FreeGameDev

Given all the issues with the current model would starting again be a good idea?

Let's pretend for a minute that I have a nephew doing game design at uni, and lets say he has to do a character model this semester and that I was going to get him to do a meka, but he could possibly do a biped human character. He works in Maya mainly, but can use Max.

What would he need as a design brief; as somebody who knows nothing about cube model requirements?

Here is my first attempt:
1. Decription
2. List of player animations required
3. List of tagged bones
4. List of HUD animations -
5. Special requirements - no spaces in the bone names. ?others
6. Modularity (heads/packs etc)
7. Export format(s) - other than a 'cube ready' format I would also conver it to milkshape for further use.

There may well be more.

If he did sign on to do a human type character for RE then I would need help filling the brief, then possibly someone to help on the export side should there be problems (I don't know Maya) and lastly someone to help with configuration. This is still in negotiation but if I can provide him with some support (better than I can give) then it is more likely to happen.

Funnily enough, I just did the exact same thing at my university.

Syncronicity! You haven't got a design brief hidden in a draw somewhere?

Not necessary for RE, but definitely needed if we are going to get somewhere on MkA. I'll try to be more specific on the details when I am not on my tablet; but we will need help with the modeller specific stuff. I would really like it if someone could work with us on the MkA player model so I can actually get somewhere designing the gameplay around it.

Quin {l Wrote}: "I'll try to be more specific on the details when I am not on my tablet"

So you work better off your tablets? Most people do better on a few pills. Seriously though, I did get a bit bogged down trying to spec the requirements. Is there any major group I have left off my list?

Working with anything but Blender has two serious issues:
1. There is only an Blender .IQM exporter ( http://lee.fov120.com/iqm/ ), anything else will have to export first to another format and then use that strange converter.
2. (more importantly) Anything but Blender adds a huge barrier to someone editing the sourcefiles later on (say adding another animation like it was recently done) since 3dsmax or Maya is prohibitively expensive. Take for example those liberated files from the Ryzom MMORPG; since they are in an older 3dsmax format, no-one has so far done anything useful with them in FOSS games, even though they are really nice models with great animations.

In general I would however say that the animations and the player-model RE has is actually not so bad. The HUD hands and the weapons need an upgrade urgently, but the player model doesn't really. And except for the a bit strange rig, the animations of RE arn't so bad at all.

Ahh and for MkA I am still offering the mesh (with head and prop variations) I did a while back for that TF mod: viewtopic.php?f=72&t=1481&hilit=team+fortress+mod&start=50
They are already UV mapped and weighted to the existing RE rig (and working in game, although I might have to re-weigth them to the updated rig just to have a better source file). So basically all they would need is a nice normal map (and texture, but that is little work once you have a nice normal-map). If we don't go for the same ultra detailed style as the current model, making the high-poly for the normal-map isn't too much work either.

Last but not least, I am seriously contemplating to port these two weapons over to RE (which some changes to the texture to add color glowing elements):
http://www.blendswap.com/blends/view/67514
http://www.blendswap.com/blends/view/67529

However the problems with the missing source files for the hands is a bit of an issue. I managed to get the MD5 importer working last night, and just using the existing animation .md5anim and crudely rigging the mesh to the messed up md5 bones would be quite quick to do... but I would really hate to invest time in those, and not having a properly fixed .blender source-file, really fitting animations and weapons working via .iqm as a result (but I am unsure if I want to work on that as it will take quite some time basically redoing all of it).

^ Don't like 'em. at all.

ballist1c {l Wrote}:^ Don't like 'em. at all.

Agreed. The models are actually quite nice, but I don't think that they would work for RE or Mka at all. Sauerbraten? Sure! But not the sci-fi shooters.

As for the overall design brief, there's always the stuff that needs to be done when it comes to the model itself. What will it look like? What is its purpose? Is there a backstory to the character? Does that change anything (e.g. scar on face from fight)? Are there other characters that specifically work with this character?

Julius {l Wrote}:There is only an Blender .IQM exporter ( http://lee.fov120.com/iqm/ ), anything else will have to export first to another format and then use that strange converter.

Is there a problem with the converter? I have converted a couple of models OK along with a couple of animations, but I haven't done a whole swag of them. Also we may look at trying an iqm exporter plugin for Misfit Cubed this year, along with bug fixes, tiddy up and perhaps smd support. That would give another route.

Julius {l Wrote}:Blender adds a huge barrier

Too true, and apologies for quoting out of context.

Julius {l Wrote}: Take for example those liberated files from the Ryzom MMORPG; since they are in an older 3dsmax format, no-one has so far done anything useful with them in FOSS games, even though they are really nice models with great animations.

True. I have a continual problem when exporting them as milkshape files with a (?root) bone becoming fixed. I'm not good enough with max to know if there is an easy fix in the export. When time permits I want to have another go at it, perhaps with smd, I really want a working lipleurodon. Who wouldn't?

Julius {l Wrote}:In general I would however say that the animations and the player-model RE has is actually not so bad.

I agree, except I don't like forward animation much, it's too bouncy, unatural and looks disconnected from the environment; it seems to lack natural swing/sway. I wondered if it was intentional to give an artificial feel.

Julius {l Wrote}:And except for the a bit strange rig,

I thought it was a normal funny blender thing! It doesn't look like any other player model with all those funny IK bones sticking out. Are they 'leftovers' from the animation system? Are they required?

Julius {l Wrote}:However the problems with the missing source files for the hands is a bit of an issue. I managed to get the MD5 importer working last night, and just using the existing animation .md5anim and crudely rigging the mesh to the messed up md5 bones would be quite quick to do... but I would really hate to invest time in those, and not having a properly fixed .blender source-file, really fitting animations and weapons working via .iqm as a result (but I am unsure if I want to work on that as it will take quite some time basically redoing all of it).

I can usually get md5 into smd without losing model integrity, if importing smd is better in blender, but you really need the full rig. Surely there are some nice open licenced fps hands somewhere?

Julius {l Wrote}:Ahh and for MkA I am still offering the mesh (with head and prop variations) I did a while back for that TF mod:

Thanks. Is it rigged?

Julius {l Wrote}:Last but not least, I am seriously contemplating to port these two weapons over to RE

Great models, but I think I agree with the quintux_v and ballist1c, not SF enough for RE at present. Add a flux capacitor, a plasma conduit and a few glowy bits and I think they would be fine.

cdxbow {l Wrote}:Is there a problem with the converter? I have converted a couple of models OK along with a couple of animations, but I haven't done a whole swag of them. Also we may look at trying an iqm exporter plugin for Misfit Cubed this year, along with bug fixes, tiddy up and perhaps smd support. That would give another route.

The problem with the converter is that you are dependent on other, more likely then not outdated, model formats and their exporters, which might or might no work with the latest version of your modelling program. For open-source games one really has to carefully plan on how the source-files can be utilized for later editing by other persons, as evident by the current mess (and those files are "only" one or two years old).
Any dedicated exporter for a still supported, fully featured and not too expensive modelling program is of course fine... but if you ask me the only feasible option that fits all those criteria is Blender.

cdxbow {l Wrote}:

Julius {l Wrote}: Take for example those liberated files from the Ryzom MMORPG; since they are in an older 3dsmax format, no-one has so far done anything useful with them in FOSS games, even though they are really nice models with great animations.

True. I have a continual problem when exporting them as milkshape files with a (?root) bone becoming fixed. I'm not good enough with max to know if there is an easy fix in the export. When time permits I want to have another go at it, perhaps with smd, I really want a working lipleurodon. Who wouldn't?

OT: Check out this discussion http://opengameart.org/content/bounty-c ... ful-format

cdxbow {l Wrote}:

Julius {l Wrote}:And except for the a bit strange rig,

I thought it was a normal funny blender thing! It doesn't look like any other player model with all those funny IK bones sticking out. Are they 'leftovers' from the animation system? Are they required?

Are you talking about how they look in Blender, or if you import them in Milkshape or such? In the latter case those are importing artifacts from the md5 conversion process. As for inside Blender, some of those are really helpful in setting up nice animation systems, for games those aren't strictly required though. But when you have a proper source file with a nice rig-setup adjusting animations and adding new one is much more convenient then messing around with mostly FK game rigs.

cdxbow {l Wrote}:I can usually get md5 into smd without losing model integrity, if importing smd is better in blender, but you really need the full rig. Surely there are some nice open licenced fps hands somewhere?

Yes the meshes import fine, it's the rig that comes out really mangled (as both md5 and smd do not store all the rig information, really only those needed by the GPU to animate the mesh), and as a side effect of having all those separated .md5anim a bigger set of animations are a real pain to handle and I have yet to figure out a way to re-import them all into one convenient .blend file.
There are some decent freely licensed FPS hands, but they are either naked human or with contemporary gloves etc. and would look quite out of place in vanilla RE. The best would be if we had the high-poly version of the current player model (do we?) and would render a nice normal-map on an updated hud-hand mesh from that. But someone reworking the current mesh while keeping the UV in place to keep the same normal-map would be better then nothing.

cdxbow {l Wrote}:Thanks. Is [the TF model] rigged?

Yes and fully working in RE (at least it was back in RE1.2 or 1.0 times).

cdxbow {l Wrote}:Great models, but I think I agree with the quintux_v and ballist1c, not SF enough for RE at present. Add a flux capacitor, a plasma conduit and a few glowy bits and I think they would be fine.

I also think that with some small Sci/Fi changes they would fit quite ok. After all the weapons they would be replacing are somewhat realistic in concept currently also. The bigger problem I see is that they would really stick out compared to the other weapons quality wise... and no-one working to re-make the other weapons in the exact same style. Having a consistent set of weapons models (most likely done by the same artist) will always look better.

LuckyStrike-rx is dealing with some personal matters at the moment, so I really can't offer much at this time. If anyone were going to fix all the weapons and HUD hands, it'd be him most likely; so any effort would need to be coordinated through him. The first person legs were made using the player blend as the source, perhaps the HUD hands could be redone in this way too? (I think the reason there is no source for them is because it was based on the original full player model's existing blend).

qreeves {l Wrote}:The first person legs were made using the player blend as the source, perhaps the HUD hands could be redone in this way too? (I think the reason there is no source for them is because it was based on the original full player model's existing blend).

I think that is how they were done too originally, however since they are in view much closer the level of detail from the player-model isn't really sufficient (and the UV seams are really obvious).
You didn't get the high-poly source-file of the playermodel (used for normal-map baking) from the original creator, did you?

Julius {l Wrote}: I also think that with some small Sci/Fi changes they would fit quite ok. After all the weapons they would be replacing are somewhat realistic in concept currently also. The bigger problem I see is that they would really stick out compared to the other weapons quality wise... and no-one working to re-make the other weapons in the exact same style. Having a consistent set of weapons models (most likely done by the same artist) will always look better.

No. Just no. It feels totally half-arsed to rip someone else's lowpoly models off of a FOSS site, slap some neon strips on there, and call it a day. The work didn't even come from our community. None of our weapons look that realistic at all, IMO.

Plus, we need to establish our own theme. I really think that having a cohesive design template for all weapons would be great, and give us a unique visual identity. Something needs to be designed from the ground up to be 100% ours.

Here, I will link what i think would work well with our existing style, and would help transition into our own set of weapon models. The irregular shapes and twisting lines give it an alien/scifi feel, while the tough grays, nuts and bolts lend itself to an industrial theme. Also, the glowing orange contrast gives it a touch of scifi.

Well I don't really disagree, but who is going to make those high-quality weapon models? You?
Those two at Blenderswap at least are looking a lot better than what RE currently has, and are available now...

Julius {l Wrote}:Well I don't really disagree, but who is going to make those high-quality weapon models? You?

I wish. I know basic modeling already, but i am struggling to gain momentum and start in Blender. I am in deep with school as well.
However, this argument has really got me opening up Blender again. I've shown people design proposals before, and it's far past due for me to put my money where my mouth is.

Julius {l Wrote}:Those two at Blenderswap at least are looking a lot better than what RE currently has, and are available now...

As I have already stated, I disagree. Swapping in two models of a different theme just because they look a little bit better would look awkward and uncohesive to me.

The basic design theme is that which has been set by fleeky (for the player) and luckystrike (for weapons and vanities) and also that by jojo (in relation to the 2D elements). My original description to these people were: "It needs to be sleek, sporty, with glowing parts to help visibility, and provide a cartoon meets realistic SciFi feel. Colours should be vibrant, and have a metallic finish."

In the case of weapons, your mask should provide a material layer in the alpha channel, with the appropriate settings in the model config. The material mask should control (most of) the glowing parts on the model so that I can dim it in software as the ammo count decreases. It should have bones, and be tagged for "tag_weapon" and "tag_muzzle". Weapons can have animations if you wish, the names of which are the same as the player animations (it just shares the animation info with the parent at the moment, nobody has used it yet so I have no idea if this works either).

Vanity items should follow the same general rules as the weapons. The material mask is highly encouraged so the vanity looks more like the player. Materials for the player are done from two ends of the spectrum, at one end is the player personal colour (or whatever effect is overriding it), at the other is their team colour.

As far i know. The politic was to encourage custom model creation for the game, more than using existing asset. Though I guess it cant hurt to ise some if those match the game theme.

I'm actualy working on the rifle and sword (aiming to a quality above the pistol one) though I'm at the hospital right now so I can get thing done for now :/

I was in the armory looking through weapons and I found something a bit like the SF pistol ballist1c posted an image of, along with a few other weapons.
Actually it was quiet at work on Saturday night so I got a few hours to model, so I thought I would see do with weapons. I am that not happy with their overall look, and I need to integrate them with the models. I used the pistol graphic for inspiration and more than a little derivation. The models are pretty rough and the texture is, ah, a little derived and slapped on. The rifle is the worst because it's mostly the pistol mesh pulled into another shape with any retexturing. The scope was pinched of an RE rifle. Nonetheless if you wanted something to start with they would give you a leg up, the only model I am going to continue to work on is the the canon (and the texture). There are misfit, milkshape and obj formats in the zip, along with the texture.

Holy shiznit this is awesome.

Only thing I don't like much (and there is still time to change) is the gun's magazine. I talked about this when ballist1c originally posted it actually. I don't know, the position from which you'd pull the magazine out seems to unnatural. I think there very much exists a liminal space of reality in Red Eclipse and it is largely based on the human body and Newtonian physics.

Otherwise, it looks brilliant. The gun barrel at the top reminded me of GoldenEye on the N64, hehe. But yeah, really neat work. I t would be nice if the gun barrel was a little longer specifically for the rifle, as high-powered rifles are, which would not only give it an illusion of more power, but integrate well into the liminal space (e.g. the pistol is small and is weak; the rocket is enormous and blows you back 5 metres). Not sure if it would cause any problems will ugly wall clipping and stuff though.

All in all, amazing work, cdxbow! You made everyone's, but especially ballist1c's dream, come true! Really good stuff right there man, just lovin' it. I think we already have our candidate for Rifle 2.0.

right now i don't like them very much, because even though the texturing is nice, the model itself is horrendously low-poly.