Graphics, models, etc.

Re: Graphics, models, etc.

Postby andrewbuck » 13 Mar 2010, 03:54

TheAngientGoat and I did a bit of work on some of the models. I think I initially started the goblin and we passed it back and forth a few times, each of us tweaking it a bit. What you have done with it looks excellent. I probably won't be doing much more modeling myself since the code is more than enough work but I'm glad to know you found it useful. Out of curiosity, did you modify the existing mesh or build a new one using the old one as a design reference? The reason I ask is I have wondered if my meshes are designed decently enough that they can be improved upon by more skilled artists, or are they too broken to be of much use (which is easy to do in 3d modeling).

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Re: Graphics, models, etc.

Postby Skorpio » 13 Mar 2010, 18:44

I modified the original mesh, but changed quite a lot. Especially the legs had some ugly sharp edges that caused bad shading and the ears had unnecessary geometry. But I think this took less time than creating a new mesh.

Did you have time to implement the basic four animations? I saw the new video, but the animations don't seem to work correctly. When I try to host, the creatures only perform the first actions that were active in Blender's NLA editor, like the dwarf's axe throw, although I didn't export these actions.
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Re: Graphics, models, etc.

Postby andrewbuck » 13 Mar 2010, 21:01

I think you need to do away with stuff in the NLA editor I think it screws up the OGRE exporter script. Try making a backup copy of one of the creatures and exporting the ogre mesh from the one you removed the NLA keys for (don't forget to copy the .mesh and .skeleton to the models directory after the export).

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Re: Graphics, models, etc.

Postby andrewbuck » 14 Mar 2010, 00:37

I implemented an Idle, Walk, and Attack1 on the dragon mesh. I think the problem is with your NLA editor. I just made each action as a separate entry on the "Action Editor" pane in blender. Once I made each one I then did the ogre export with the default names and frame start/stop.

You could probably use your models with the NLA editor turned on but I think you would have to adjust the start/end times when you export. If that works it would actually allow us to blend animations together using blender and then export the combined effect as a given animation.

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Re: Graphics, models, etc.

Postby andrewbuck » 14 Mar 2010, 00:59

Here is the blend file for the dragon with the walk, attack, idle, and die animations.

Actually, I was going to upload it, but I get a message saying "The extension blend is not allowed." If one of the admins could have a look possibly allowing blend file uploads at it, that would be cool. I will e-mail it to you skorpio.

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Re: Graphics, models, etc.

Postby Skorpio » 14 Mar 2010, 20:10

I exported the orc and dwarf again, without NLA strips, and it seems to work better now, but the animations still look odd. Maybe they get somehow mixed up.

And could you try to lower the mouse cursor light? I think it is about 6-8 times higher than a knight atm. BTW can I change the flickering of the lights or is it hard coded, too?
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Re: Graphics, models, etc.

Postby andrewbuck » 14 Mar 2010, 20:21

Glad to hear you got the animations fixed. I'll take a look at the mouse light right now. The flickering is hard coded, although I could add some parameters to the level files to control it. It works by just moving the xyz coordinates along a sine wave, but each axis has its own theta. every so often the "deltaTheta" for one of the axis randomly flips sign (multiplied by -1). This causes the sine wave to go backwards for that axis. The interference caused by these three interacting waves is what really causes the flicker (the brightness is not changed).

I could add 5 parameters to the level file for the lights [amplitudeX, amplitudeY, amplitudeZ, rate, probability]. The amplitudes are the maximum distance the light will move in that direction, the rate would control how fast the whole process happens (eg a slowly moving or really dancing around fast), the probability would be how likely the light is to change directions (for any single axis) that second.

Let me know what you would think of this.

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Re: Graphics, models, etc.

Postby Skorpio » 14 Mar 2010, 21:03

andrewbuck {l Wrote}:Glad to hear you got the animations fixed.


The animations still don't work correctly, and I don't know why. I need more informations about what the game does with the animations. The dwarf for instance seems to freeze after the end of his walkcycle and the cycle also looks different to the animation in Blender.

andrewbuck {l Wrote}:I could add 5 parameters to the level file for the lights [amplitudeX, amplitudeY, amplitudeZ, rate, probability]. The amplitudes are the maximum distance the light will move in that direction, the rate would control how fast the whole process happens (eg a slowly moving or really dancing around fast), the probability would be how likely the light is to change directions (for any single axis) that second.

Let me know what you would think of this.

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Sounds good.
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Re: Graphics, models, etc.

Postby Skorpio » 21 Mar 2010, 10:30

I've rigged the goblin, made some changes to the gnome model and painted a new texture for him. I want him to look and move like a marionette ... a evil marionette. :D However, making him move like a marionette is not so easy, but the walk animation looks already pretty funny.

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Re: Graphics, models, etc.

Postby andrewbuck » 21 Mar 2010, 15:49

Wow, the expression on his face is truly creepy. Can't wait to see him in the full game.
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Re: Graphics, models, etc.

Postby Skorpio » 22 Mar 2010, 14:40

I've made new textures for gold, lava, rocks and claimed tiles. Is there a way to unwrap the tiles/walls so that the texture is evenly displayed on them? I just scaled the uv layout manually to make the size differences less visible than before, but it's not perfect. The diagonal walls also cause seams.

Now I gotta figure out how to animate the lava.

BTW we should upload some new screenshots to the SF page soon.

screenshot_1.jpg
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Re: Graphics, models, etc.

Postby Bodsda » 22 Mar 2010, 14:46

Skorpio {l Wrote}:I've made new textures for gold, lava, rocks and claimed tiles. Is there a way to unwrap the tiles/walls so that the texture is evenly displayed on them? I just scaled the uv layout manually to make the size differences less visible than before, but it's not perfect. The diagonal walls also cause seams.

Now I gotta figure out how to animate the lava.

BTW we should upload some new screenshots to the SF page soon.

screenshot_1.jpg


Wow, that really does look brilliant. Brings back DK2 memories. I cant wait to see these in the media pack.

I assume the icon on the tiles will change colour based on what seat created them?
Why is the lava the same size as a wall?

Great work Skorpio,

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Re: Graphics, models, etc.

Postby Skorpio » 22 Mar 2010, 14:54

Bodsda {l Wrote}:I assume the icon on the tiles will change colour based on what seat created them?


Yeah, it would be cool if the players could choose between several icons and colors, which then get sticked on their tiles.

Bodsda {l Wrote}:Why is the lava the same size as a wall?


Just to make the screenshot a little bit more interesting. :)
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Re: Graphics, models, etc.

Postby Bodsda » 22 Mar 2010, 15:00

Skorpio {l Wrote}:
Bodsda {l Wrote}:I assume the icon on the tiles will change colour based on what seat created them?


Yeah, it would be cool if the players could choose between several icons and colors, which then get sticked on their tiles.


I dont think this will be aproblem. The game already differentiates between enemies of different seats (I think), so (Forgive the following terminology, I am no modeler so might get this horribly wrong) if we could get different textures, say 8 colours then we could link them to the seats. Or better still, if it where possible to set the colour through the game, e.g. have an RGB selection when choosing factions etc.

Skorpio {l Wrote}:
Bodsda {l Wrote}:Why is the lava the same size as a wall?


Just to make the screenshot a little bit more interesting. :)


Oooh,, what about a waterfall/Lavafall that trickles the water/lava down into the main ground level water/lava - That would be a nice aesthetical feature.

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Re: Graphics, models, etc.

Postby svenskmand » 23 Mar 2010, 00:08

First of all I think that your models are very nice Skorpio :) Also very nice textures :), they are way better than the previous :)

But I think that we need to agree on the creature list before there is made more models, else we end up in the "open source content zoo" - that is we get a zoo of different models, that might be nice individually, but does not fit together as a whole, and are not all in the spirit of the game. I am hoping that we will make a AAA-title, that is really comparative in quality with some of the big commercial titles, like DK was :)

Looking through the creatures list I have here marked some of the creatures that either does not fit with the backstory, does not make sense in them self or is simply too far apart from each other.

As far as I recall the creature list was just a very quick compilation of creatures that AlienWolf thought could be cool. I do not think he thought a lot about each of these.

Here is my list of comments:

Constructs

* Worker - Mechanical miner
This is okay, but the name should be changed, and I think that the concept art should be changed to something that looks more like some of the golden army characters from Hellboy 2, as this is also the look that is aimed for in the backstory. I have an idea that I will make a sketch of in the following week :)
* Scout - Giant eye
Here I think that it should be a orb-like flying creature, and still be made from metals all Construct creatures should. I also have an idea for this creature will post a sketch :)
* Weak fighter - Rock muncher
* Weak spellcaster - ?
* Weak builder - ?
* Strong fighter - Mech
For real? This is also just so far apart from everything ever seen in DK1 or 2. This should not be part of the game, im my oppion.
* Strong spellcaster -
* Strong builder - Mobile repair unit
I think the idea of a creature that can repair the other constructs on the battle field is good. That way the Constructs should not be allowed to heal automatic, on as they are repaired by the Mobile repair unit, or in a special room that can repair them.
* Guard - Android
Again this is SOOO far apart from anything, this should also be removed.
* Special creatures - Hybrid
Again again, this is SOOO far apart from anything, this should also be removed.
* Summons - Fire elemental
This may also need to be changed, but maybe there could be made a reasonable story for why the constructs should have these summons.
* Super creatures - ?

Undead

* Worker - Skeleton dwarf
* Scout - Skeleton bat
* Weak fighter - Skeleton
* Weak spellcaster - Zombie
A zombie is a very dumb creature that does only merely know mortal from undead, and should therefore not in any way be able to do magic.
* Weak builder - Haunt
I am not sure what this is? Pics?
* Strong fighter - Skeletal dog, Vampire
* Strong spellcaster - Lich
* Strong builder - Werewolf
As far as I know a Werewolf is not a undead, as it is simply a man that transforms into a wolf at fullmoon. So I do not think that this should be here.
* Guard - Ghosth knight
This is pretty cools.
* Special creatures - Necromancer
Also cools.
* Summons - Atrocity
I am not sure exactly how this creature should look? Pics anyone?
* Super creatures - Abomination
This is also pretty cool, I was thinking something like this guy :)

A general comment regarding the Undeads; I think that there is too many skeleton creatures.

I have not looked through the Corpars and Humans yet, but I will do that tomorrow - it is getting late now.

So what do YOU think, am I all off or what?
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Re: Graphics, models, etc.

Postby qubodup » 23 Mar 2010, 18:49

Skorpio {l Wrote}:I've made new textures for gold, lava, rocks and claimed tiles.

Great claimed tiles :) The lava and gold look quite alike though :D
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Re: Graphics, models, etc.

Postby Skorpio » 24 Mar 2010, 15:17

I animated the lava yesterday and it looks not so bad, but kind of abstract. It would probably look better, if the texture was extended over several tiles, but I have no idea whether that is possible or not. I also noticed something odd, when I placed some ground lava tiles in the editor. They sometimes get rotated by different angles, if you replace walls with ground tiles. That of course creates seams between the animated tiles, because they "flow" in different directions.
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Re: Graphics, models, etc.

Postby andrewbuck » 24 Mar 2010, 15:30

The rotation happens in the tile mesh optimization routine. When you have a "corner" tile it could appear on any of the four corners of a given wall so I just load the one mesh and rotate it so the "open" sides face the inside corners (this is also why the pickaxe at the top of the tiles is rotated when you mark them for digging).

As for whether textures could extend over multiple tiles, I think this should be possible. I'm not sure if OGRE supports something like world coordinates for textures, instead of only u-v coordinates but that would be the first thing I would look at. If that is not possible you could make multiple meshes for the given tile (maybe name them like Rock104-0-0.mesh, Rock104-0-1.mesh, etc) and I could just load the tiles according to the "modulo" function of the x and y coordinates of the tile I am trying to load. This would mean a lot of duplication of meshes though which would increase game load times as well as memory usage though. The same thing ought to be possible for rotations as well but again this would increase load times and memory usage.

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Re: Graphics, models, etc.

Postby svenskmand » 26 Mar 2010, 23:40

Ok, here is a very rough sketch of how I imagine the Construct advanced workers would look :)

In the left hand he holds a drill, to drill out dirt and rocks in the under/over-ground, in the right hand he has a big tong to handle large rocks.

It is possible to see alot of his insides, there are alot of gears, and the heartstone, which is seen in the right besides the big gear. There should be lights coming out of his insides, these lights comes from the hearthstone.

Outside he has plating, these should have alot of markings/engravings on them, these looks a little like ribs. The plates are made from metal that looks very much like gold.

On the bottom he has a large ball/wheel, which he uses to move around the dungeon/aboves.

His head is almost inside his body, and his face is sort of a mask, with glowing holes where his eyes are looking out. And he has no mouth, but only the mask as an face and eyes.

Compared to other creatures the advanced worker is pretty small, approximately 1.5 times as high as the Kobold, so he is not that big.

What do you all think? I will try and make a sketch of the Construct scout also and post it here :)
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Re: Graphics, models, etc.

Postby Skorpio » 27 Mar 2010, 16:33

Hehe it looks a bit like the Blob.

The model is kinda problematic. It's difficult to work on round surfaces, and also to make it look round with a low poly count. For the gearwheels I can use simple planes with a transparent texture, but they'll probably be difficult to animate. I'm not sure how I should achieve the glow effect you mentioned. I wonder if something like halos are possible in OGRE. And I guess you meant 0.75 times the size of a kobold, 1.5 times would be almost as tall as a knight. ;)

Here's a quick first version:

Construct.jpg
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Re: Graphics, models, etc.

Postby qubodup » 27 Mar 2010, 17:12

Nice drawing! About the model: I would prefer a more comically-large gripping plier. I don't know if that's a style you're aiming for in OD though.
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Re: Graphics, models, etc.

Postby svenskmand » 27 Mar 2010, 17:22

Skorpio {l Wrote}:Hehe it looks a bit like the Blob.

The model is kinda problematic. It's difficult to work on round surfaces, and also to make it look round with a low poly count. For the gearwheels I can use simple planes with a transparent texture, but they'll probably be difficult to animate.

How many polygons should there be at max? I think that the most important for the insides is that there is some gears that rotate, and that the hearthstone gives light, and maybe some mist/steam.
Skorpio {l Wrote}:I'm not sure how I should achieve the glow effect you mentioned.

Maybe Andrew has an idea for how to do the glow effect. I was think that it should be a light source, with some mist/steam around it :)
Skorpio {l Wrote}:I wonder if something like halos are possible in OGRE. And I guess you meant 0.75 times the size of a kobold, 1.5 times would be almost as tall as a knight. ;)

I wanted it at bit larger than the Kobold, but much smaller than all other creatures in the game, so maybe 1.10 times bigger than the Kobold then? As I recall the Kobold is itself small compared to the other creatures right?
Skorpio {l Wrote}:Here's a quick first version:

Construct.jpg

That is very nice :) But I think that some of the gears should be more robust/thicker. Else it is very nice. I will try and improve upon the sketch later this weekend :)

There are a bit too many plates, but it is also diffucult to see on the sketch, but I will try an improve the sketch so it is easier to see what is what. I will also upload the GIMP file, then you can look at each layer separately, to see that is what :)
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Re: Graphics, models, etc.

Postby Skorpio » 27 Mar 2010, 17:52

Apropos gearwheels, they'll hardly be visible in the construct. In the render they are shadeless, but the inside of the construct is almost black and I'm not sure how much light will reach them in the game. I could let them emit light, but they'll still be covered by the hull, unless I open the top of the model. I got to test that in OGRE, it's perhaps pointless to animate them.
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Re: Graphics, models, etc.

Postby andrewbuck » 27 Mar 2010, 19:09

Regarding the animation, it should be quite easy, simply do a semi-transparent texture on a single polygon (I would suggest a triangle but a square would also work). Then attach a bone perpendicular to the plane and rotate the bone (like your neck rotates when you look left/right; the gear would be like a book balanced on your head). As for lights, it would be fairly easy for me to add fields to the creature_class section of the level file which specify location/brightness of the lights relative to the creature's location. In fact, instead of doing an xyz location you could specify the name of a bone in the creature to use (like the weapons do now, only that code assumes the bones are Weapon_L and Weapon_R). As for fog, smoke, etc, Ogre is capable of it but I am not sure how to do it yet.

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Re: Graphics, models, etc.

Postby Bodsda » 28 Mar 2010, 00:11

Regarding the size of the advanced worker, this is fairly trivial because as a creature levels up it automatically grows. It is possible for a Kobold to be bigger than a dragon/knight/any creature
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