky edges and curves.

XGhost {l Wrote}:Level of Fun:
More karts - more fun --> fits this track very well. For my taste way too much of bananas and far too little of presents. With 3 AI karts I'm driving into 2-3 bananas in sequence which is annoying. Also, the high Jump over the school bus is cool but sometimes ridiculous hard to handle. When doing right, I can use
it to jump over half of the map :).

The amount of bananas will be reduced, for sure. I agree, sometimes, the long jump may be difficult to align.

XGhost {l Wrote}:Graphics:
A topic just too huge to give it just a review-number overall. I make it short (I haven't looked into the files yet - this is just what I see ingame on maximum graphics): Textures seems very nice, You have succesfully worked with glossmaps! Textures complexity - good. 3D objects - seems nicely done. 3D object complexity - not very high. Track complexity (amount of objects and special effects in it) - good (rather high when comparing to tracks from STK 0.8). Special effects (particles etc.) - fire is cool, so, nothing to complain about.


Again, many thanks! :D This is my first track (and you must agree it's complex for a first track), then, I put effort on the graphics and I can assume I have been successful if most STK fans consider my track among the most beautiful of this game.

XGhost {l Wrote}:
GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:As showed on my demo video...Everything depends on your skills (...)

:lol: Oh, I see what you did there...
:oops:
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium - Test the track

Postby GeekPenguinBR » 30 Dec 2015, 07:11

0zone0ne {l Wrote}:The scenery and graphics look great,

Thank you very much! :D

0zone0ne {l Wrote}:I think all they need is an extra layer of polish to make them look clean and tidy.

I really don't know exactly what you mean for that, but I could try it.

0zone0ne {l Wrote}:You could possibly include more moving objects to make the arena feel more alive (such as flashes coming from the crowd, a helicopter circling around, moving screens, etc.).

As I said to samuncle, we really don't know how to do this all.

I'm even nota Blender user and my brother tries to discover by himself since watching tutorials could take a long time. At least, more time than discovering by attempts.

0zone0ne {l Wrote}:However, I think the layout of the track itself has some big issues. Here are my suggestions:
...I think you need to add longer straights before and after the jump. Right now, there is not enough time for the player to align themselves before they go over the jump, because the jump is placed directly after a curve. This caused me to fly off the track and miss the landing quite a few times. I also found that there was not enough time after the jump to get ready for the next corner, causing me to hit the wall every time...Upon
falling off the track after attempting the jump and landing on the grass, the game did not automatically reset me. Upon manually resetting, I was placed back down in a grassy area slightly away from the track, but could not drive anywhere as I was trapped by an invisible barrier. There were 3 or 4 of the AI karts stuck in the area as well. I was unable to move out of this area, because resetting always put me back to the same
spot. I was forced to restart the race.


I'm aware of this all (jumps, not straight ahead resetting badly). That's why we sent the track to sam (because we expected he could fix this except the length of the track).

Actually, there's no invisible barriers. You probably fell inside a rampage (mainly, the yellow ramp for the jump through the big tyre) when the bird tried to rescue your kart.


0zone0ne {l Wrote}:Last thing for now: the dense clusters of bananas in the middle of the road felt really... spammy. ...I think there are more clever uses for bananas. For example, placing some bananas around the outside of a curve to force the player to stay on the inside of the track, but also placing item boxes or boost canisters near the bananas (near the outside of the track but not quite as far out as the bananas). This example creates a risk/reward situation, where the player could risk going near the bananas, but be rewarded with an item or boost (as opposed to just staying on the inside of the curve). This helps the track to be engaging and fun. You could also place a line of alternating bananas and boost canisters, to make the
player weave in and out of the bananas if they want extra boost - again, risk/reward. This is a big component of racing track design and definitely something I think people should play around with more often
.


I totally agree wit you aboutthe position of the bananas. They must to "force" the driver to the middle of the road and the ramp. We will try to improve this all.
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium - Test the track

Postby GeekPenguinBR » 30 Dec 2015, 07:13

samuncle {l Wrote}:Oh btw, a small precision I tested on the maximum difficulty (the supertux) (and all track should be playable on the maximum difficulty). And the jumps are one of the main problem.

With the easy difficulty it's a nice challenging track and perfectly playable (and fun). I really enjoyed it (except
bananas and the reset under the map).


Oh! Finally you enjoyed to play it at some level. :shock:
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium - Test the track

Postby samuncle » 30 Dec 2015, 14:16

I totally disagree with you, of course and I think the guys who played it disagree too. The track is (actually, was) difficult to drive

Well there is a difference between a good difficulty and something frustrating and impossible. For instance when you jump, you just fly without control and crash. There is nothing difficult there, the landing pad is just too small. No matter how my skill will be I will always fail.
Gameplay is hard to master. I realized we should write this somewhere. [quote=http://supertuxkart.sourceforge.net/Track_Maker%27s_Guide#Gameplay]Here is some advices I just included on the wiki[/quote]

Do you mean on the ramps? :think: I thought you would fix thinks like this for us

It's very easy to fix. Just edit the driveline mesh and put them a bit higher (they should be roughly 10cm above the geometry).

close to the level of any commercial game

That's a very good way of thinking :).

I agree, but I don't know where all the textures are.

They are common to all tracks. YOU SHOULDN'T COPY THEM TO THE LOCAL TRACK FOLDER. Just use them as they are present in the media repository.

Which object, for instance

Well a few :P. It's right we don't have many objects related to modern cities but still:
Impact attenuator / suppressor (fitch barrel), Air conditioner, Radio tower (currently there is only one green radio tower. I agree we should have different ones), Loud speaker (very useful in a stadium)

The track is already resized

cool :)

About the materials it seems you indeed made the gloss map and normal maps. However unfortunately due to the lack of proper lighting in your track we can't really see it.

For sure, but you could do this for us

Yep if I have your permission to release the objects under cc-by-sa I would be glad to do it now. I didn't wanted to share stuff without your authorization. Now let me be very clear.
* I can extract the objects and put them in SuperTuxKart
* I can include them in our tracks where they fit (and I will gladly do that !)
* But I won't change your track nor the objects inside. It would be too much work and I have a lot of work to do for SuperTuxKart
* I can however update our own stadium (we have a stadium as an arena for 3 strike battle) and do "research" like how to make an animated crowd without killing the performances
* I can commit my modifications and you are free to use them !

So, all the necessary details are there and I can't see how to improve

In a lot of case your windows are just pitch black area. Maybe with a transparent glass + a very minimalistic detail inside it could be possible to do something :).

Do you mean adding lights and fog? I liked the collor, the stars and the crescent moon.

Sure :). There is always fog (even in real life and even with a bright blue sky). It helps to add depth. The skybox is very basic, no clouds, almost nothing, not even a slightly gradient. I don't say you should change the idea of a clear night sky with the moon. But you can definitively improve it.
I didn't understand what do you mean on the first. The big screen may be a bit larger, but just a bit. If not, the driver can't see them when driving over the grape rampage.

Oh sorry, a structure to HOLD the roof. I made a typo. For the giant screen it could be bigger so player can even see it more easily !.

Which objects are crispy

Edges should be crispy sometime like the self explanatory screen shot I linked in my answer

You are overestimating us; we are not Nintendo! We are just two guys making our first track.

:P I do understand the amount of work. It's only advice you are free to take them or not. I don't know your time/motivation so I write my ideas/advices.
Maybe I can "help" by upgrading the stadium in the arena mode (since now it's possible to play against the computer). I can't guarantee anything but If I do that you are free to copy/take inspiration. Don't forget to open our own blender files to see how we did stuff.

As I said, I don't know how to animated it.

Me neither :P. I should do some research ^^.
Sorry, but we don't know how to do this.The only one animation that Tuxkartdriver knows he already added (the arrows and the list of the racers).

Which is a very basic animation that can be used in tons of different cases. Like a river flowing, or the moving player list. You can check how I did the Gran Paradiso Departure board (at the airport). It's very similar to moving arrows

Again, we don't know how to make this. The monster truck needs animated wheels and we don't have idea how to do this.

It should be done in a library node :3. Actually I don't think wheels matter thaaaaaaaaat much. It's so fast you won't probably notice (you can even make it sure nobody will ever see the wheels).

Well, maybe a bit larger, but not much because this kind of blimp (for use in stadiums) is unmanned and RC.

I know I know :P. But at stk we need to make thing looks EPIC.

I don't find this text harsh, but some suggestions are beyond our current skills and knowledge. Anyway, we have other project for STK that we consider more important than this one. I will send some renderings to you.

That's perfectly fine ! Just please with our next projects, can you directly send us the blends so we can test :). I really enjoyed to test it

Boring? How this track is boring? Your Cocoa Temple has two jumps; this one has four and difficult curves! I can't see why this is boring

As I said in my next post I tried with the maximum difficulty and it was very hard to control :(. On easy difficulty it's actually quite funny !
I just used your level of evaluation. It wasn't boring but extremely frustrating to be stopped by banana and landing outside the playing area.

About graphics. I really thought everyone would be very impressed with all those flodinglights, the press canin, the four towers, the rampages and all those blue, red and grape stars as well the blimp, the TV Van, the big cam, etc. To be honest, I expected a 3 for the old tracks of the main game

Yep and I'm impressed but there is a lot of stuff missing. Don't get me wrong I strongly think about improving your work, pushing it to the next level and including it into the core game, maybe not as the racing track but the arena. You motivated me to make a stadium.
Now my goal isn't to congratulate people, it's to push them to the next level of quality. I agree with you most of our tracks lack in visual quality. You did an impressive job but there are stuff missing, the lighting can be improved.

I put effort on the graphics and I can assume I have been successful if most STK fans consider my track among the most beautiful of this game

Sure, but my reference isn't stk's fan. It's not even myself, it's pixar, disney, dreamwork, ubisoft, etc. If you want to compare and improve yourself you should look at the masters.
If you want congratulation all time, I'm not the right guy ^^.
-> modeling is good
-> texture too
-> compositing (putting stuff together) can be improved
-> break down repetitive patterns (the crowd)
-> improve lighting. You should include IBL

I think I will update our old stadium with your objects and write a tutorial about the choice made and why they were made etc. So it can helps everyone and see the process I use to do tracks and what in my mind can be improved !

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Re: Las Dunas Stadium - Test the track

Postby GeekPenguinBR » 30 Dec 2015, 20:59

Firstly, I posted some renderings made on Maya, so you said:
samuncle {l Wrote}:I won't help without a look to the geometry nor if it's not rendered in Antarctica.


Then, I recorded a video playing the track (what means that It was rendered in Antartica), but you said:
samuncle {l Wrote}:The video is great but ... Just release the .zip, let us try it and I'm sure we can improve it a lot..
I can't answer without testing the track + having the .blend. Sorry.


Then, I released the blender, and now, you tell me this:
samuncle {l Wrote}:But I won't change your track nor the objects inside. It would be too much work and I have a lot of work to do for SuperTuxKart


Well, this is not a recent conclusion, for sure. You already knew you had a lot of job to do, then, you couldn't help us; why did you insist to ask the blender file if you already knew you won't make changes on it?

Why to release the blender file? I mean what the reason for that?

samuncle {l Wrote}:Edges should be crispy sometime like the self explanatory screen shot I linked in my answer

All the objects with smmooth edges (the big can, the tyres, the blimp, the TV antenna, the inflatebles, etc. were not intended to have crispy edges.

samuncle {l Wrote}:...if I have your permission to release the objects under cc-by-sa I would be glad to do it now. I didn't wanted to share stuff without your authorization. Now let me be very clear.
* I can extract the objects and put them in SuperTuxKart
* I can include them in our tracks where they fit (and I will gladly do that !)
* But I won't change your track nor the objects inside. It would be too much work and I have a lot of work to do for SuperTuxKart
* I can however update our own stadium (we have a stadium as an arena for 3 strike battle) and do "research" like how to make an animated crowd without killing the performances
* I can commit my modifications and you are free to use them !


You are free to release any object you want and use them in any track of this game. However, I can't agree if the intention is something like "Hi! Your track "Las Dunas Stadium" is totally useless, so we will extract the objects that you have made for your project and we will put them in our old stadium, which looks much better and more professional than your pathetic new stadium. Your work is now a piece of junk and we will send it to the STK trash. Congrats: now you have the seal "clowns of the STK community" ".

Any file released under the accepted license can be added to any track, but in this case, using in the old Stadium the objects specifically made for Las Dunas, seems not ethical.

I avoided to use any object or concept from the old stadium, because it was nice years ago, but now, that environment is outdated and perfectly dispensable. That's why I built a totally new Stadium doing my best as if my project would be a track of Mario kart. Unfortunately, we don't have a kind of poll where hundred or thousand STK fans could vote. In this case, I'm sure that the vast majority would prefer to drive on my new stadium instead the old. No arrogance here, just common sense. ;)

Not all tracks on the main game works perfectly. Many times I simply can't land after jumping. Sometimes I fall into some place and there's no way to leave it, etc. :x Anyway, I never said that this or that track is imposible to drive. :|

Our track is already resized, some small modifications will be done and the excess of bananas will be removed. This will make the track perfectly playable at any level of difficult.

Again: you can use our objects where you want. :!: Just don't exclude our project in favor of a remake of an old track using the objects made for our new stadium. IMO, this would be a monster of Frankenstein (by the way, a good theme to replace the current mansion when necessary: a dark mansion of a mad scientist and his robot monster - not a dead man - who became alive by the energy from the lightning and thunderbolts)!
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium - Test the track

Postby capricom45 » 30 Dec 2015, 22:19

@GeekPenguinBR, you don't need to be riled up over this.

Yes, the track can be improved and increase in size (4 minutes for a 10 lap race is kinda short)

Yes, the objects in the Las Dunas Stadium will be extracted, but they will be stored in the central repository for later use, such as upgrading this track or creating new tracks.

No, you and tuxkartdriver aren't clowns, you are artists

No, samuncle didn't mean what you said:
You are free to release any object you want and use them in any track of this game. However, I can't agree if the intention is something like "Hi! Your track "Las Dunas Stadium" is totally useless, so we will extract the objects that you have made for your project and we will put them in our old stadium, which looks much better and more professional than your pathetic new stadium. Your work is now a piece of junk and we will send it to the STK trash. Congrats: now you have the seal "clowns of the STK community" ".
because this would imply that he's against you, except he's not.

No one is against you or tuxkartdriver, we want to support you in your work, and sometimes that means a lead/more experienced artist needs to look at your work to give you feedback.

Do you think I started with perfect music? No, I didn't, I listened to feedback by Auria, samuncle, 0zone0ne, krobonil and the rest of the active community, including you. that's how I got to where I am now, my tracks are still not used in STK (but that's a different story), but I always look for ways to improve my work. and so should you.

You were there to provide feedback where it counts, and so, I will return the favor you did to me almost 6 months ago
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium - Test the track

Postby samuncle » 30 Dec 2015, 22:30

@ GeekPenguinBR I think there is a misunderstanding :P.

I won't change YOUR track because it's YOUR track and you seems very reluctant to change stuff. However I was so impressed by your work I was thinking to use YOUR object to make a brand new modern stadium. With your objects and ideas + my experience and knowledge I thought we could do something GREAT together. It won't be the old stadium with your objects but more like a brand new arena inspired by both.

I was even writing a whole tutorial for everyone when your answer just killed my motivation.

I mean people have done the same thing with my work. Anon took inspiration from my cocoa temple track to make an arena and I was rather happy + we gathered new objects for both tracks.
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium - Test the track

Postby XGhost » 30 Dec 2015, 22:35

GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:Unfortunately, we don't have a kind of poll where hundred or thousand STK fans could vote. In this case, I'm sure that the vast majority would prefer to drive on my new stadium instead the old.

Small suggestion from my side, ignore it if your not happy with it.
What about uploading your track to the Add-Ons database as soon as possible? Ok, the voting system is not incredibly complex, but it will give STK players from all over the world the possibility to test your track. You can do that even if your track is WIP. Thereby you let the players experience the changes that your track makes.

By the way, remember back to 0.7-0.8: Add-Ons were quite popular. Some tracks from the Add-Ons were better than the ones of the core game (my opinion). Some even made it into the core by starting as Add-Ons...
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Postby tuxkartdriver » 30 Dec 2015, 22:36

-
Last edited by tuxkartdriver on 08 Jan 2016, 21:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium - Test the track

Postby GeekPenguinBR » 30 Dec 2015, 22:37

samuncle {l Wrote}:@ GeekPenguinBR I think there is a misunderstanding :P.
I won't change YOUR track because it's YOUR track and you seems very reluctant to change stuff.

I already released the Blender. How am I reluctant?

samuncle {l Wrote}:However I was so impressed by your work I was thinking to use YOUR object to make a brand new modern stadium. With your objects and ideas + my experience and knowledge I thought we could do something GREAT together. It won't be the old stadium with your objects but more like a brand new arena inspired by both.


Sam, I am totally in favor of working togheter.

samuncle {l Wrote}:I was even writing a whole tutorial for everyone when your answer just killed my motivation.

I have no intention to0 kill something good.

samuncle {l Wrote}:I don't agree with that. The new las dunas stadium is better. It's also not the same thing. One is a racing track the other is an arena

That's my point. Just this. nothing more than this.
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium - Test the track

Postby GeekPenguinBR » 30 Dec 2015, 22:44

capricom45 {l Wrote}:No, you and tuxkartdriver aren't clowns, you are artists.

Thank you very much! :)

capricom45 {l Wrote}:No, samuncle didn't mean what you said:..."Hi! Your track "Las Dunas Stadium" is totally useless, so we will extract the objects that you have made for your project and we will put them in our old stadium, which looks much better and more professional than your pathetic new stadium. Your work is now a piece of junk and we will send it to the STK trash. Congrats: now you have the seal "clowns of the STK community" ". because this would imply that he's against you, except he's not. No one is against you or tuxkartdriver, we want to support you in your work


For sure, capricorn45. I'm not saying samuncle is against us, of course, but when he said that our track is impossible to drive, he automatically excluded it, so, we felt like two clows who wasted our time for nothing.

capricom45 {l Wrote}:You were there to provide feedback where it counts, and so, I will return the favor you did to me almost 6 months ago

Thanks a lot. I'm not against feedbacks, but I don't expect something like "this project is useless as an arena, track or anything". That's was my thoughts after his message. :o
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