[MAP] Canals v1.8

[Ulukai]

Hello guys! I finished my latest map, called Canals. It has become a large multi-leveled map. There are 4 bases which makes it suitable for multi games, but it plays just as good with only 2 teams. I configured the affinities so that there is not much to do in the green or yellow bases when not in multi mode. There are waypoints present for the bots so you can test it out offline.

Map title: Canals
Map version: v1.8
Author: Ulukai
Supported gametypes: DM, TDM, CTF, DTF, BB (+ all in multi)
License: File is included in the ZIP

Update 08/09/2012: Version 1.8 is out.
Download link: http://www.mediafire.com/?91xsxejd763o01e

[Dratz-_C]

Ulukai,
I've downloaded it and will probably test it tomorrow. Thanks for finishing it for us.
Cheers

[4rson]

I've been looking forward to seeing how this one would turn out. Downloading now.

[ballist1c]

WOW! You have really outdone yourself here, Ulukai. The immense attention to detail on a map this large is staggering.
This is easily one of the best looking and cohesively textured RE maps out there. Now only if this were to happen to some small maps...

First of all, this map is HUGE. I think this might just beat out center for the biggest map for Red Eclipse. You would easily need 12, 14, 16 people or more to play this map to the fullest, and yes, it is best played on multi-ctf. The bases are identical(I think), cohesively designed, and pleasing to the eye. And that's the best water texture I've seen in RE. The weapons are well placed too. This is gonna be a LOT of fun!

Bugs? Well, the main one I found is that I can easily get over the wall in the main area with a simple wallrun (click to see full size):


Other than that I look forward to seeing this map online and more maps like this from Ulukai! Perhaps a small, darkness-sized map with a good layout and these textures? We need better duel maps (:

-ballist1c

[4rson]

I've had a quick play on this map, and I think it fits nicely with the gameplay of red eclipse. We need more big team maps (playing center all the time gets a bit boring). There are some nice details, like the watery effect in the teleporters. The gameplay seems to work well on the upper route between the red and blue bases with plenty of cover.

The main thing that I think could be improved is the texturing on the lower level of the map. It feels a bit rushed compared to the more detailed upper level, and there are a few places where you suddenly switch between older dirty looking concrete type textures to shiny futuristic looking ones, giving a slightly inconsistent appearance. Perhaps you could also add some more detail to the water-filled tunnels on the lower level.

Anyway, I love the layout and I think that with a bit more work on the texturing it will be a great map.

[D.A.M.I.E.N.]

I like this idea, Ulukai. It could be a really good map for multi-team games, but still needs changes and fixes in my view. Just few thoughts that I had while testing it a few minutes.

I got fps drops outside, and while watching alpha or omega base from afar, it starts has an impact on fps. Maybe increase air fog, also water fog (and set proper color), this can help a little bit I suppose, and generally make geometries reasonable for performance and more balanced. Texturing you can make better for sure. It seems weird the pavement textures in the canals for instance. Also.. is needed to make accessible the top side of buildings? If I climb on it, I see, that the map is floating in the space, but it's not a space map and fps drops there even more, because you can see all these 4 bases. It could be clipped in my opinion and probably with simple environment around, also walls outside should be higher I guess. Or perhaps try to imagine it closed as a map "Dropzone" is -> a roof, where skybox is still well visible. It could solve this issue and issue with clips as well. But the idea of canals is very good, also the geometry from without of it is nice.

[Ulukai]

Thanks for the testing the map guys. I'm glad you like it and I understand your points of feedback.

Some comments from my point of view: each map that you watch from further away has FPS drops. I tweaked the map before releasing already to have a similar framerate as other big maps. Maybe the water has a slightly more stressing effect on the video card, but it should be quite allright actually. The bases get their detail mainly from texturing and not from too complex geometry to keep the framerate reasonable.

I don't mind access to the top of the bases. It stimulates parkour movement and the main gameplay won't ever be happening there so it's not a big deal if someone decides to get on there. There are enough rifles in the map to pick a sniper off too. And when someone falls of, well he probably deserved it ;-) In other big RE maps you can access the buildings too.

A roof would totally kill the look of the map and the skybox. And I use a sunlight to illuminate most of the outside areas, of which I would lose the effect completely. This would also mean more geometry --> bigger lightmap and makes the map heavier. Higher walls don't look nice either. Now they tell you where to go and you can wallrun on them, that's the main idea. Air fog and water fog could be a good idea but I have no experience with those. Can someone provide me with some commands and values that you think would fit this map?

I agree that the water filled tunnels could use some more details. I wanted them to look a bit like a maze, but maybe some more decoration could turn out nice. Any specific ideas for this?
And the numplayers should indeed be higher than 8 on second thought. I'll make it 12 for the next release. 14 is not an option, since you can't divide that by 4 ;-)

4rson, do you mean the texturing in the lower level of the bases that look more rushed? I tried to create a kind of a basement feeling for them actually but I'm prepared to try something else if others agree with you... I have experimented A LOT with different textures and don't really have the feeling that the concrete conflicts with the more futuristic textures. Otherwise the map would look the same everywhere, I find it to be a nice ballance actually... Maybe you could make it more clear with a little screenshot?

[4rson]

This is a matter of taste in the end, and it might be that other people think the current texture scheme looks fine, but these are the bits that stand out to me as looking not quite right:

The electrical wires texture here seems a bit bright against the background. Maybe encasing it in a metal frame would help. Also, you need to rotate the texture in some places.

This isn't a major one, but maybe putting a small vertical divider in the corner, or pushing one of the textures back a bit would help the transition look more natural.

In my view the blue coloured texture doesn't really fit in with the other colours in the basement.

This is the one that seems to fit least well. I can see that you want to extend it from the water tunnel, but I think the contrast is too harsh with the more modern looking textures.

In this case I think some kind of additional frame on the top surface of the ramp would help make it look more natural

Overall, using more intermediate textures as dividers between more contrasting ones would make it look better. Also, I think if you limited it to just 2 or 3 approximate colours in the basement, that would give a more consistent appearance.

I hope this is helpful, although perhaps someone else more expert in texturing could make some more detailed suggestions.

[qreeves]

And the numplayers should indeed be higher than 8 on second thought. I'll make it 12 for the next release. 14 is not an option, since you can't divide that by 4 ;-)

The game automatically compensates for that in team/multi games to make the number divisible by the number of teams (eg. you could set numplayers to "5", in team games it'd be modified to "6", and in multi, "8").

[qreeves]

Okay, I just took a quick look at this map and I must say I have to agree with the concerns some of the other people have voiced on this thread. In the midst of heated gameplay out in the the open areas, my frame rate drops from 200 to nearly 50, so I think this is basically suffering from the same problems "Ares" did; not enough occlusion.

[Ulukai]

Okay, I just took a quick look at this map and I must say I have to agree with the concerns some of the other people have voiced on this thread. In the midst of heated gameplay out in the the open areas, my frame rate drops from 200 to nearly 50, so I think this is basically suffering from the same problems "Ares" did; not enough occlusion.

Well, I can work on the texturing and details of the under water areas, but I don't have immediate ideas how to fix the occlusion issue. Could some fog and water fog be enough for this? Or will we need some kind of large structure around the middle area that blocks view to the other bases? That would change the idea of the map completely however... I knew I needed something in the middle, that's why I made some tower in the middle but apparently it's not enough. I might strip some of the details off of it if necessary.

So basically, if someone wants to help me out on this, it would be very appreciated. Both ideas, drawings and map modifications would be welcome! Damien, it sounds like you have some idea how to do this, please feel free to have an attempt at it.

Quin: could you start with clarifying if fog (or a fogdome, don't really know the difference between them) would be helpful here? And what's your opinion on the clipping?

[qreeves]

Quin: could you start with clarifying if fog (or a fogdome, don't really know the difference between them) would be helpful here? And what's your opinion on the clipping?

Fog can be somewhat helpful as it is an artificial way to occlude distant objects, but it isn't a catch-all solution. Fogdomes are to "fog" the skybox, as fog only applies to geometry on the level, which can leave the sky looking somewhat unnatural looking. I haven't taken a good look at the clipping issue yet, but that is really for you to decide. If it turns out that it is a problem later, I will probably fix it myself.

[Ulukai]

Thanks quin, that's a clear answer. I'll experiment with it and see if it makes a difference.

I did some more thinking and imo the biggest occlusion issue is between red and blue and not particularly between yellow and green since those bases are smaller and less complex. I might make a completely different building in the middle, which is higher and maybe taller to fix this. And I will change some small geometry and textures to save some triangles as well. I'll have a go later this weekend.

About the clipping: a laser beam on top of the walls may be a good solution. You can't get on top or over them anymore and it's not a problem when the jetpack mutator is activated. A lighting beam could maybe be too disturbing (will have to try), but is it possible to add red laser beams in RE (like what you see in movies in musea, to protect valuable pieces of art)?

[raiden]

Nice map, Ulukai, I like the overall layout . I have no new minds to add here and like the idea of using laserbeams to close the map. Only one thing: the particles are only shown in a defined distance. If you are too far away, you can't see them. I replaced my lasers by geometry with lighttextures because of that (the laser quadrate around the middle platform in cutec). Maybe this is not problematic on canals, you'll surely see and make it .

[Ulukai]

After a couple of more hours, v1.1 is out. I tries to take the above comments into account as much as possible, without changing the feel of the map too drastically.

Download link: http://www.mediafire.com/?7k71a72mwpucz24

- Changed numplayers from 8 to 12.
- I experimented with fog, I have lowered the viewing distance from 4000 to 2800. This gives some FPS improvements without losing too much of the view (red to blue base).
- Added some concrete blocks so that the players in the middle don't see too much water to increase FPS.

- I made the structure in the middle considerably wider and taller to raise the occlusion and save FPS.

- Revamped parts of the under water areas to vary the view.

- Changed some textures on request.

I made some other small adjustments (like removing small neon strips to save triangles, reworked the tower in the middle a bit to save triangles and some other stuff that won't be noticable with which I hope to improve the performance for those with lower-end specs (get an upgrade goddammit ). I tried the laser beams, but like raiden says, they disappear when too far away. It's strange to see them popping up, so I left them out. It doesn't bother me that you can get over the walls. It probably even takes more time than just running around them.

[Architect]

looks good

[4rson]

The small texturing changes do make a big improvement in the visual consistency. Would it be possible to add some kind of drains, pipes, or vents in the water filled tunnels. I suppose you probably don't want to make it look too industrial, but a few extra details like that might look nice, and shouldn't reduce the framerate much because they are out of view most of the time.

Anyway, it looks good as things are, and I get quite decent framerates (similar to on linear). When you think the map is fairly stable, I will add it to the custom map set on the frogteam3 server.

[Ulukai]

Thanks for the feedback. I'm glad you notice the difference and like the map. I only slept a couple of hours every night of the week to finish it in time so this makes me happy

I think it is in a stable and very playable state as it is now. If I would find more time to add pipes, I might give it a try because it is a good idea. However, it's not really necessary and I don't know if I'll still be able to do so because we're leaving for a week off in a couple of days now (feel free to add pipes yourself to v1.1 if you really want to, but make sure they really aren't visible from any of the outside area and only do so in the red and blue bases tunnels, not in the middle area with the green lights).

Anyway, if nothing groundbraking needs fixing, I consider this to be final and will post it on the content inclusion thread. Maybe Quin should decide if a clipbox around the map is necessary (to avoid glitches?)

Thanks everyone for helping me improve the map.

[Dratz-_C]

Ulukai and qreeves,
My minimum framerate was 17 a second on 1.0. In addition to the things you've done already for the framerate, I request that you economize the curves to 45-degree angles. Also why not just come out and say "get an upgrade" rather than hiding it with tiny text. People with low performance computers tend to have smaller displays and can't read that stuff. However, do know that my priority is college cost so I will not get a new computer until my nettop is out of commission to the point that it is unreparable. I think that there are a great deal of players that are in the low-performance community and that it is smart to assure that we also can play your map. I did have fun playing multi basket bomberball with 1.0. I'll take a look at 1.1, see what my minimum framerate is and report back sometime later today.
Cheers

[qreeves]

Also why not just come out and say "get an upgrade" rather than hiding it with tiny text.

Set your browser's minimum font size to something like 8 or 9pt, it's what I do.

[Ulukai]

It was meant as a joke, that's why I put is smaller and typed goddammit behind it I did like 10 years with my previous computer, so I know what it is to play on old hardware. I might try changing some curves to 45 degree angles, and maybe change the terrasses of the red and blue bases a little to save some tris when I have some time.

[4rson]

For comparison, could someone with a low-end computer compare the framerates obtained on this map, and a few of the larger official maps?

I really don't see the need to make every map run smoothly on older hardware. Certainly there needs to be enough choice for everyone, but it is also nice to be able to sometimes show that the engine is also capable of some quite attractive visuals.

[ballist1c]

I really don't see the need to make every map run smoothly on older hardware. Certainly there needs to be enough choice for everyone, but it is also nice to be able to sometimes show that the engine is also capable of some quite attractive visuals.

+1
We don't need to dumb down our maps because of some people with hardware issues; there are enough simply textured maps of all sizes, and the graphics settings as well.

Now it is time to let our mapmakers shine, and with games like Warsow and Xonotic out there, we should step it up A map like Canals really showcases what the RE engine is capable of, and that's one of the reasons why I like it so much. Now if only we had this much detail on a duel/1v1 map...

[D.A.M.I.E.N.]

I think that many people appreciate if they can run maps on low-end computers. That is a one of advantages of this game also. And trying to make more stable framerate for maps in on-line gaming is in my opinion worth. I don't think I have a low-end computer (4 cores, AMD HD6870, good timed memory), but somehow it makes my desktop low-end when I'm getting 45 fps. Usually it keeps being above 100 on others official maps. (with maxed settings) At on-line gaming.. around 70 fps you starts feel it more (I assume common lcd monitor) and on 50 it disturbs. And I get that on this map even without any other players. So with some action it will drops even more I suppose, that's why I suggested make geometries reasonable for performance and more balanced, but it is relevant to other things of course. It is possible to make it effectively => a good looking with a good performance where the framerate seems stable, just find the right way.

[ballist1c]

I think that many people appreciate if they can run maps on low-end computers. That is a one of advantages of this game also.

They can; turn down the graphics settings. And most of the maps in RE are nothing to worry about. If a computer cannot run RE on lowest settings, it is seriously time to upgrade.

I don't see how you could possibly consider 50 FPS to be disturbing - it's certainly not ideal, but it's quite good. I get 60-70 FPS, online or not, on maxed settings. Only pro gamers REALLY need the big FPS numbers (100-125 and beyond), and RE does not have those ATM, so you should be able manage perfectly well