quick hello!

Re: quick hello!

Postby Bertram » 30 Dec 2012, 02:01

Hi everyone, :)

First of all, I must say that I'm honored that VT is acquiring enough interest to raise such discussions.

The Orlinn first quest:

I won't get in answering all the questions I've read there, yet, to sum up, yes, you need more hints about who could have seen the pen, and where Orlinn is hidden, but that's about it. Where you're in a village searching for something, you happen to talk to people, and that's where I didn't add everything I wanted so far, and for obvious scheduling reasons.

That's where I'll request a pro-active help from the ones disliking it. What dialogue or hint would you precisely add, where, when, and how. If nobody provides something interesting, I'll do it in my own way but don't complain afterwards. ;)

Ah, and yes, I blocked the path behind the house at the beginning because at the time, I was in a extra-twisted mood (you can even speak of cruelty) ;) Should I remove that? I do think not. Try and convince me.

And yes, nobody wants to hear Georges poetry, btw. ;)

I've seen this also:
Roots {l Wrote}: I've kept myself free from any major involvement in the story or gameplay, largely because I don't want to get too invested in the project when I already have my own to work on.

Well, I understand that Roots has another project to revive, yet to make it clear, I'm not interested in any proposal about the unreleased part of the story, anyway. Adding side-quests, or fine-tuning the existing stuff, just as it is being discussed now is of course fine. :)
I might also sound as a dictator, but I'm the only one that will have the last word on what could enter the game and what won't. Simply because it is my game. Any other person deciding something without talking with me first will be exposed to my rejection in the inclusion of stuff in the game. That said, the way we've been working so far is great and people around are really nice and pro-active, even when not knowing GIT. ;)

Lack of answers according to Roots:
@Roots: I also like how you're musing and complaining about the lack of answers, speaking of a too long gameplay time without any of them and all. I do think it's revealing how eager you are about answers about that, and that's what I wanted to achieve. Hence, I won't add anything yet, as the first answers are planned for the second half-part of the episode I.

So everyone, stay tuned, and let's finish the few things needed to make a second release candidate for the first Half-Episode something that will fit more what the radical dreamers are expecting. ;)

Best regards,
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Re: quick hello!

Postby qubodup » 01 Jan 2013, 23:12

It's the first quest. Let's have some annoying easy-ness... :)

Precise suggestions for additions:

1. At the end of Flora's dialogue, let her tell Bronann:
"He's probably 'musing' around the cliffs in the village center right now."
or, if you want consistency with the hint given when leaving his home, let him say it to himself when leaving the store.

2. At the end of the georges dialogue, let him tell:
"Ask around the village, maybe somebody else has seen it." (or maybe in a silly poetic way "Inquire our comrades in the settlement, perhaps somebody has laid their eyes on it."
or let Bronann tell it to himself ("I should ask around the village, maybe somebody has found the pen...").

3. When Orlinn is running away, he could give away hints of his hiding spots (he's a kid on adrenaline...). Lines like:
a) "But you'll never find me hiding behind the buildings!"
b) "You'll never find me hiding on top of the cliffs!"
c) "You'll never find me hiding behind the trees!" or "You'll never find me hiding behind the..."/"Hey, why am I telling you my hiding spots?!" if you want the last to be harder :)

4. I haven't noticed the rock before searching for Orlinn. Once (if) you spot Orlinn on top of the cliff, you will probably check the rock again, even if you had noticed it not being interactive before.
In-game, the removal of the rock throws questions of course: is the rock too hard to move for Bronann but not for Orlinn? Has Orlinn moved the rock? Has orlin squezed past it (Can some characters squeeze past things?) If yes, why has it been removed?
I think I would suggest removing the rock or allowing Bronann to move it (at any time, see below).
There is motivation to move the rock before the quest, because the player might have spotted the chest hidden there, so if you want to add a "move rock" dialog with the rock, it probably should be available before the quest as well...
This first quest will teach the player a lot, so if you have a rock moving dialogue, it will tell the player: "when you want to get rid of barriers, talk to them in this game", so whether you want to add it, should depend on whether you want to add such dialogues consistently throughout the game. :)

5. I don't remember if there is a quest hint system in the menu and I'm a bit lazy/short on time to try to figure this out via the source code, but if there is, it should be updated with the relevant info (usually: who?, where?, why?) at any step, so that a player who skips all dialogue (it can happen accidentally... people can read things but instantly forget...), can re-gain the knowledge that their player character has.

6. Another thing VT could do is restrict access to the nort west area, which is a horrible thing regarding freedom but a good thing regarding beginner-friendlyness, as beginners might wander there, thinking the find quest involves that area as well. I can't decide what I'd like better.

Does anybody have any other suggestions on how to streamline this first quest?
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Re: quick hello!

Postby Bertram » 02 Jan 2013, 12:51

Hi qubodup, :)

Did I wish you a Happy New Year yet? ;)

Thanks for the precise suggestions.

qubodup {l Wrote}:It's the first quest. Let's have some annoying easy-ness... :)

1. At the end of Flora's dialogue, let her tell Bronann:
"He's probably 'musing' around the cliffs in the village center right now."
or, if you want consistency with the hint given when leaving his home, let him say it to himself when leaving the store.


Fine, I'll add that :)

qubodup {l Wrote}:2. At the end of the georges dialogue, let him tell:
"Ask around the village, maybe somebody else has seen it." (or maybe in a silly poetic way "Inquire our comrades in the settlement, perhaps somebody has laid their eyes on it."
or let Bronann tell it to himself ("I should ask around the village, maybe somebody has found the pen...").

XD. I like that. And I'll take the silly poetic one, said by M. Georges himself.

qubodup {l Wrote}:3. When Orlinn is running away, he could give away hints of his hiding spots (he's a kid on adrenaline...). Lines like:
a) "But you'll never find me hiding behind the buildings!"
b) "You'll never find me hiding on top of the cliffs!"
c) "You'll never find me hiding behind the trees!" or "You'll never find me hiding behind the..."/"Hey, why am I telling you my hiding spots?!" if you want the last to be harder :)


Good idea. I might be a bit more vague when adding it, but I see the spirit, and I'll definitely use the c) humour. :)

qubodup {l Wrote}:4. I haven't noticed the rock before searching for Orlinn. Once (if) you spot Orlinn on top of the cliff, you will probably check the rock again, even if you had noticed it not being interactive before.
In-game, the removal of the rock throws questions of course: is the rock too hard to move for Bronann but not for Orlinn? Has Orlinn moved the rock? Has orlin squezed past it (Can some characters squeeze past things?) If yes, why has it been removed?
I think I would suggest removing the rock or allowing Bronann to move it (at any time, see below).
There is motivation to move the rock before the quest, because the player might have spotted the chest hidden there,


I'll be honest, I also have RL pressure for removing it, while curiously, the people knowing the 'trick' are becoming as vicious as me and start thinking about letting it. ;)
The argument you've put that has the more weight is the fact that it's counter intuitive when seeing the chest before, or simply if the player has 'checked' this area and told himself, "no I can't pass here."

Fine, I'll remove it.

qubodup {l Wrote}:so if you want to add a "move rock" dialog with the rock, it probably should be available before the quest as well...
This first quest will teach the player a lot, so if you have a rock moving dialogue, it will tell the player: "when you want to get rid of barriers, talk to them in this game", so whether you want to add it, should depend on whether you want to add such dialogues consistently throughout the game. :)


Interesting case indeed, that I will keep in mind for later, but not for a hidden thing.

qubodup {l Wrote}:5. I don't remember if there is a quest hint system in the menu and I'm a bit lazy/short on time to try to figure this out via the source code, but if there is, it should be updated with the relevant info (usually: who?, where?, why?) at any step, so that a player who skips all dialogue (it can happen accidentally... people can read things but instantly forget...), can re-gain the knowledge that their player character has.


The Quest Log just made it to 'master' thanks to the hard work of IkarusDowned. I now need to make a few adjustement on it, some discussion is still on simplifying it a bit before completing it for full use.

qubodup {l Wrote}:6. Another thing VT could do is restrict access to the nort west area, which is a horrible thing regarding freedom but a good thing regarding beginner-friendlyness, as beginners might wander there, thinking the find quest involves that area as well. I can't decide what I'd like better.


While I see why you'd want to block it, I do think that it's not a good idea. First of all, there are two chests there, one obvious, one much less. ;)
Secondly, I might add a few scene there to make it more lively. And in Third, I'd like the player to know about Kalya's place, might help for later.
Anyway, if you have other arguments, feel free to post :)

Thanks a lot for the constructive help done here. I really appreciate it.

Regards,
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Re: quick hello!

Postby Zabin » 02 Jan 2013, 15:15

Well, I thought I'd tell you guys about my experiences with the first quest "Orlinn plays hide and seek". I probably just got lucky on the first hiding spot because on my second pass on that map, Orlinn's AI made him pop out from under the roof's overhang and I saw him "expose himself" for a couple seconds and then he went back into hiding. I thought the scripting on the AI here was nicely done. It was cute how Orlinn's AI blew his hiding spot. It's was like he's peeking out to see if your coming and then darts back under. It was good fun finding him that time :) The second hiding spot was easy to find. I knew from the beginning that there was a secret spot behind the house. So when I saw Orlinn on the cliffs I knew instantly the blocked path behind the house was opened.

Redshrike pointed out how the blocked path conveniently opens up for the quest- I'll admit thats weird but... I understand why you blocked it- as I've thought about having secret spots in my game too. My game is heavily text-based so when a player tries to enter a secret place without the condition that allows him to pass the script will say something like "There seems to have been an avalanche and the path appears to be blocked" and later when the player has the condition that allows him to pass it'll say "It seems the avalanche has been cleared and the path is passable now." That's just an example of what could be said in regards to this situation in your game. I don't know if that would fit in with your game just trying to give some input with my knowledge in game making.

I agree that more hints are necessary but I truly enjoyed this quest, though like I said I might have got lucky :P
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Re: quick hello!

Postby Bertram » 02 Jan 2013, 18:01

Hi!

The suggestions made by qubodup have been added in:
https://github.com/Bertram25/ValyriaTea ... 855a7eee3c

The hidden passage blocker has also been removed.

Regards,
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