[map] tonatiuh (1.1b)

[map] tonatiuh (1.1b)

Postby bonifarz » 11 Aug 2013, 14:41

tonatiuh.jpeg
This is my first serious attempt to make a detailed trial map. The difficulty is advanced, but not as hard as for some other unofficial maps.
The /mapmusic is set to galactic-temple. That's just to test some custom music with a public domain ogg file.
tonatiuh1.1b.zip
a trial map of advanced difficulty, two dmo recordings included.
(2.19 MiB) Downloaded 169 times

Here is a summary of the version changes.
{l Code}: {l Select All Code}
version 1.1b
* Tilted spikes block fixed - yeah, i never noticed that one
* Clipped the sniper spot so it does no longer work as super-difficult shortcut
* Checked again that all torches have noclip and clipped slopes
* Moved the trial start to the entrance
* Some minor changes hardly noticeable
version 1.1
* Finally added a start checkpoint. Reason: ticket 585
* Noclip on all spikes to prevent weird collision
version 1.0
* Added "random" variations to the length of the spikes.
* Added decorative geometry: Demonical statue.
* Added decorative geometry: Round mask.
* Replaced the outdoor sounds.
* fixed positions of some trees and all torch particles.
* Removed the sandbox at the top.
version 0.8
* Recreated parts of the golden mask geometry.
* New spike geometry for corners.
* Added a few "easter eggs", hidden paths that are not shortcuts.
* Raised numplayers to avoid spawn queues.
version 0.7
* Both dmo records are included, one easy way (new), one fast time (97s).
* Added some mine turrets for onslaught trial (/trialghost 0, /minesub1/2 0).
* Added an affinity and player starts for gauntlet, but this is "mission impossible" since checkpoints are ignored.
* Added a few gaps and shattered bricks (un-/clipped) to break up some monotony.
* Fixed some torches that lost some flags via copy/paste
version 0.6.1
* One corridor was again too dark, therefore the small update.
* Replaced the dmo file, lap record: 97 seconds.
* Minor changes in geometry and blendmap.
version 0.6
* Fixed a shortcut discovered by Michel, thanks.
* Moved a respawn-point and added another one.
* Clip around and noclip on the torches.
* Most checkpoints are now marked with hexagonal stone plates.
* Decorative geometry: Stone statue.
* Decorative geometry: Grim face - damn, that's really not easy to model with octrees =)
* Some simple stone ceilings added.
* Light colour, vlayer texture and cloud vars adjusted as suggested by TristamK.
* A bit of dark red fog, not sure if it really helps here.
* Some compromise with the relative size of light ents/models/particles.
* New finish particles, teleport points now to the temple entrance.
* 3 Screenshots updated
* dmo file updated, but I am too lazy now to make a good one ;)
version 0.5
* Two more checkpoints when kicking around the sun orb
* Lots of blendmap painting inside and outside the temple
* Colder ambient light
* Some changes in the outdoor geometry
version 0.4
* The narrow corridors are now as wide as a standing player
* Blendmaps added to paint mossy temple walls
* Lightprecision bumped up to 128 to keep the file size reasonable
* The spike patterns are not as symmetric anymore
* Various decorative geometry fixes
* Some 180 tree mapmodels added
version 0.3
* Final spike section reworked
* "Diagonal" spikes as decorative geometry
Version 0.2
* Glitching through slopes should be fixed, crouch jumping works now as it should.
* Wall running around the sun sphere  is much easier now. The old route serves as a shortcut.
* Lighting changes around and inside the sun sphere.

As usual, constructive feedback is appreciated.
Attachments
tonatiuh.0.6.inner1.jpeg
a respawn point in the temple
tonatiuh.0.6.outer.jpeg
the sun temple site
tonatiuh.end.jpeg
the sun orb in the center of the temple
Last edited by bonifarz on 19 Dec 2013, 22:49, edited 11 times in total.
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Re: [map] tonatiuh

Postby Unnamed » 11 Aug 2013, 16:04

It's not easy indeed.
I had problems to see in the last corridor (see screenshot) where no death material is. You should add lights where no spikes are.
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screenshot.0143.jpg
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Re: [map] tonatiuh

Postby bonifarz » 11 Aug 2013, 17:26

Unnamed {l Wrote}:I had problems to see in the last corridor (see screenshot) where no death material is. You should add lights where no spikes are.

Ow, that is not intended, seems I wiped a torch by mistake. Also, I am not happy with the obstacles there and will probably change that section again.
EDIT: Done, as of version 0.3. The pace of the section should be much faster. Also added some diagonal spikes for the the "edges", although I don't really get them to look as I want.
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Re: [map] tonatiuh

Postby TristamK » 12 Aug 2013, 10:51

This map is pretty good and played it well. I like the map where you need to think about passing. But this map can be improved.
-Can you make a ziggurat more like a real ziggurat ? Also you can build around it jungle or put ziggurat on a flying island. This I think is a good idea.
-Spikes looks good. You can add more variation ot it but this spikes looks much better then on all time-trial maps
-Do you mind about using more than one texture? : \
-So small light source for so big light. If you want more light - then put a torch in dark places, and in other areas do ceiling window.
-For more contrast try to use a lower ambient settings
-Narrow-tunnels don't work very well.
-The angles between the walls of spikes you can replace by the column
-I didn't understand what the ball in the center: D. Try to add to the map more plot.
-A bit hard to move on spheres....
-Step with the dark spaces between studs became more interesting
-Wall with rooms with big sphere can look much better on the top.
Sorry for my bad English. Sometimes i use google translator.
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Re: [map] tonatiuh

Postby bonifarz » 12 Aug 2013, 14:17

TristamK {l Wrote}:This map is pretty good and played it well.
Thanks for the feedback. Playability is much more important to me than looks, as the latter can be improved.
TristamK {l Wrote}:I like the map where you need to think about passing.
I hope it is clear where to go in most places, though.
TristamK {l Wrote}:But this map can be improved.
Of course it can, hence version 0.x and not 1.x ;)
TristamK {l Wrote}:-Can you make a ziggurat more like a real ziggurat ? Also you can build around it jungle or put ziggurat on a flying island. This I think is a good idea.

Image Ziggurats are babylonian, right?
ImageI aimed for a mesoamerican style.
A background scenery will be a nice thing, i also thought of some vegetation on a floating island, it is just hard to make that look good.
TristamK {l Wrote}:-Spikes looks good. You can add more variation ot it but this spikes looks much better then on all time-trial maps
Yes, breaking translational symmetry will help and is easy to do.
TristamK {l Wrote}:-Do you mind about using more than one texture? : \
Hahah, yes I plan to use more than 3 textures, I just need to decide how. Probably it is best to start with the ceiling, e.g. the rocks in sign look pretty good.
TristamK {l Wrote}:-So small light source for so big light. If you want more light - then put a torch in dark places, and in other areas do ceiling window.
Yeah, I thought of that, too. I am hesitant to place more light sources, but maybe i really should. Ceiling windows with sky textures might do the trick.
TristamK {l Wrote}:-For more contrast try to use a lower ambient settings
Will do.
TristamK {l Wrote}:-Narrow-tunnels don't work very well.
Is it too annoying to enter them without losing time? Seems I should make them about as wide as in hinder, eh?
TristamK {l Wrote}:-The angles between the walls of spikes you can replace by the column
You mean the diagonal spikes, right? Feels too empty. The rectangular pillars earlier looked bad, but cylindrical ones are a good idea.
TristamK {l Wrote}:-I didn't understand what the ball in the center: D. Try to add to the map more plot.
Oh, there is not much of setting here. The name refers to the sun god of aztec mythology, the spikes are a cliché for human sacrifice pits and gold was sometimes associated with the sun in mesoamerican cultures, so I thought a large golden sphere would make a nice shrine for the sun god.
TristamK {l Wrote}:-A bit hard to move on spheres....
You mean the wall kicking, right? It is a bit special, yeah.
TristamK {l Wrote}:-Step with the dark spaces between studs became more interesting
You refer to Unnamed's screenshot, right? I think it fits better now with the pace and difficulty curve.
TristamK {l Wrote}:-Wall with rooms with big sphere can look much better on the top.
Because I placed sky "textures" on the ceiling? I somehow liked the mood of stepping into warm lighting.
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Re: [map] tonatiuh

Postby TristamK » 12 Aug 2013, 17:46

Thanks for the feedback

You are welcome :)
Is it too annoying to enter them without losing time? Seems I should make them about as wide as in hinder, eh?

Yea, try make it more wider.
Because I placed sky "textures" on the ceiling? I somehow liked the mood of stepping into warm lighting.

Yes. Look on sreenshot. Try make like this. It can improve look. Also you can increase the height of the ceiling so that it is higher above the sphere
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screenshot.0114.png
Sorry for my bad English. Sometimes i use google translator.
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Re: [map] tonatiuh

Postby bonifarz » 13 Aug 2013, 17:42

Update to version 0.4, for changes see the text box above.
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Re: [map] tonatiuh

Postby Ulukai » 13 Aug 2013, 19:38

Looking forward to trying this one out, will post feedback when I do.
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Re: [map] tonatiuh

Postby bonifarz » 14 Aug 2013, 23:38

Another update (0.5) with a focus on the blendmaps. Screenshots and dmo are left unchanged, gameplay is essentially the same.
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Re: [map] tonatiuh

Postby TristamK » 15 Aug 2013, 12:24

Ok, iam checked last version of your map. It looks better but you can increase quality of your map much more.
Feedback :
-You must add noclip flag to all torch models
-Size of torch and particles on them must comply with size of light. Try increase size of torch models
-Blendmap looks bad, boni) . If outside it looks isn't bad then in building in looks bad. Try use different texture for blendmap IN building.
-Still one texture on the floor and walls :D
-spikes still look repetitive. Try create more sets of spikes. You can change not only direction but texture too (try change voffset maybe)
-You still can change celling in the middle of map.
-In hall the ball you can change size of some spikes.
-as an alternative source of lighting you can make lamps that weigh on the ropes or chains
-Gameplay is better then before. But map don't have enough variants in the passing
-Corridors on map look to cubic. You can change celling on them. Try to make it more rounded or triangular
-After passing map you fall from the hight and when you fall illusion of space near the ziggurat is losing
-Try set /skyglare 1
-Try add clouds
-Try add fog to map
-Try add wooden contractions or other details on map and to the corridors on map
-you can add rain like on map wet on walking clouds like on my map skyintricary
-In the hall with the ball you can add a small flying orange sparks
-You can add particles than can be activated by the trigger
-Try Use shrubs as vines (like on my map dw_canals-normal)
Sorry for my bad English. Sometimes i use google translator.
The official group of the Cube 2 Sauerbraten and Red Eclipse in vkontakte -> https://vk.com/cube_engine_news - VK support English too ;) . Also you can find all news about Cube 2\Red Eclipse in this group too
Topic with FULL information about Time-Trial . All maps , video , tutorials here . Also here you can see all best times on maps .
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Re: [map] tonatiuh

Postby bonifarz » 15 Aug 2013, 14:31

Thanks again for the long list of suggestions. I will try to address them all.
TristamK {l Wrote}:-You must add noclip flag to all torch models
This also needs clipping on the niches. Trivial anyway.
TristamK {l Wrote}:-Size of torch and particles on them must comply with size of light. Try increase size of torch models
I think in a dark room a small torch can have a very large subjective light radius. Larger torches feel a bit odd, but that is just my impression.
TristamK {l Wrote}:-Blendmap looks bad, boni) . If outside it looks isn't bad then in building in looks bad. Try use different texture for blendmap IN building.
I am a bit concerned with this one. I rather felt the opposite, that the blending works fine inside and looks bad outdoors, where it only serves as a distant background. I tried the grass textures by Appleflap and Jojo before, and they really look terrible when you try to blend them with the stone tiles, the normal maps are mashed up really badly. Blending with the grass by Wicked, however, reminds me much of moss: Slippery, humid, fuzzy, rotten... I can almost smell it :lol:
TristamK {l Wrote}:-Still one texture on the floor and walls :D
I thought the blendmap helps for this. Another thing i would like to do is to edit the brick texture with the Gimp to create variations with runes or ornaments on them, aztec style. No clue if i find the time and inspiration to succeed with that.
TristamK {l Wrote}:-spikes still look repetitive. Try create more sets of spikes. You can change not only direction but texture too (try change voffset maybe)
I will rather go for variations in the geometry. Much tampering for little use, so i have not tried yet.
TristamK {l Wrote}:-You still can change celling in the middle of map.
It is close to your suggestion. Corners are hardly visible in the dark, though.
TristamK {l Wrote}:-In hall the ball you can change size of some spikes.
Why not.
TristamK {l Wrote}:-as an alternative source of lighting you can make lamps that weigh on the ropes or chains
Chains will need very fine grained geometry, but they could look really cool and not entirely misplaced.
TristamK {l Wrote}:-Gameplay is better then before. But map don't have enough variants in the passing
Can you elaborate more on this? Variants in terms of different impulse moves needed? Environment? Steepness of the difficulty curve?
TristamK {l Wrote}:-Corridors on map look to cubic. You can change celling on them. Try to make it more rounded or triangular
Tried rounded, octagonal, haxagonal and stepwise shapes for the edges of the ceiling before. All of that looked out of place. Maybe it is just my prejudice that ancient temple corridors must be blocky to look authentic. A good solution might be a slope on all walls, like this _/''''\_ , but it will make wall-running much harder. Think of the very first walls in purge, you can wallrun there, but you need a very precise angle for that.
TristamK {l Wrote}:-After passing map you fall from the hight and when you fall illusion of space near the ziggurat is losing
You are perfectly right, the teleport was just for fun but it should really go on the ground.
TristamK {l Wrote}:-Try set /skyglare 1
Did not see any difference. Is it supposed to result in lense flare?
TristamK {l Wrote}:-Try add clouds
Tried in the beginning, looked terrible. Are there other options than in the additional gui by SES?
TristamK {l Wrote}:-Try add fog to map
Tried that too, using the color of the skyboxes bottom. Feels more annoying than atmospheric, and causes trees to pop out of nowhere at a given distance.
TristamK {l Wrote}:-Try add wooden contractions or other details on map and to the corridors on map
Yeah, decorative stuff is definitely on my wish list. Maybe you noticed that i placed a broken ledge in the fourth corner of the sphere room. Hardly visible in the dark, but that is the sort of decorative geometry i would like to add.
TristamK {l Wrote}:-you can add rain like on map wet on walking clouds like on my map skyintricary
Yes, or like on sunset-race, that one is even using the same skybox. Would look nice, but not sure if it fits the mood.
TristamK {l Wrote}:-In the hall with the ball you can add a small flying orange sparks
-You can add particles than can be activated by the trigger
Could be nice. Or maybe an effect of raising dust in some places.
TristamK {l Wrote}:-Try Use shrubs as vines (like on my map dw_canals-normal)
Mhm, those looked a bit disturbing to me. With a different tilting angle so that the trunks do not pop out at the bottom they would look better. But of course, you are right, vegetation mapmodels or grass are options to add diversity to the interior.

Your comments are appreciated.
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Re: [map] tonatiuh

Postby TristamK » 17 Aug 2013, 19:41

bonifarz {l Wrote}:Trivial anyway


Nope. It's necessary for gameplay. It can be very unpleasant to catch torch during the execution of a stunt.

bonifarz {l Wrote}:I think in a dark room a small torch can have a very large subjective light radius. Larger torches feel a bit odd, but that is just my impression.

Hm
Lol. Picture from MC...ok. Bad example
http://forum-minecraft.ru/attachments/l ... -jpg.1207/
Try look on torches in documentary films. Or look how work usual torch in his videos Bear Grylls :D .
If speak about radius of light ents i think it must be 60-80.
http://www.google.by/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=& ... 8961,d.bGE
And look on it. Try set color of light like here. It can make light on you map better. Also you can try use more light sources with lower size of light ent and lower ambient parameter
If you want did it more realistic sure...


bonifarz {l Wrote}:try to blend them with the stone tiles

Try use texture #543 (wickedgrass01) with /vscale 1. Try blend your stone texture with this texture.

bonifarz {l Wrote}:brick texture with the Gimp to create variations with runes or ornaments on them, aztec style.

Good idea. But it can make problems with this can create problems with the availability of you map of the servers. You have your texture but most of player don't have it. So i suggest you or work with original content only or create 2 version of map. Version for servers and version with custom content for forum...

bonifarz {l Wrote}:Chains will need very fine grained geometry, but they could look really cool and not entirely misplaced.

Depend on how you want see this chains on your map. I can be created very small if need. Look on my map "Mystic"

bonifarz {l Wrote}:Can you elaborate more on this? Variants in terms of different impulse moves needed? Environment? Steepness of the difficulty curve?

Variation of passing of one part. And yes, different "terms of different impulse" can be used too

bonifarz {l Wrote}:Environment

Hm. You can change environment too. Everywhere on your map i see only coridors\spikes. After passing i can remember only this. Try add more...more memorable sites.

bonifarz {l Wrote}:Did not see any difference. Is it supposed to result in lense flare?

It must did sun on your skybox look better.

bonifarz {l Wrote}:Tried in the beginning, looked terrible. Are there other options than in the additional gui by SES?

No other option but enougt to create clouds.
Settings of clouds from Damine's map "Harmony". Must work fine with your skybox
{l Code}: {l Select All Code}
/ cloudblend 1.0
// cloudclip 0.5
// cloudcolour 0xFFFFFF
// cloudfade 1.0
// cloudglare 0
// cloudheight 0.2
// cloudlayer "skyboxes/clouds01"
// cloudlayerblend 0.2
// cloudlayercolour 0xFF6432
// cloudlayerglare 0
// cloudscale 2.0
// cloudscrollx 0.002
// cloudscrolly 0.002
// cloudsubdiv 16
Sorry for my bad English. Sometimes i use google translator.
The official group of the Cube 2 Sauerbraten and Red Eclipse in vkontakte -> https://vk.com/cube_engine_news - VK support English too ;) . Also you can find all news about Cube 2\Red Eclipse in this group too
Topic with FULL information about Time-Trial . All maps , video , tutorials here . Also here you can see all best times on maps .
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Re: [map] tonatiuh

Postby bonifarz » 17 Aug 2013, 21:30

With "trivial anyway" I meant "this will be easy to fix".
Will see how 0xE38C2D looks as light color and will have a look at the cloud vars, thanks.
I think the most important thing for me to add now is more diversity with the textures. Maybe I will find some time for that tomorrow.
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Re: [map] tonatiuh

Postby bonifarz » 19 Aug 2013, 18:54

This is still unfinished, but it is time for an update (0.6). I have spent some time with non-functional geometry... sort of voxel art :lol:
statueface2.jpeg
statueface1.jpeg

It turns out to be quite difficult to model non-blocky shapes with octrees, so now I understand how tedious it must have been to model that copter in steelrat or that eagle in harmony.
I have also tried to address quite a few of the points raised by TristamK, albeit not all of them yet. In particular, I have followed his suggestion to use wicked grass #1 insted of #3 for the vlayer, which looks quite different in the temple halls (dry/grainy) and definitely better outdoors. The spikes are still unchanged, and there are a few other things i would like to try later. Also, I have tried to fix a little shortcut discovered by Michel. For this reason I also updated the dmo. I still did not have the patience to record a flawless run, though ;)

EDIT: A small update (0.6.1) was needed, but at least it also contains a good replay file.

EDIT: I realize it makes sense to add a second demo recording for players who have difficulties finding their way through the map. This one has a much slower pace, and almost all obstacles are passed in a different way than in the 97 seconds run. If someone thinks the map is still too difficult also with the spoilers, let me know.
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zipped dmo file
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Re: [map] tonatiuh

Postby Leihens » 22 Aug 2013, 19:18

I like it, had some problems to find the way at the ball/ sun thing, but i really like the "adventurer" style.
since octo 2011 :>
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Re: [map] tonatiuh

Postby bonifarz » 22 Aug 2013, 22:21

Pushed version 0.7 to quickly fix and add a few things I would not like to miss when this one goes into TristamK's map pack. Things I would like to address later are variations in spike geometry, maybe another type of statue or two, and some dust particles. B.t.w, is there a way to make respawn checkpoints functional in gauntlet?
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Re: [map] tonatiuh

Postby bonifarz » 31 Aug 2013, 15:23

<blaze> restcoser {l Wrote}:this map needs eastereggs

Well, I tried to follow the suggestion restcoser made while playing the map with me online. These "eastereggs" are dark, narrow and ugly alternate paths, just to add a bit of fun to explore. These are not shortcuts, but they should work in both directions each. What else do we get now in version 0.8? Mostly geometry improvements for the golden masks and the edges where two walls of spikes meet. Also, Leihens reported that you can get stuck at some clipping, even though the surface looks perfectly flat. That issue should be fixed now. Thanks to everyone who enjoyed playing on this map with me.
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Re: [map] tonatiuh

Postby bonifarz » 08 Sep 2013, 13:18

This map is finished for now. For details, see the changes on version 1.0 above.
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Re: [map] tonatiuh (finished)

Postby Ulukai » 08 Sep 2013, 13:30

Its a nice time trial map. I like the unique setting as well. I had fun trying the different paths.
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Re: [map] tonatiuh (finished)

Postby bonifarz » 08 Sep 2013, 21:50

Thanks for the feedback, Ulukai. The alternate paths are just a hidden extra, but i am glad you like them. Maybe they will be useful when checkpoints work in gauntlet. For me the most important aspect is the difficulty curve here, which should ramp up a bit with each section.
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Re: [map] tonatiuh (finished)

Postby bonifarz » 17 Dec 2013, 17:00

A minor update (1.1) should fix some spike bounces and that much needed start checkpoint, so this one should work again on gynter's server.
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Re: [map] tonatiuh (finished)

Postby gynter » 18 Dec 2013, 01:58

Hmm, server didn't even have this map. Well now it has :) Nice map thou.
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Re: [map] tonatiuh (finished)

Postby radiant » 18 Dec 2013, 21:38

Is 0:36 supposed to be possible here? Because it is.
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Re: [map] tonatiuh (finished)

Postby TristamK » 18 Dec 2013, 22:37

bonifarz {l Wrote}:A minor update (1.1) should fix some spike bounces and that much needed start checkpoint, so this one should work again on gynter's server.

I think you need do another update :o
On screens you can see some old errors. I thought they were gone, but that it is not so. Just look on screens.
Attachments
screenshot.0469.jpg
screenshot.0468.jpg
screenshot.0470.jpg
Sorry for my bad English. Sometimes i use google translator.
The official group of the Cube 2 Sauerbraten and Red Eclipse in vkontakte -> https://vk.com/cube_engine_news - VK support English too ;) . Also you can find all news about Cube 2\Red Eclipse in this group too
Topic with FULL information about Time-Trial . All maps , video , tutorials here . Also here you can see all best times on maps .
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Re: [map] tonatiuh (finished)

Postby bonifarz » 19 Dec 2013, 22:41

Hey, thanks for your feedback, it is appreciated.
It was quite amazing to see radiant find ways that seemed impossible.
I tried to fix a few things (1.1b) - likely that i missed again something.
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