[Map] cutec v1.6

Re: cutec 1.02 map version

Postby raiden » 15 Apr 2012, 20:22

Yupp ~(|-_-|)~
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Re: cutec 1.02 map version

Postby Julius » 15 Apr 2012, 22:13

I think RE should adpot this style for all its maps and make the playermodels even more fitting to this ;)
*that* is how much I like it!

Yes, it is very "Tron2.0" like, but I think it fits the movement options of RE quite well, and would serve as a distinct look for the entire game.

Edit: if that was the case I might even reconsider and make this model an RE exclusive: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1972&start=50#p28706 instead of an lazy Xonotic port.
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Re: cutec 1.02 map version

Postby raiden » 20 Apr 2012, 16:07

Updated my map.
I get stuck a bit and will join the IRC-channel in the next days/week to get some fresh hints especially to push the framerates. Although it's not to weird, the hiccup problem has to be solved. Furthermore there is my good old map sorn, which could also be optimized and I want to do that.

Julius {l Wrote}:I think RE should adpot this style for all its maps and make the playermodels even more fitting to this ;)
*that* is how much I like it!

Yes, it is very "Tron2.0" like, but I think it fits the movement options of RE quite well, and would serve as a distinct look for the entire game.

Edit: if that was the case I might even reconsider and make this model an RE exclusive: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1972&start=50#p28706 instead of an lazy Xonotic port.


Hey, RE could need some new models, not bad ;). Although it's right, to give RE a whole similar look, it should be possible to have different themes for the maps, to give more variety to the players. (I've seen a nice asian styled map, sadly unfinished by appleflaps and hope that this one will be finished and gets a chance for an official release.)
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Re: cutec 1.03 map version

Postby TristamK » 21 Apr 2012, 15:25

raiden , how you change a animation time of particles ?
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Re: cutec 1.03 map version

Postby raiden » 22 Apr 2012, 10:51

TristamK {l Wrote}:raiden , how you change a animation time of particles ?
P.S. I send message to your e-mail =) Can you ask ?


Hey, TristamK: I didn't changed a time variable there. What I did was trying out two different kinds of using particle effects. At first I linked the particles to a hidden trigger. The player jumped through the trigger and the particles where shown for 2 secounds or a bit longer, when he jumped from one platform to another. After that I linked the particles directly to the pushers, with the effect that the particles are shown only for a very short moment, while the jump. I was also looking for the ability to change time, but I think we have to circumvent that, because there isn't such a variable (maybe there is one, but I don't know it). I also saw you asking for that in another thread and posted there too.
Maybe my example can help you, or you could use the IRC-channel to find somebody who has more informations about that or who comes with a new way/idea to you.

greetings :)
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Re: cutec 1.03 map version

Postby rocknroll237 » 25 Apr 2012, 19:11

My fps can drop considerably when playing this map (I have an Asus Ares, but it only uses one core in this game, so it's basically a 5870). Is there anything more that can be done to optimise it? The textures and lighting are awesome. I really like this map. :)
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Re: cutec 1.03 map version

Postby raiden » 26 Apr 2012, 11:52

rocknroll237 {l Wrote}:My fps can drop considerably when playing this map (I have an Asus Ares, but it only uses one core in this game, so it's basically a 5870). Is there anything more that can be done to optimise it? The textures and lighting are awesome. I really like this map. :)


Thanks for reply. I agree with you concerning the framedrops. Sadly the texturing succeeded such well, because of building a complex geometric skeleton. I see no other way than reducing this, since I tried everything besides that to push the frames (minimal botpathing, few lightsources). I hope I'll get it without destroying the whole feeling and style of the map :|.
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Re: [Map] cutec v1.03

Postby rocknroll237 » 26 Apr 2012, 20:16

I think you should keep a version with the complex geometry for benchmarking processes (perhaps it could be included in a benchmark demo?), and make another version that's much better optimised. What do you think?
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Re: [Map] cutec v1.03

Postby wowie » 26 Apr 2012, 22:20

rocknroll237 {l Wrote}:I think you should keep a version with the complex geometry for benchmarking processes (perhaps it could be included in a benchmark demo?), and make another version that's much better optimised. What do you think?


I think that idea could be applied to all graphically intense maps.
I would sure like to see an online-playable version and a max detail version just for the fun of it.
cutec, harmony, ares, etc. Would all be fun for online play but it would also be fun to have the option to max the gfx to make pretty screenies for the front page of the RedE website.
Dig a little in your backups folder and find that maxed gfx version to save time and work. :)
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Re: [Map] cutec v1.03

Postby raiden » 27 Apr 2012, 11:24

wowie {l Wrote}:
rocknroll237 {l Wrote}:I think you should keep a version with the complex geometry for benchmarking processes (perhaps it could be included in a benchmark demo?), and make another version that's much better optimised. What do you think?


I think that idea could be applied to all graphically intense maps.
I would sure like to see an online-playable version and a max detail version just for the fun of it.
cutec, harmony, ares, etc. Would all be fun for online play but it would also be fun to have the option to max the gfx to make pretty screenies for the front page of the RedE website.
Dig a little in your backups folder and find that maxed gfx version to save time and work. :)


Yes, I had also the idea with 2 different versions, but hey maybe the optimized one will get well. I'll keep the actual 1.03 and will work on a "redux" version. The name isn't really important. I don't know how long this will last, but it will come.
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Re: [Map] cutec v1.03

Postby qreeves » 29 Apr 2012, 06:58

Okay, I've looked at the map now, and all I can really say is that there are too many triangles. There are areas where tiny cubes and small texture changes have caused dramatic spikes in triangle usage (you can see this with 'outline' turned on). In many places, these are in areas which aren't even directly visible to the player during a match (example: the inside of the spires at the bases). Inside, I get about 100-120 frames per second, outside this drops to about 20-30 - so I can only determine that the bases have far too much detail. The 'wtr' counter in the bottom right reads at 163k, which means your level has 163000 triangles. What baffles me here is that a map like 'ghost' has 145k but renders much faster from almost all possible viewpoints, all I can determine is that it is not all rendered at once. I'm not sure how to go about fixing this, but if you are done with the map I might try to make a more optimised version by removing/simplifying some of the details that aren't absolutely necessary.
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Re: [Map] cutec v1.03

Postby TristamK » 29 Apr 2012, 10:04

qreeves , you say that 'wtr' counter say how much triangles map have . Ok . What about other parameters , like "eva" , 'evt" ect. What are they show ?
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Re: [Map] cutec v1.03

Postby Ulukai » 29 Apr 2012, 14:52

cube: the number of cubes in the current selection. Only the visible (leaf)cubes are counted.
fps: frames per second
ond: number of cubes in the system. This includes parent cubes, copied cubes,and undos.
va: number of vertex arrays used to store vertecies in the map. you probablydon't need to use this.
vtr: number of triangles currently being displayed. will be a useful stat whenculling is done.
vvt: number of vertecies currently being displayed. again, useful when cullingis done.
tri: number of triangles in the entire map
wvt: number of vertecies in the entire map
evt: misc rendering effects. stuff like particles displayed, or text written on screen.

Source: http://forum.sandboxgamemaker.com/viewt ... =15&t=3314

EDIT: added to the WIKI as well: https://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/ ... Indicators
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Re: [Map] cutec v1.03

Postby fawstoar » 29 Apr 2012, 15:44

Map looks amazing as of v1.03. If optimization can be achieved, it should definitely be in the next release. (ALONG WITH PUMPSTATION. SERIOUSLY. That map is incredible.)

Regarding the "too many triangles" issue, I have no problems running it, but my PC is relatively beefy and I would be surprised if RE was getting less than 60 FPS on it.

That said, I have yet to try it on my far weaker iMac.
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Re: [Map] cutec v1.03

Postby Ulukai » 29 Apr 2012, 15:52

fawstoar {l Wrote}:Map looks amazing as of v1.03. If optimization can be achieved, it should definitely be in the next release. (ALONG WITH PUMPSTATION. SERIOUSLY. That map is incredible.)

Regarding the "too many triangles" issue, I have no problems running it, but my PC is relatively beefy and I would be surprised if RE was getting less than 60 FPS on it.

That said, I have yet to try it on my far weaker iMac.


Try looking around from the top of a base where the rifle is located, that is one of the points that kills the framerate.
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Re: [Map] cutec v1.03

Postby raiden » 01 May 2012, 10:38

qreeves {l Wrote}:... I'm not sure how to go about fixing this, but if you are done with the map I might try to make a more optimised version by removing/simplifying some of the details that aren't absolutely necessary.

Thank you for watching my map qreeves and for pointing out this triangle/render-problem. I thought as much, that this could be the case. I'll try to optimize the map by reducing the amount of triangles. If it shouldn't be enough - you can readily try to help. Probably I'll manage it by myself. :)

Ulukai {l Wrote}:cube: the number of cubes in the current selection. Only the visible (leaf)cubes are counted.
fps: frames per second
ond: number of cubes in the system. This includes parent cubes, copied cubes,and undos.
va: number of vertex arrays used to store vertecies in the map. you probablydon't need to use this.
vtr: number of triangles currently being displayed. will be a useful stat whenculling is done.
vvt: number of vertecies currently being displayed. again, useful when cullingis done.
tri: number of triangles in the entire map
wvt: number of vertecies in the entire map
evt: misc rendering effects. stuff like particles displayed, or text written on screen.

Thanks for the detailed explanation here :).

fawstar {l Wrote}:Map looks amazing as of v1.03. If optimization can be achieved, it should definitely be in the next release. (ALONG WITH PUMPSTATION. SERIOUSLY. That map is incredible.)
Regarding the "too many triangles" issue, I have no problems running it, but my PC is relatively beefy and I would be surprised if RE was getting less than 60 FPS on it.
That said, I have yet to try it on my far weaker iMac.

Hey, I do what I can and nice that there is someone, who has no problems with the performance on cutec :) "ty".
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Re: [Map] cutec v1.03

Postby rocknroll237 » 20 May 2012, 19:32

Any updates?
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cutec 1.1 latest

Postby raiden » 19 Jul 2012, 12:27

Ok, first of all please excuse my long absence in these forums. I was very busy at the last time. The fact that I started the map too ambitious and maybe overloaded it with many details brought me in a difficult situation.
I had to reduce the details of the map. This is not really a problem, but for me it was difficult, because I spend so much work and minds in these details, that I had a too subjective point of view. I couldn't delete enough details of my work, because I liked it how it was. I wanted to preserve the spirit of the first versions and feared to destroy it through the optimisation. So, like you surely can imagine, I get stuck and stopped the work to become more distance. If I would start a new mapping project, I would learn from this mistake.
Sadly I have still not enough time to work on the map. I only can give my first step of an optimised version of cutec. I could sucessfully reduce the amount of triangles here. That saved some frames per second in the game, but that still seems not to be enough. So qreeves, if your offer to help still exists, I would be very grateful, when you could do so. Otherwise I would try to find an experienced mapper to help out or would work on by myself, which would need probably a longer time. If anybody likes to help, be warned: this is work :). When you reduce geometrical details it could be the case that you have to rebuild the waypoints for bots. The main theme shouldn't be touched.
If these points don't scare you, you are invited to optimse this map, qreeves (no problem when you also don't have enough time) or anybody else. Feedback is desirable.

What I can give: the latest version of cutec, how I like it.
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Re: [Map] cutec v1.1 latest

Postby 4rson » 19 Jul 2012, 18:05

I really like this map, but it is the fine detail that makes it so attractive. I worry that removing a lot of that might spoil the feel of it. One possibility is that using so much alpha material makes it more difficult to avoid drawing areas which would be otherwise hidden. I'm not too sure how the engine works in this way, but it might be worth trying to replace some of the transparent walkways with a dark texture instead.
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Re: [Map] cutec v1.1 latest

Postby TristamK » 19 Jul 2012, 18:23

Good progress in optimization on map but Now map does not look so perfect. And yes - alpha material need much resources of PC .
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Re: [Map] cutec v1.1 latest

Postby Ulukai » 19 Jul 2012, 20:43

I won't lose too many of the details either, there are other maps that are a bit heavier on resources. I think it's fine to keep in mind that there are players around with low-end PCs, but we shouldn't make ONLY maps that fit netbooks hardware. Nothing wrong with a beautiful map, it's worth the few frames less imo. Of course, optimisation and finding the right level of details is key, all I'm saying is that we shouldn't overdo it.
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Re: [Map] cutec v1.1 latest

Postby Iridium » 19 Jul 2012, 21:24

Ulukai {l Wrote}:I won't lose too many of the details either, there are other maps that are a bit heavier on resources. I think it's fine to keep in mind that there are players around with low-end PCs, but we shouldn't make ONLY maps that fit netbooks hardware. Nothing wrong with a beautiful map, it's worth the few frames less imo. Of course, optimisation and finding the right level of details is key, all I'm saying is that we shouldn't overdo it.


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Re: [Map] cutec v1.1 latest

Postby Dratz-_C » 20 Jul 2012, 04:42

raiden,
While I think this is a step in the right direction it may not be enough. The new version takes a long time to load and averages 14 but runs as low as 8fps on my nettop including occaissional 1 to 2-second freezes when I play with 7 bots. Also when I fall under the center area to get the rocket and/or the bomber ball I die. I have to be careful not to freefall directly underneath it. Is this intentional and, if so, why?
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Re: [Map] cutec v1.1 latest

Postby raiden » 23 Jul 2012, 10:40

Hey Dratz, the death under the platform as you described isn't intentional. The orange square should mark roughly the teleport area. Probably the radiuses of the hidden teleports could be rearranged or the deathzones or both. That shouldn't be a problem to fix it.
The performance is a much bigger topic, which I have to think over again. Of course the alpha material, costs many frames. I had an old version at the beginning without that and this one was much smoother in running (one reason is that I need 2 layers of tiny cubes to get the alpha effect which means a doubled count of cubes and geometric details - the usual player doesn't realizes that).
Mmmh... I need some time to reflect some things.
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Re: [Map] cutec v1.1 latest

Postby 4rson » 23 Jul 2012, 18:37

The double layer shouldn't make much difference as they can be represented with a small number of triangles, it is fine detail that slows things down. However, I assume that the engine would not have to draw details which are hidden behind solid cubes, but would have to draw those which are visible through alpha. I think the trick is to make bits solid (non-alpha) if you can see a lot of fine details through them.

Someone who knows the engine better may feel free to correct me on this.
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