quick hello!

[IkarusDowned]

Hi all,

My name is Nik,
I'm a professional software developer and I recently wanted to get back to my gaming / graphics programming life.
Roots contacted me through the gamedev.net Classifieds area, and he suggested I say hello on the forums

Currently I'm working on getting my build environment setup, but I'm looking forward to trying to contributing as much as I can.
So...where can I help

[Bertram]

Hi Nik,

and Welcome on board!

I do think, as a contributor, you should first set up a github account, if not done already, and drop by on the Valyria Tear issue list to get to know what are the current plans and discussion that aren't part of this forum yet.
https://github.com/Bertram25/ValyriaTear/issues

Also, it depends on your different skills in the different area of the game, and and how you want to participate, of course.
the most interesting post about what to do, the last time, was this one, in term of coding features:
https://github.com/Bertram25/ValyriaTea ... nt-9709808

(Basic triggers objects have since been implemented but can be improved).
Note also, that environmental sounds (looped sounds which volume is based on the distance the character is from its source point), and step sounds based on the terrain type when running are something I'm finding interesting.

The only thing I'm not interested with, are story proposals, and resources related to that, regarding the unreleased part of the story.
For the released part of the story, I open to any comment/improvements.

Best regards,

Bertram

[IkarusDowned]

Hi Bertram,

check on the github account, i've already grabbed the code and was poking around. tried to get things working with VC10 but was having some headaches with the a few of the libraries so i'm trying C::B and mingw out now.

I may ask questions about github like a real nublet for a while, as we use SVN (ugh) at work and GIT is relatively new for me.

No fear of story suggestions from me atm...I can safely say that trying to come up with a story idea is a) premature and b) I lack any real skill there.
I think I wanna get a bit more familiar with the code a little more before "commiting" to a single concept, but I am generally pretty good at optimizations in C / C++ so I can take a look at that?

I will post a reply on the thread in github as well to see if there are any suggestions from people not on the forums yet.

[Roots]

Don't worry about being new to git. It's new to me as well (only used it briefly 6 years ago), so you're in good company. It's more difficult to learn than SVN, but I feel like I'm getting closer to understanding how to use it properly.

Based on my experience bringing new developers into a project of this magnitude, I'd recommend that you start on something that is small and preferrably something that will have a visible result (ie, not just improving the speed of a certain block of code, but something that you can see change when you play the game). If you start out with a large task, it can be quite daunting when you aren't familiar with the code yet. Achieving a small but important task gives you some momentum and confidence that you can make a difference. I can think of a couple small tasks that I was planning to do myself, but I'll be happy to let you handle them. Just let me know when you're ready.

Also, there's some documentation on how the code works here: http://allacrost.sourceforge.net/wiki/i ... umentation

A lot of it is outdated, but it should give you a decent idea about how things are organized and how to do common tasks. That wiki is from Hero of Allacrost (VT's "father" project). It's currently uneditable because Sourceforge did some stuff a while back that broke our wiki we hosted there. I'm currently trying to get it migrated to a better location, but that won't happen for a while.

[Bertram]

Heya Nik,

check on the github account, i've already grabbed the code and was poking around. tried to get things working with VC10 but was having some headaches with the a few of the libraries so i'm trying C::B and mingw out now.

Ah ok. Are you on windows? If so, you might need that:
https://github.com/downloads/Bertram25/ ... .08.30.zip
Contains all the dependencies needed to compile on Windows.

If you're under linux, for instance C::B just works as an editor, but you might want to use cmake to create your make files, and update the cb file to use custom make files.

I may ask questions about github like a real nublet for a while, as we use SVN (ugh) at work and GIT is relatively new for me.

Don't worry, only those who coded git truely knows how to deal with it, without ever looking for the doc page.

No fear of story suggestions from me atm...I can safely say that trying to come up with a story idea is a) premature and b) I lack any real skill there.
I think I wanna get a bit more familiar with the code a little more before "commiting" to a single concept, but I am generally pretty good at optimizations in C / C++ so I can take a look at that?

Fine to me. Plus, doing optimizations will make you familiar to the code, so it sounds pretty relevant.
If you're getting bored of doing it, just have a look at the open issue, or open discussions thread about features/bug fixes that may come to your mind while optimizing.
Just try to use 4 spaces per indentation levels, and try to mimic the current code style. If there are questions, we can discuss them here.

Best regards,

Bertram

[IkarusDowned]

Roots> That's fine by me too. Let me get setup and I'll let you know when I'm ready. my day-job Japanese overlords are cracking the whip at the moment so please bear with ~_~

Bertram> yeah i saw that, but i'm going to try and build the deps myself for now to see what happens. I want to get familiar with using mingw. pretty smooth sailing so far, hardest thing was boost + mingw, but that was mostly due to...erm...misunderstandings still got a few deps to go, will let you know when i'm done

[IkarusDowned]

OK,
So, i'm up and running.
However...
I can't find that dang kid who steals the pen...like, anywhere....
I feel like a moron asking this, but where the heck is he?!

[Bertram]

Np,

The answer lies within this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 2xNr9bCN1E

I'll do an "official" walkthrough once we have a first release.

Good luck!

[Roots]

I really think you need to just make it easier for the players, Bertram. If they have to use a strategy guide to get through the first 5 minutes of the game, something is very wrong with the opening quest. (I managed to find him by myself, but I got lucky and it took me longer than it should have).

[Bertram]

We're already thinking about this point.

What are the tasks you were talking about with Ikarus?

[Bertram]

@Roots:
We've talking about the opening quest and many people from the testers told me that the quest was fine. So we're not gonna change this, at least not without something really better.
I fear Ikarus will just have to try a little bit harder, with the help of the video if he wants to earn time.
Ah, and I don't actually think a strategic guide is needed for the 5 minutes of the game, sincerely, I don't see why you suddenly seem so upset with the game start.

[Roots]

I hadn't spoken about anything directly with Ikarus yet, but I did have the following ideas in my head:

#1) Fixing bugs and improving the equip menu in menu mode (it doesn't show the proper selection or change in stats when selecting equipment to change)

#2) I had reported one small bug in shop mode that I still haven't gotten around to. I forgot exactly what it was, but it's somewhere in the issue's list on github.

#3) Improve enemy battle formations code. I think this one would be a lot of fun while not being a crazy challenge. Right now all enemy positions are fixed locations, and it looks pretty crappy. It would be nice to have an algorithm that looks at the number of enemies (and possibly also the size of the sprite) and build an appropriate battle formation. For example, one larger enemy and three small-sized enemies could have the larger sprite in the back, with the three small enemies surrounding it in the front (think of minions protecting their leader). Perhaps also we could have several different formations (lined up, a ">" formation, a "<" formation, a circle, etc.) and the map creator can optionally pass in this formation type to the enemy parties that they put on the field to tell battle mode how to arrange the enemy placement on the field (and by default it would just select a random formation).

This is a pretty isolated problem in that the inputs are simple, the output is simple (just needs to set positions and not worry about anything else in the battle). Yet the implementation will be a challenge. I wouldn't mind working on it myself if I didn't have a million other things I also need to do. It's not something that has a high priority, but I feel it's a good task for someone new to the project, and has the excellent benefit of making battles look more aesthetically appealling (as opposed to the current static enemy placements).

[Bertram]

Hi,

#1) Fixing bugs and improving the equip menu in menu mode (it doesn't show the proper selection or change in stats when selecting equipment to change)

I tried to reproduce that bug but without any luck so far. The menu drawing function is very sub-optimized and any optimizations to not re-render the text on each draw would be very welcome.

#3) Improve enemy battle formations code. I think this one would be a lot of fun while not being a crazy challenge. Right now all enemy positions are fixed locations, and it looks pretty crappy. It would be nice to have an algorithm that looks at the number of enemies (and possibly also the size of the sprite) and build an appropriate battle formation. For example, one larger enemy and three small-sized enemies could have the larger sprite in the back, with the three small enemies surrounding it in the front (think of minions protecting their leader). Perhaps also we could have several different formations (lined up, a ">" formation, a "<" formation, a circle, etc.) and the map creator can optionally pass in this formation type to the enemy parties that they put on the field to tell battle mode how to arrange the enemy placement on the field (and by default it would just select a random formation).

This is a pretty isolated problem in that the inputs are simple, the output is simple (just needs to set positions and not worry about anything else in the battle). Yet the implementation will be a challenge. I wouldn't mind working on it myself if I didn't have a million other things I also need to do. It's not something that has a high priority, but I feel it's a good task for someone new to the project, and has the excellent benefit of making battles look more aesthetically appealling (as opposed to the current static enemy placements).

I guess you don't remember, but you gave that very task to me at the time I was around in the Allacrost project.
I actually made the patch, but found afterwards it was waaay too complicated and changed my mind since then. Note that custom monster formation is already handled in the valyria engine. The AddEnemy function permits to optionally set the x and y coords of the enemy along with its id.
I don't plan to do more and do actually think it's necessary. So I guess you'd better save that for Allacrost if you really want it.

Best regards,

[IkarusDowned]

Hey guys,

Just wanted to give you a heads up about my lack of activity the last couple days. had a HUGE dump of RL get in the way, but I should be back looking thru stuff tomorow.

@Roots:
can you send me some more info about #1? I will try to take a look and see what I can find

[Roots]

@Roots:
can you send me some more info about #1? I will try to take a look and see what I can find

Okay, here's how to replicate the bug. First, you need to buy a Leather Cloak for Kalya and a Tunic for Bronann. Equip both of these. Now when I go to Kayla and select Equip on her Body Armor, it correctly shows me the Old Willow Dress as an alternative replacement. But if I go to Bronann and select his Body Armor Equipment and try to change the Tunic he has equipped, it correctly shows the Rookie Tunic at the top right window as a possible selection, but if you look at the bottom right window where it compares the equipment stats, it says "Old Willow Dress". So somehow the code is getting confused and is looking at the wrong piece of armor when comparing the stats. The task is to fix this error.

The code for this can be found in src/modes/menu/. At some point (with Allacrost) I was planning to go through that code and improve the structure and flexibility of it as it's only two files. I kind of want it to model the shop mode code more (src/modes/shop/). But that's not something I think we should worry about doing now. Just wanted to warn you that things can be kinda sloppy in the menu code right now, if I remember correctly.

[Bertram]

Okay, I'll try also to reproduce also, just to get the point.

You should open an issue in the issue tracker, I guess.

[IkarusDowned]

I've added a couple tickets, and looks like I might have solved the problem...I'll update the ticket with some info.
Now i need to learn how to setup it up so I have my own git repo so you can see the change...

[IkarusDowned]

I've made the fix and commited to my branch
https://github.com/IkarusDowned/Valyria ... fd32e7516f

I also added the change in stats to show +/- even when you are equiping for the first time. Its not really a "bug," but I think it feels more uniform if you show the change in your stats even when originally empty (albeit slightly redundant)

[Roots]

Awesome. Yes, the interface (and the code in general) definitely needs improvement. A couple years ago I was doing some design work trying to improve the look and feel of the main menu. You can check out what I had proposed here:

http://www.allacrost.org/forum/viewtopi ... =21&t=5015

Eventually Allacrost will have a much improved interface and character menu, and I'm sure we want to improve the interface for VT as well. Although I'm not sure how high of a priority it should be, as it will be a lot of work and require an almost complete re-write of the menu code. Still, any small improvements you can make to the current interface to better show a change in stats, etc. is highly worth it.

[Redshrike]

"@Roots:
We've talking about the opening quest and many people from the testers told me that the quest was fine. So we're not gonna change this, at least not without something really better.
I fear Ikarus will just have to try a little bit harder, with the help of the video if he wants to earn time.
Ah, and I don't actually think a strategic guide is needed for the 5 minutes of the game, sincerely, I don't see why you suddenly seem so upset with the game start."
Note: it is really *not* fine as-is. I got stuck on it as well, and had to watch the video. I generally do not expect random NPCs to start acting differently after a quest is given without any hint of their involvement (or even with hints pointing away from their involvement--after all, the pen was lost according to the bard, not stolen). And I certainly do not expect a previously inaccessible area to become accessible for no reason other than mere convenience for the flow of a quest. That's just not right. Another artist was trying it out at the same time, and his thoughts were very similar, so it's not just me.
Even if you don't get particularly caught on any one bit, it still adds up to 20-30 minutes of wandering around the map, aimlessly looking for things. That really isn't particularly fun, and it doesn't do anything to advance the plot or illuminate the gameplay either.

[qubodup]

Hi Redshrike!

Orlinn is probably the most hated character in VT.

Note: it is most certainly *not* fine. I got stuck on it as well, and had to watch the video. I generally do NOT expect random NPCs to start acting differently after a quest is given without any hint of their involvement. And I CERTAINLY do not expect a previously inaccessible area to become accessible for no reason other than mere convenience for the flow of a quest. That's just not right.

I found the quest frustrating, but that's quite normal for jRPGs to do to me so I probably am not the target audience. Are you a player of many games with similar style and mechanics and find they don't have comparably frustrating quests?

Having played a few jRPGs, I learned that when you don't know what to do, you have to start talking to every person. As soon as you talk to Orlinn, he obviously reveals his involvement and that you have to catch/find him. The issue that you have is that there is no lead that he might be involved and that you have to find the right NPC to talk to by trial and error? If yes, do you have a suggestion, how to easily add a hint to the current structure of the quest, that Orlinn might be a person to ask? One simple thing might be just having Georges say "Talk to the other villagers, perhaps they have seen my pen." at the end of his "find my pen" speech.

I didn't realize there was a "suddenly accessible region" after start of the quest. The cliff is not accessible before the quest?

The first time I played, it threw me off that Orlinn's first hiding spot wasn't the region to which he ran away but one region (level transition) further. I was very sure that he would be one transition away, simply because I expected the first quest to be straightforward. When I finally found him in the next area, I was scared by the prospect of the quest being very hard. I expect a multi-stage quest to become harder with each step, so I assumed #2 and #3 would be even harder to find and might be placed even further away. Especially with the north west area being accessible, the space of possible hiding spots is quite large and the variance of "hiding between objects" and "hiding on a cliff" makes it even more complex. All this is quite harsh for a first quest. I think the last hiding spot is the easiest to find and the second one is the hardest (because you don't expect him to not hide behind something, so you're focused on things you can reach and look behind and it's a surprise that Orlinn is out in the open (at least visible) instead).

VT devs: Is the intention of the quest to make the player feel clueless and kind of helpless/tired by having to check for all the nooks and crannies in the game world that is accessible? Or is the quest actually not supposed to stress the patience of the player?

Simply because it's the first quest, I would suggest making this quest easy and having a similar but harder one later in the game, referencing the first hide and seek quest (for example by having hiding spots that have the same nature: building, cliff, tree).

One idea how the quest could be made easier and reward attentive (reading) players: The kid could reveal the nature of his next hiding spot by shouting "But you'll never find me hiding behind the buildings!", "You'll never find me hiding on top of the cliffs!" and "You'll never find me hiding behind the trees!" or "You'll never find me hiding behind the..."/"Hey, why am I telling you my hiding spots?!" - The explanation for the hint-giving would be that he is excited and the adrenaline rush makes him speak what he thinks without realizing it.

PS: I think it's acceptable to tolerate imperfect quests/battles, as long as they are not broken, rather than constantly improving them. A complete game with issues has more value than a perfectly balanced but incomplete game. Minimizing tweaking time spent by the core developer team and instead have community members make specific suggestions for tweaking might be a compromise.

PPS: I noticed that "hide and seek" and "hide n seek" are used inconsistently, at least for variable names, for that quest.

PPPS: Georges reminds me of Cacofonix, another "village's artist" that nobody wants to practice their art.

Sorry for probably being repetitive and blabbing too much in this post. I'm currently fighting a fever.

[Roots]

I completely agree with all of the criticism on the first "quest" (if you can even call it a quest). Finding that little brat is too hard when you are not given a single clue as to his whereabouts, and he can be completely blocked from view by hiding around the buildings, etc. It is incredibly quick and easy if you already know what to do and where he's going to hide at, but it is extremely frustrating and annoying on your first play through. I generally keep out of all of the quest/story design stuff, as that is really Bertram's thing. I do agree that the quest needs some massive improvement, otherwise you will cause impatient/frustrated people to just give up on the game before they've even started playing the real game.

[NaN]

Ha ha. I've also wasted something like 15 minutes looking for his first hiding spot. The other two felt much easier. In all it felt more like a aptitude test than a quest, lol.

I think I've talked to pretty much everyone in the village while looking for him. Imho it would help if the two chatting women next to the shop would give a hint and maybe the guy at village entrance just to be sure.

The women could tell, that the boy ran down towards village entrance. And the guy would state he heard some noise further upwards.

[Redshrike]

Hi Redshrike!

Orlinn is probably the most hated character in VT.

Note: it is most certainly *not* fine. I got stuck on it as well, and had to watch the video. I generally do NOT expect random NPCs to start acting differently after a quest is given without any hint of their involvement. And I CERTAINLY do not expect a previously inaccessible area to become accessible for no reason other than mere convenience for the flow of a quest. That's just not right.

I found the quest frustrating, but that's quite normal for jRPGs to do to me so I probably am not the target audience. Are you a player of many games with similar style and mechanics and find they don't have comparably frustrating quests?

I have sampled of the big name classics (ff 3-6, chrono trigger, lufia I-II, Tales of Phantasia, etc), and they generally avoid these issues. They introduce your character concisely and have you doing interesting things right off the bat. My personal favorite example is final fantasy IV, where your protagonist (Cecil) is already a grizzled war veteran, and shown in the middle of a mission--and through his (relatively brief) interactions with characters we get a good sense of his inner conflict and personality. Final Fantasy VI is perhaps the most famous example with its compelling cinematic intro. You start off with a very potent demonstration of the Empire's Magitek military, and there isn't a single fetch quest in sight. I think this is more of an issue with lesser entries in the genre. But regardless, genre is a poor excuse for bad game design.

I didn't realize there was a "suddenly accessible region" after start of the quest. The cliff is not accessible before the quest?

The path behind the building is blocked until you reach that part of the quest, when it conveniently becomes passable.

PS: I think it's acceptable to tolerate imperfect quests/battles, as long as they are not broken, rather than constantly improving them. A complete game with issues has more value than a perfectly balanced but incomplete game. Minimizing tweaking time spent by the core developer team and instead have community members make specific suggestions for tweaking might be a compromise.

While I generally agree with this, I think the game would be better with the wholesale removal of this quest. It doesn't teach game mechanics and it doesn't advance the plot, either--which are both things that really ought to be happening instead. I played the game for an hour without getting a sense of who my character was--how old he is, what his parents do, what his dreams are, etc.

Look, I don't mean to be down on the game as a whole. I *really* like the overall look of it--the disparate assets have been brought together into a cohesive whole, and neat tricks like the highlights on the window add quite a bit of pizzaz. But 20-30 minutes (or much more, if you get stuck anywhere in the quest as I did) of aimless running around will leave most players aggravated and burned out, if they make it through at all. I found it much harder to enjoy the game once I got out of the village, and quit soon after.

[Roots]

[

PS: I think it's acceptable to tolerate imperfect quests/battles, as long as they are not broken, rather than constantly improving them. A complete game with issues has more value than a perfectly balanced but incomplete game. Minimizing tweaking time spent by the core developer team and instead have community members make specific suggestions for tweaking might be a compromise.

While I generally agree with this, I think the game would be better with the wholesale removal of this quest. It doesn't teach game mechanics and it doesn't advance the plot, either--which are both things that really ought to be happening instead. I played the game for an hour without getting a sense of who my character was--how old he is, what his parents do, what his dreams are, etc.

Look, I don't mean to be down on the game as a whole. I *really* like the overall look of it--the disparate assets have been brought together into a cohesive whole, and neat tricks like the highlights on the window add quite a bit of pizzaz. But 20-30 minutes (or much more, if you get stuck anywhere in the quest as I did) of aimless running around will leave most players aggravated and burned out, if they make it through at all. I found it much harder to enjoy the game once I got out of the village, and quit soon after.

Quoting this because it is exactly how I feel and is explained better than I think I could have done so myself. I've kept myself free from any major involvement in the story or gameplay, largely because I don't want to get too invested in the project when I already have my own to work on. But for this game to truely excel, you really need to have solid design elements. No amount of superb code, high quality art, or nice music will substitute for a well-designed, enjoyable game to play. There are far too many unanswered questions in the beginning of the game that just leave me feeling puzzled. Why does Kayla hate Bronann so much? Why are all the adults in the village on edge about something? Why is the army coming to the village? Why does everything in the village still seem "normal" after the army's approach is revealed? Why is Orlinn so entranced and no one else is affected? Why does that damn wolf appear again and again; What is it after or what is it protecting?

I'm sure that these questions will be answered in time as the game goes on. But there's over an hour of playtime in this release (assuming that you don't get stuck on some of these objectives, otherwise it's considerably more), and after you get out of the village nothing happens that explains anything about what's going on or who the characters really are. You just keep getting hit with more mysteries and no answers to them. You have to satisfy the player's appetite for curiosity somewhat to keep them interested and engaged in the story. A solid story, and telling of that story, is crucial for a game like an RPG. Even if it's just a short dialogue between the two main characters that shines some light on one of these questions as they make their way through the dungeon maps, at least that is something.