[Map] syndicate v1.4

[raiden]

I reuploaded the files (here only). There are no changes in content. I only renamed the files into "syndicate". Only the readme contains the version number now. - To avoid problems and circumstances.

syndicate.zip

(649.77 KiB) Downloaded 345 times

[Ulukai]

+1 vote to include it in SVN.

[ballist1c]

Hi, sorry you see I focus more on my Quake maps then this map at the moment. +1 for SVN

[raiden]

Since my wall-around-solution with particles and triggers wasn't the best, I try to find a complete new way. I tried many Ideas out already and came lastly to the decision to build a kind of glassdome around the battlefield in the middle. That means that I'll have to rebuild the complete skyline also. While working on that, RE will probably in the version state of 1.4: new textures, mines and so on. So I will left me enough time, to fit everything to 1.4 then.

(But my old idea wasn't the worst. A simple solution, to let this work also in the higher areas, e.g. with jetpack would be another trigger entity. Such one with a definable box around it instead of a sphere. So I would have only a need of 4-5 triggers instead of hundreds .)

:::edit:::
Sorry for my mistake: I wrote 1.5 instead of 1.4 at first *facepalm*, which I meant.

[Sniper-Goth]

"A simple solution, to let this work also in the higher areas, e.g. with jetpack would be another trigger entity."

This can be done by script like this: /worldalias on_trigger_1 [gravity 0]
But then you will need to set a normal gravity field too. /worldalias on_trigger_2 [gravity 50]

[raiden]

This can be done by script like this: /worldalias on_trigger_1 [gravity 0]
But then you will need to set a normal gravity field too. /worldalias on_trigger_2 [gravity 50]

Interesting, I didn't know that. I'll try that later. If this should work I will use it, otherwise I continue with the new changes (many things are done already). Thanks for the hint.

[Sniper-Goth]

This can be done by script like this: /worldalias on_trigger_1 [gravity 0]
But then you will need to set a normal gravity field too. /worldalias on_trigger_2 [gravity 50]

Interesting, I didn't know that. I'll try that later. If this should work I will use it, otherwise I continue with the new changes (many things are done already). Thanks for the hint.

Here's a test map ive done with that script as an example:
You go to the Blue Sphere, then you have no gravity, and to reset gravity to normal, go to the concrete square place on the right of the screenshot.

[TheLastProject]

"A simple solution, to let this work also in the higher areas, e.g. with jetpack would be another trigger entity."

This can be done by script like this: /worldalias on_trigger_1 [gravity 0]
But then you will need to set a normal gravity field too. /worldalias on_trigger_2 [gravity 50]

Doesn't that change it for all players, though? I could be wrong, but I would expect this to affect all players.

[Sniper-Goth]

"A simple solution, to let this work also in the higher areas, e.g. with jetpack would be another trigger entity."

This can be done by script like this: /worldalias on_trigger_1 [gravity 0]
But then you will need to set a normal gravity field too. /worldalias on_trigger_2 [gravity 50]

Doesn't that change it for all players, though? I could be wrong, but I would expect this to affect all players.

No, only for the player that has passed through it.

[qreeves]

Yeah, this won't work as of v1.4 as world vars like that are now server controlled. I'll have to look at adding a gravity entity for you.

[Sniper-Goth]

Yeah, this won't work as of v1.4 as world vars like that are now server controlled. I'll have to look at adding a gravity entity for you.

Heh, i guess a spaceship battle map type with indoors (gravity 50) and outdoors (gravity 0) fights has litteraly exploded into space lol

[quintux_v]

Heh, i guess a spaceship battle map type with indoors (gravity 50) and outdoors (gravity 0) fights has litteraly exploded into space lol

Did you ever play Greaserpirate's "Battle School" map?

[Sniper-Goth]

Heh, i guess a spaceship battle map type with indoors (gravity 50) and outdoors (gravity 0) fights has litteraly exploded into space lol

Did you ever play Greaserpirate's "Battle School" map?

Yes i did, but the transition didn't feel very smooth between the gravity changing places.
Also, i don't like to be pushed forever into the floor >.>

[raiden]

I added mines for the new version and removed all the old trigger enteties and the complete skyline. All of this, to be able to install a kind of glass cage around the map. After that I could rebuild some new buildings around the scene. It feels more like an arena now.
I don't know whether the framerates are ok on weaker pc's. For me everything runs fine.
Depending on the feedback I will reopen the ticket for the map during the next days on the RE-tracker.

syndicate 1.4.zip

(826.89 KiB) Downloaded 319 times

changelog for 1.4:

_removed the satilite-forcefield system
_removed and rebuild the skyline: new buildings around the map
_added a glassy cage to clarify the play area - it's more an arena now
_fixed some minor texture issues
_moved the satelite to another place
_added a sunnlight with forced lensflares (although they can only be seen outside of the glassdome)
_replaced 4 grenades by the new mines

[TheLastProject]

It is a nice map, though I do have a small number of complaints (do with it as you wish, my opinion is not holy):

http://i5.minus.com/iK2tS8xvTkp8g.png
At some points, the map does hurt my framerate. Such as on nice sniper spots like these, or even when just running around down there. It's not much worse than venus causes at its worst times, but it may be worth taking a look at this to find out how users with weak systems could have a bit less of a hit on their framerate. I expect this to be some issues with too little occlusion, but what do I know?

http://i7.minus.com/iEBm2VIRZINfZ.png
At this point, the sudden contrast between textures is quite sharp. This difference clearly needs to be less.

http://i1.minus.com/iPeH1vJXToLYg.png
The bases look a bit dull compared to the rest of the map, although I have absolutely no advice on how to possibly improve that, and I'm possibly just nitpicking.

http://i1.minus.com/iffjIjxfdJgiv.png
I know map designers love placing traps. However, most players like me, actually prefer the maps to not be filled with traps which add nothing to the gameplay. A trap for the sake of having a trap is a no-go for me, personally, and I really don't think this adds anything to the map. Why would a player even die there? Who would build something like that inside an arena? It just doesn't really make sense.

http://i5.minus.com/iDDHg0Xpm0NFK.png
I think these two darker pieces looks silly, but that's probably nitpicking. I have no clue if removing it would even be an improvement at all.

http://i4.minus.com/iblYtff3DFJWtQ.png
White? Huh?

http://i7.minus.com/iVsEExD0iLjk2.png
Nothing wrong with these doors per se, but it would be nice if they would have a slightly higher range. I keep bumping into them when attempting to quickly move through them.

All in all, though, this map seems like a pretty nice map. I can imagine this map to make for good gameplay, and it's nice to have a map which actually uses water again. More and more maps aren't using any water anymore, and I'm starting to miss the effect that has on the gameplay.

[raiden]

Hi TheLastProject, sorry that my reply tooks so long.
Thank you for taking a look into the map and showing another opinion. I don't want to say much about the aesthetical things, because I'll need some time to think them over and they are not the most important things. Maybe a change will come here. However, I will keep your mentions in mind then.
About the traps: I'm also not a fan of useless traps, just to have them in. My laser fences had a story. They had a function in the older versions, where I had to mark the border of the play area. Now after the big change they lost it's function indeed. But I'm not sure if I will remove them, because they are looking good and they don't really disturb. I mean they are not on the usual way the players are taking.
The doors, yeah I don't know, I made the trigger -radiuses bigger several times, but they still behave this way. This could be caused by an issue with trigger ents, which damien also mentioned in the past. I will look at this again, but don't know if it will be enough to give them a bigger range. When not, then I can't change this behavior.
The framerates, the possibly most important point. While working on the cage, I excepted framedrops, because the old syndicate came near the tolerable boarder, especially on the sniperspots. Improving this means to waive on details. Maybe we come back here to some of your points: the fences with lasers for examble could go and free some frames. I hope to become more feedback concerning this, to glean if it will be necessary.
( . . . an update will need time, but might come)

[Dratz-_C]

raiden,
Here is a stress test on my nettop. I tested with 15 bots and myself on multi coop kaboom which to be clear was 3 teams of 5 and the fourth as me by myself. As before with "Cutec," all my settings are on low, some to off. My framerate hovered at 10fps. Here is a 9fps screenshot resampled to 960x540 and saved as a 100kb .jpg for storage efficiency and users with slow connections.

syndicate_01.jpg

Compare the geometric building vista+alpha playbox approach currently in "Syndicate" to the deemphasized, baked-to-skybox approach of the surrounding structures in "Center." The same settings on center hovered at 18fps. As with the screenshot of syndicate, I captured the lowest reasonable framerate in the screenshot that I could which was 17fps.

center_01.jpg

After removing the alpha dome, clipping the non-play area, creating a pvs of the default cell size and turning off gore and explosion shrapnel I tested "Syndicate" with the same settings as before. The gameplay varied from some 26fps spikes and 20fps slopes to an average of 16fps with a tough of 13fps as in the screencapture.

syndicate_02.jpg

I tested your release of "Syndicate" with the gore and shrapnel off with some 22fps peaks, an average of 15fps and a general trough of 11fps as is shown in the next screenshot.

syndicate_03.jpg

I hope that this information helps you.
Cheers

[raiden]

Thank you Dratz-_C, some day you will become famous for your feared stress tests .
Yeah, I think this gives a good insight to me. Althogh I won't probably delete the alpha dome, I'm sure that I have still enough room for optimizations. (When I delete the dome, I have the same old problem of a missing playfield boarder, but I want to keep the city setting in the background, which was part of the whole concept, from the beginning. I tested also many different solutions by using particle effects, but none of them where really good.) Lastly there are several details in the background, which are not really necessary. I will play around with them and come up with a hopefully faster version, later then.

[Dratz-_C]

Hi raiden,
You are welcome as always. This is a tough cookie but I think you may want to look into making a skybox with blender. It is more efficient for a game to render a cube with 6 textures than it is to render the background scenery live. More detail may be put into the skybox to make it look better than realtime rendering as well. You can have your skydome, lensflare, more-detailed backdrop, higher framerate and help other people use your skybox for their maps all at once. Again, I do not think that this path is easy and I know that it is heartbreaking to consider abandoning so much work in the map editor but it seems to me the best way to produce a successful outcome. Please assess the matter and get back to me when you have time and inclination.
In case making your own skybox in impractical for you, I deleted your background, found a suitable CC3.0 skybox at Humus' website, combined it with a fogdome made to look like your barrierdome and to cover unwanted pedestrians and tested it as before. The framerate spiked at 27fps, peaked at 22fps, averaged at 17fps and troughed at 13fps as is shown in the screencapture.

syndicate_04.jpg

Here are some more screenshots of the background method. Please also note that with glare set to intense, the center team signs and the sides of some of the ductwork have an excessively high specular value.

syndicate_04b.jpg

syndicate_04c.jpg

syndicate_04d.jpg

Cheers

[raiden]

Yes, you are right and I understand you, but I still need some time, to mull over this. I'm also interested in working with real 3d material, to create my own skyboxes. But this will probably more a topic for later times. It would need too much time for me, to get familiar with blender at the moment. I worked with 3dmax in the past, but it has been a long time ago . Furthermore I don't know what I would like to have more: a skybox only around the map or real buildings ... mmh, I'm still not sure, let's see.

[qreeves]

Yes, you are right and I understand you, but I still need some time, to mull over this. I'm also interested in working with real 3d material, to create my own skyboxes. But this will probably more a topic for later times. It would need too much time for me, to get familiar with blender at the moment. I worked with 3dmax in the past, but it has been a long time ago . Furthermore I don't know what I would like to have more: a skybox only around the map or real buildings ... mmh, I'm still not sure, let's see.

I could probably write a function to create skyboxes in RE if it would help.

[Sniper-Goth]

Yes, you are right and I understand you, but I still need some time, to mull over this. I'm also interested in working with real 3d material, to create my own skyboxes. But this will probably more a topic for later times. It would need too much time for me, to get familiar with blender at the moment. I worked with 3dmax in the past, but it has been a long time ago . Furthermore I don't know what I would like to have more: a skybox only around the map or real buildings ... mmh, I'm still not sure, let's see.

I could probably write a function to create skyboxes in RE if it would help.

Depending on the map this could help a lot.
This could be an skybox camera entity that you would place somewhere in the level (more especificaly in an place outside the playable place), and it should make all 6 directions showed directly in the sky.
The command could be maybe /newent skycamera N , where 0 would be off, 1 would be like an static photo, and 2 would be real time rendering.
I believe this will take a lot of time to do though.
I remember this feature was in DoomBuilder too, some people maps there did put an static monster in the front of the sky camera, lava in the ground to simulate an animated sort of skybox.

[Dratz-_C]

I could probably write a function to create skyboxes in RE if it would help.

raiden, Quin, Sniper-Goth,
Short version: I think that it would help.
Long version:
This functionality was my first thought. I was thinking that a camera could snap some shots in six directions and it would be done. I wanted to avoid the inappropriation of signing you up for a task. However, now that you have opened the subject, I have to say that I think it would be a great help for folks wanting fresh content in their skyboxes. I think realtime rendering is an elegant extension of the static capability. On the premise that these are both added folks editing maps would have a choice between: standard static skyboxes, generated externally or once in Red Eclipse with maximum display options; or realtime as has already been done in some other games, with animation possible but graphics options depending on what the player has chosen. The static generation option would create a possibility to incorporate antialiasing in map preview image routine which might help almost everyone. The realtime sixway camera option might possibly allow users to determine the path of the camera, even more interestingly potentiating the use of demo data. Although the extent of that material is approximately all my intelligence and patience can efficiently produce, perhaps it will persevere to effectively benefit the discussion.
Cheers

[raiden]

I could probably write a function to create skyboxes in RE if it would help.

Well, this would be a great feature. I don't know if this is this is the best solution for syndicate. I have to comprehend Dratz's steps at first, to see the result in living pictures. But I'm sure that other mappers would appreciate this possibility as well as me, in general. I'm talking only about the most simple variant: building a seperate map for environments only, outgoing from a spot in the middle of the environments six seamless tilable .jgs or .png's are created, which will be the skybox for the actually map.
All the other ideas sounds also interesting, but it's your decision and you know the best, how much effort you can put in such a function and if you are willing to create it.

[Jamestonjes]

This reminded me we still have an original dungeon keeper1 played through it again last year,good times, except for the one power, Armageddon I think