The problem with PvP

The problem with PvP

Postby DrAltaica » 31 Jul 2021, 13:53

TL;DR
If you don't force people to play with me no one will because I ruin the fun for everyone else when I play.

If playing something causes more stress than enjoyment then at is the definition of Toxic gaming.


In a post on the Battle.net forums, Kaplan writes that "One of the best Widowmaker players in the world complained to us about long queue times. We looked into it and found that hundreds of other players had avoided him."

But they hadn't avoided that Widowmaker player because of his toxicity, they'd clicked "Avoid this player" because he was too good.
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June 2020
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MrCarri-X
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I have no doubt that SBMM isn't working correctly, I get matched against predators when I never could get anywhere higher than platinum 3, I have 1.2 k/d ratio and I'm nowhere near to have any 4k damage or 20 kill badge, though I still get matched with these people.



Even of that I am in complete favor of SBMM, although I'd love for it to work better so I get against same skill opponents and not opponents who are clearly better than me. I just think that people who just spam "remove SBMM" is because they want easier kills, basically. The argument of "I don't want to sweat every game, there's ranked for that". Allow me to tell you: If you are a predator, why should you play in an easier lobby because you have to "sweat", so just because you can't stand playing against people of your same skill, the average playerbase must play against someone who is clearly better than them? SBMM is great and has always been, it makes us average players and bad players to play against each other and have fun, because I really don't have fun when a predator kills the entire lobby and pushes every damn squad, but well, I guess that isn't a "sweating match" then...



Also, "we don't want two ranked modes". Seriously? You dare compare public matches to ranked? Ranked is completely toxic and unfun, more than 10 squads camping a super small ring, your squad getting shot from 7 different sides and camping because you don't want to lose RP. Pubs are NOTHING like ranked, don't compare to stuff that are completely different just because you are getting matched against similar skilled opponents which is the point of ranked also.



Overall, I believe that SBMM could use some adjustments as my k/d ratio has fallen over .10 points throughout these seasons because I get killed against predators in my lobbies, but it's not like this happens every match. On the other hand, the removal of SBMM is completely absurd request and just note it on your mind, it will never happen. So maybe change your request to "Fix SBMM" instead of "Remove SBMM", that is more of a valid argument. I still have fun playing though c:



Had to get that out of my chest :v
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June 2020 - last edited June 2020
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pastaclown
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@MrCarri-X I get what you're saying, but there's also a big, big difference between the people who want easier kills and, "It is physically and mentally exhausting to have to play my best every single gameo
If there is a difference why did bring it up? He said it was that fact that top players don't want to tryhard(sweat) all the time
There's also a big difference between, "I'm a Predator stomping pub lobbies haha this should be the norm."
what he said was Predators want to be allowed to relaive the stress of the playing against Predators by stomping on lower skilled players.
and "I'm Predator and want to play with my friends but we can't because the SBMM matches us against other Predators despite my friends being only level 40."
So instead of a players that choose to play with a predator on their team being match with teams that contain predators. teams that are just level 40 without any predators should be forced to play against the one with a predator. because making level 40 players play against a predator is bad(unless I'm that predator)

There's no "problem" with people that want SBMM removed, you're just stating your subjective opinion as a fact, and use hyperbolic exaggerations to make it seem reasonable, deeming that people of higher skill should have to try-hard every single game because it's not fair to lower skilled players that there's a Predator in their game.
"I'm a Predator stomping pub lobbies is how I deal with the toxicity of playing against Predators, this should be the norm."



In my opinion, what's really not fair is that ranked was created for the express purpose of try-harding every single game to prove that you're the best, yet we had the SBMM forced onto us using a broken metric which matches us up against skilled players anyway, fostering an environment in which no one really seems to be having fun in.


They aren't matching only Predator's against evenly skilled players that are matching everyone against evenly skilled players and it;s only the Predators that are complaining about having to tryhard every match. The thing that makes predator's predators is that they can't stop themselves from doing everything they can to clobber their opponent

Yep he manage to disagree with using the same argument as his oponant, just rephrasing it to sound positive instead negative.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/570/disc ... 086516957/


KailnoSpaces [has Dota 2] (Banned) May 26, 2015 @ 3:55am
It's not a bad idea, but I do see a few problems. 1) Your own queue time will be increased. 2) You're increasing someone else's queue time. 3) Someone else now has to deal with that player because you blocked him.

1) Is fine. Your own fault, you know how to fix it.

2) Makes the system abusable. All you have to do is tell as many people as possible to block someone. The poor player would never be able to get into a match.

3) I guess it's somebody else's problem at that point, right?


Mish@ [has Dota 2] May 26, 2015 @ 2:55am
dont like dont play.......go back play barbie in home

Yes. you should quit playing the game entirely instead of just quit playing with thee people that are ruining the game for you. If we allow you to play only people that are fun to play with then No one will ever be able to find a match.
There are groups of halo fans who can't play their favorite gamemode because it is secretly ranked. Why is it secretly ranked???


Because that's the problem. If you allow the best of the best to match up with absolute new players, the new players wouldn't stay in the playlist much longer, because they'll get thrown against teams of "try hard BTB players". If you're a Silver player across Halo and get thrown into a "Social" playlist, there's a high chance that most people will be individually better than you. If you're an Onyx level player, there's a high chance that most people will be individually worse than you. Therefore it only becomes relaxing for the top players.
[/quote] It's their favorite game mode because its gives them easy kills. They don't want to tryhard and that for sure aren't going to accept losing.


You have to team up the top players with bunnies because there isn't enough non-bunnies for the Top players get matches.


Now can't re-balance the matches so that the bunnies have a chance of winning.

youtu.be/Pv3gOqy4sZk
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Re: The problem with PvP

Postby Julius » 31 Jul 2021, 15:52

Hmm, to some extend this is why the Xonotic player-base is so low. There is just too many people on the few populated servers that easily dominate anyone new. But telling them now to stop playing would just make things even worse I guess.

On the other hand, these match-making systems basically killed independent server hosting and destroyed most forms of community spirit in public online games, because you are just thrown at a random group of strangers each time (who all too often are cheaters or might as well be bots). Back in the old days you could favorite servers and play with some of the same regulars and the server's rules where usually also better enforced (instead of relying on some stupid automatic anti-cheat software that barely ever works).
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Re: The problem with PvP

Postby drummyfish » 31 Jul 2021, 17:52

You can enjoy being owned, people should stop being pussies. In Xonotic we usually try to balance by putting more noobs against against fewer pros, it's not a problem.
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Re: The problem with PvP

Postby Lopy » 31 Jul 2021, 23:33

If the matchmaking is done via a player score or similar, you can implement an "Easy/Hard" button. When you select easy, the matchmaking system uses your score -X, and when you select hard it is score+X. That way, you can relax or "try hard" on demand. If someones always selects the same mode, their score will naturally shift, until it is as if no offset was applied.

When I was still playing that genre, I noticed that my performance was noticeably better in the first games then in he lasts for a session. That kind of system would allow for a consistent experience. Alternatively, someone could switch based on the day of the week, with easy after work, and hard on the weekends.

PS: Please don't embed youtube videos here. They automatically load a bunch of proprietary JavaScript. A link works fine for people that do not care about that, you could also post a link to the video file directly so that people can download it whithout any JavaScript, or host it on a PeerTube instance you trust.
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Re: The problem with PvP

Postby Julius » 01 Aug 2021, 20:47

I think you are both missing the point. Most people do not enjoy being owned and if that consistently happens on all matches they play, they stop playing that game.

If you are really good at a game you should play with people in the same league as you, period. If those do not exist or it makes you "sweat" too much, then maybe it is time to play another game.
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Re: The problem with PvP

Postby drummyfish » 01 Aug 2021, 20:59

This safe space gaming is all just an invention of the corporate game design that aims to appeal to as many people as possible, be as non-punishing and non-challenging as possible just to maximize the player base and profit coming from it. I personally don't subscribe to inventing artificial BS problems, but feel free if you have nothing better to do :)
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Re: The problem with PvP

Postby Julius » 01 Aug 2021, 21:27

This isn't about "safe space gaming" at all, it is about players refusing to acknowledge that that they are making a game horrible to play for everyone else just for their personal (very short lived) enjoyment. In effect this is pretty much the same as cheating in a multiplayer game.
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Re: The problem with PvP

Postby freem » 01 Aug 2021, 21:34

I don't know this particular game, but from my experience in multiplayer FPS (which are mostly about PvP), it is clearly not fun to not be able to deliver a single blow to an enemy because they're just way stronger than you... or maybe cheating? Who knows?
Similarly, it's not really fun to me to just "farm" newbies.

There's a mechanism that I would like to see more often actually, especially on the low-audience FPS (those last years, mostly red-eclipse1 and unvanquished): adaptative skills for bots, so that both newbies and stronger people could have fun. In a team-based game, this kind of balancing could work. Without bots, I think it's the duty of the game to balance teams, and to be honest, most if not all the games I've seen fail at that.

But I think this is just one part of the problem. The other part is that it is the responsibility of the gameplay to balance things. If you want a casual game, then a strong player should not be able to humiliate a newbie. If you want an esport game, then sure, it's fine, but then I'm not sure a balancing system is that much of a problem: you want sport? You have it.
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Re: The problem with PvP

Postby Julius » 01 Aug 2021, 22:35

I don't think making a strict separation between "casual" and "esport" games is very helpful and can indeed lead to the "safe space gaming" drummyfish is thinking about.

For me there are PvE games that you can enjoy with your friends casually and there are PvP games that always have a competitive element. Ideally they should be easy to start but hard to master and thus not "casual".

However just like it would be unacceptable for a professional soccer player to dominate in a junior-high school soccer match (especially when not invited), so do very good players in public PvP games have to recognize that they are unwanted in regular matches and spoil the fun for everyone else.
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Re: The problem with PvP

Postby Lyberta » 17 Aug 2021, 03:57

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Re: The problem with PvP

Postby freem » 01 Sep 2021, 17:19

It's certainly easier to write stuff to destroy than to create.
While I don't really like the idea of a low number of strong players versus lot of beginners (a good player can easily "farm" beginners in several games... red-eclipse, unvanquished, wesnoth... most games I know, actually, and it's a very good way to disgust newcommers), I don't really consider it a reason to destroy (to reuse your wording).
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Re: The problem with PvP

Postby Lyberta » 13 Sep 2021, 00:45

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Re: The problem with PvP

Postby Danimal » 13 Sep 2021, 15:19

Got your AK-47 ready? Because i don´t see any other way to do that, other than erasing 99.99% of the world population sparing only your like minded buddies; Spoiler, it will end bad, very bad. I never commented on your posts, but little by little you have been becoming more and more poisoned and extreme. You want to change something? start making non-binary gender friendly games, but coding is pain for you. Which makes me question why you are even here in a game coding forum; mostly everyone in here is an enemy to you because we are either white, male or breath air. Also, for your infomation women are also equal or worse "racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, ableist, sanist, etc." than men. It´s very easy to just lash at the world and do absolutely nothing to change what you don´t like about it ...from a game making forum?. Don´t you have a better forum of like-minded people to freely express yourself?

This is the first and last time im answering one of your posts, I´m also sorry to the moderators, this is totally out of line for myself but I couldn´t hold it anymore. Edit if you see fitting.


As for the main topic of the thread, i switched to one person only games a long time ago, World of tanks was the last nail on the pvp coffing for me, if you want PVP toxicity go play that game, where heavy tanks cover behind lights while ramming them out of cover, artillery have to scout, mediums push tank destroyers out of sniping spots, someone shoots you for no reason at battle start and cripples you, everyone either inmolates or camp at base and then blame you when losing for playing well and surviving most of the match. And that´s your own team I´m talking about, after all that, you might still get a pay-to-win tank in the enemy team that noone is able to kill. So yeah, if you mix different level players it sucks, and even among same level players it doesn´t get any better due to the amount of pro-wannabes, try-hards and "you suck, stop feeding enemy". I´m still to find a PVP game that is not toxic as nuclear waste.
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