Poll, Content Rating & Menu Option Suggestion

How much do you pay attention to blood and violence in RE 1.4?

I notice it seldom.
2
20%
I notice it sometimes.
5
50%
I notice it often.
2
20%
I notice it very intensively.
1
10%
 
Total votes : 10

Poll, Content Rating & Menu Option Suggestion

Postby D.A.M.I.E.N. » 25 Mar 2013, 16:51

Hello there,

Due to an obvious amount of bloodiness and violence contained in this game, I come with reflection and suggestion. Particularly I mean rating by organization like PEGI (Pan European Game Information) http://www.pegi.info, or ESRB (Entertainment Software Rating Board) https://www.esrb.org. In my opinion, though Red Eclipse is free and open-source game, it cointans an excessive amount of blood and gore and should be somehow rated due to it.

For instance, if we take a look at website of Quake Live, the famous FPS shooter game, you can notice a sign below on the page:

Image

That game got a rating “TEEN“, which means, that content is generally suitable for ages 13 and up. It may contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling and/or infrequent use of strong language.

I am not an instructed expert to determine rating and I know that this topic has been discussed by experts and opinions differ. Althought, in my opinion (based on logical understanding of development of children's human mind – for which I have got some schooling, and beside it, it is based also on reading articles and opinions of scientists), it makes sense that kids should play games with regard to their age, as this is similar about other things also, not any related to video gaming industry, which is why I assume, that in Europe works for instance PEGI and I am glad that it exists.

Shortly said, it should mean: “When the kid is ready for this or that“. It is individual, but proper timing could have a positive influence on personality development. In other case, it can even negatively influence natural development and that is proven.

Example: Could a 5 year old child enjoy watching a psychological movie like the “Inception“?

With some exceptions probably yes, but some cartoon movie will be appreciated much more. But why? There is several reasons: Cartoons are usually fun to watch and children never don't want to be bored, because they desire to learn new things and discover. Also they tend to be more imaginative/fantastical than adults about certain things and right the fantastical cartoons enable them to partially satisfy their desires. That's why right at the first look will cartoon movie be more enticing than realisticaly portrayed (though with sci-fi elements) “Inception“.

Now back to the video gaming industry, that is subordinated by age restrictions also, but certainly less than movies, which is wrong in my view. In case of Red Eclipse, after several years of development, there is still no option to let users in the menu reduce or disable blood and gore effects. But what more, with release of version 1.4, comes also flying heads after headshot, which can't be disabled, unless you know how to use a command line and proper command, that is nowhere explained.

About the rating, I suppose, that ESRB could be the organization for giving the rating, since PEGI is meant for Europe. If someone knows more information about it, please just post it here.

My personal opinion: The Red Eclipse is a game cointaining violence and excessive amount of blood and gore effects. At first look the game seems non-realistic (especially because of its colourfulness and rather futuristic look), but characters (when hit or fragged) show enormous amount of realistic looking blood and can be shown certain type of violence (kicking) and realism (separating head from body when projectile hits head; ragdoll physics) and it is unclear, if these fighting characters are meant to be some droids or humans in a futuristic suit), also because computer-controlled players wear typically human names.

Note: Playerbase seems very various, so the game might be played by kids, but by adults as well. Responsibility of parents is to be informed which games their children play (especially in early age), but unfortunately, there are cases when some parents don't care, don't mind and/or aren't just well informed.

Suggestion:

1) It should be more obvious if the fighting characters are humans or not, otherwise it is very confusing.
2) Menu should contain an option to reduce and disable blood and gore effects.
3) To determine age limitation, rating by proper organization would be suitable. (Using a sign also in the main screen in game would be even more helpful for players and parents)
(EDIT: It can costs even thousands of dollars...)

Few commands to change blood and gore effects:

/debrisscale 0 (turns off debris effect after explosions)
/bloodscale 0 (turns off blood)
/bloodsize N [where N= 50 (default), note: too low values leads to crash]
/gibscale 0 (turns off gore effect)
/headlessmodels 0 (disables headless player model)

It is quite sad that for this issue were not payed enough attention in development when v1.4 in other aspects brings many improvements and changes.
Last edited by D.A.M.I.E.N. on 26 Mar 2013, 12:02, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: Poll, Content Rating & Menu Option Suggestion

Postby Ulukai » 25 Mar 2013, 17:22

I don't know how to interprete this poll. I see the blood and gore and like it. The game wouldn't be the same without it. So I'm tempted to choose the last option, but don't know whether that's good or bad :p

My opinion is that you can always turn it off if you want to. Maybe a few menu options would be nice for those players, but as you see with some digging around you can get the options yourself. Although there is no blood, you will still be shooting, kicking and cutting, so does that make a big difference? I don't know... As a parent, you should watch your children and talk to them, that's better than hiding stuff away imo.
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Re: Poll, Content Rating & Menu Option Suggestion

Postby D.A.M.I.E.N. » 25 Mar 2013, 18:05

Ulukai {l Wrote}:As a parent, you should watch your children and talk to them, that's better than hiding stuff away imo.
Of course, as parent, you must explain and talk to your children, but sadly, there are cases when parents don't do that. You should take that into account. As I explained (and now I will repeat myself) the rating says basically "When a child is ready for this and that", besides that, it cointains useful information about content, which works as a guideline for parents to make some opinion. Preferably, as parent you should first test a game yourself and then engage your child to explain things.
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Re: Poll, Content Rating & Menu Option Suggestion

Postby Sniper-Goth » 25 Mar 2013, 18:51

For me, the bloodier the better haha.
But kids shouldn't be playing fps games at all i think.
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Re: Poll, Content Rating & Menu Option Suggestion

Postby raiden » 25 Mar 2013, 19:06

I agree with Ulukai, that mature people should play the game with gore features, if they like. It's a part of the game and censorship can't really change the content, but may disturb the feeling of the game. But lastly Damien is also right. Although there is the fact that especially young male kids simulate already "wargames" when they hunt each other and are just playing around (not on the pc, but with action figures and plastic guns), it would be great to have the menue option, to set violence off.
It's a huge responsibility for the parents to take a look at their kids and give them the ability to discern between reality and fiction though.
Maybe you should change the question Damien, into a more concrete one " Do you want to have it in the options?" for examble. Or what you think is important else.

(I think my land has the hardest restrictions worldwide concerning violence in games. We had a Half Life without blood and robots instead of humans :). Other games never came out in germany ( although everybody has it in reality). That has really a negative effect to the atmosphere of such games. The Quintessence is that nobody likes that and everybody is looking for a "bloodpatch" or an Austrian version of the game - which means full violence effects, but everything is in german. It can be a complicate topic :D)
Enough contrasts of pro's and con's for today :).
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Re: Poll, Content Rating & Menu Option Suggestion

Postby TheLastProject » 25 Mar 2013, 21:20

PEGI and ESRB are both completely terrible. In at least one of both systems, you send in some papers after rating the game yourself. This allows you to get completely unfair ratings. If we really want to use a rating system, we should at least not waste money on systems so terribly broken. Something like OpenArena uses/used (I forgot the name) would be better because it is free. Even then, these systems are unnecessarily vague. What is "suggestive themes", for example? I need a better indication to know if I will want to avoid something or not, and due to this vagueness, I end up avoiding games which may be just fine completely, as I worry they may not be.

Here are some things which make me consider this a bad idea:

1. People will needlessly think bad about the game before trying it.
I know this from experience. "Suggestive themes" is something which makes me avoid games altogether. It's very vague, and I know I have a low tolerance for this kind of content, but at times these "suggestive themes" are so well-hidden or mild I will never run into them or have any problems with them. In that case, I could've played the game without any trouble, but have already avoided the game. In fact, I end up fearing a game more due to the label than due to the actual content in a fair amount of cases.

2. Rating systems like the ESRB and PEGI don't state the real problems.
Violence is not so much an issue, being hunted down by other players is. The Koreans(?) have a rating system which rates regarding to psychological effects. For example, it will tell you that other players can hunt you down. This is vastly superior. For me, for example, violence is generally not an issue. Violence against animals creeps me out, and hunting down someone with a group makes me feel terrible. With an useless "violence" label, I still have no clue about how bad or safe the game is for me.

3. Rating system don't stop children.
They're useless in protecting children, as they don't stop them. Downloading games like this is terribly easy to do, and parents either need to really watch their children, or catch them way late anyway. A small disclaimer on the website isn't going to help against this. Adding a big "enter your age" thing isn't going to help against this. The only way for a parent to protect their child is to, well, protect their child.

What I do agree to, however, is giving people menu options. Because why the hell not. If they want less gore, it should be easier for them to select this.

I want to say one last thing about this topic, though:
Why now? Why do we always have these discussions right AFTER a release? Before release time something can still be done, now nothing can be done until 1.5, which will probably be in about half a year. We have SVN, there is enough time for feedback, yet everyone seems to wait just a week after it is to late. This is not personally to you, D.A.M.I.E.N., but just a trend I have noticed and which worries me a bit.
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Re: Poll, Content Rating & Menu Option Suggestion

Postby Ulukai » 25 Mar 2013, 22:10

raiden {l Wrote}:(I think my land has the hardest restrictions worldwide concerning violence in games. We had a Half Life without blood and robots instead of humans :). Other games never came out in germany ( although everybody has it in reality). That has really a negative effect to the atmosphere of such games. The Quintessence is that nobody likes that and everybody is looking for a "bloodpatch" or an Austrian version of the game - which means full violence effects, but everything is in german. It can be a complicate topic :D)
Enough contrasts of pro's and con's for today :).

Wasn't Carmageddon with green blood for Germany as well? :)

Apparently we all sort of agree. Rating is rather useless, because it doesn't stop anyone indeed. But having the option by hand would be nice.
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Re: Poll, Content Rating & Menu Option Suggestion

Postby D.A.M.I.E.N. » 25 Mar 2013, 22:25

Thanks TLP for bringing some more light into the rating. If there is an organization that some other freeware games used, it would be suitable to look for more information about this certainly, I agree.

And why now? Well, I don't know if you remember, but I suggested to put an option to scale/disable blood and gore already BEFORE 1.3 was released. It was discussed, but ended up by decision of developer not adding this. If it was also because of the needed menu revamp I'm not sure, but a command /kidmode was added. (Which is now removed in 1.4 and I quess it was a good decision, because it is just a command and as a command it will not be that known to use and either the mode wasn't well set up in my opinion) But I supposed, that menu option could be added in this version, because Zeroknight was making a menu improvement that was before release included and on the same ticket (you can find it) was also mention about option to decrease blood and gore. But to this wasn't payed enough attention as I noticed then. So even when it is not anything that can be changed in 1.4 now, (hopefully) at least it can be discussed more thoroughly for 1.5 (rating, age limits, character clarificating, options in menu). And as for now.. seems that opinions differ quite a lot, thought that option in menu is rather agreed. Anyway, the last decision about it, is up to developers. I just try to explain this issue more (so it can be understand and discussed better) and made suggestions that could be helpful.
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Re: Poll, Content Rating & Menu Option Suggestion

Postby riidom » 25 Mar 2013, 23:43

It is not a bad idea to have such label on the homepage, that quickly indicates what to expect from the game. After reading all the posts, and scrolling up again, watching again at the example label, I totally agree, that these organisations maybe have the right idea, but dont do it good at all. "Online Interactions Not Rated By The ESRB" ?? How very useful. This game happens 90% online.
Why not making an own label? It *can* be believable - if we rate fair and dont let it sound overall positive and harmless. The "might get hunted by other players" is a direction of rating that seems indeed useful - maybe we can think of a few short terms that express what happens in RE?
I could come up with a quick draft at least maybe, but this needs good suggestions, so I will write something, when I have a good idea, not before.

Grouping the 4 or 5 commands damien mentioned into a single menu point called "Blood&Gore effects" sounds also just right - maybe we can even have it off as default, but place it obvious enough that everyone finds it who takes a look at the options. Then we could put "gore effects off by default" in our label...
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Re: Poll, Content Rating & Menu Option Suggestion

Postby Dratz-_C » 25 Mar 2013, 23:49

Hi Damien and other folks,
I have schizoaffective bipolar type. I am 32. I am mentally disabled and receive a disability check each month to get by on. I have no children but there are children of the Supervisors In Charge in the Family Care Home where I live. I was using /kidmode for three reasons until I sighed when it was removed in the SVN. The first reason was that my framerate was better with it on. The second was that these children see what I play (and sometimes the people who pick me up for my church). The third was that I felt that the blood was disturbing my behavior pattern in a small way. I tried to play for a while with all the blood and dismemberment in effect and while I liked it at first, eventually I wanted to turn it off. I want to thank you for listing the commands to change the gore effects. I will try to use them in my 3 installs. As for a rating, I see what openarena did on moddb with the--
"WARNING: OpenArena contains Mature Content. I'm serious. If you don't like shooting the bloody guts and beating hearts out of voluptuous barely modest combatants then don't play it, or play without the mature pk3 file and use com_blood 0/cg_showGibs 0 (but be aware that pure servers may not agree with this)."
--message. If something has to be used I would favor a message rather than a rating, although I have a bias toward messages/ratings being good.

As far as accepting and deploying work on an option in the menu like a slider between |no gore -------------- default gore ------------- exaggerated gore|, I think it would qualify as something that would increase the effectiveness of Red Eclipse. I do not feel that is mandatory and am willing to invest the time to keep current with the command structure instead. In sum, I will be following with interest any development in this area.
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Re: Poll, Content Rating & Menu Option Suggestion

Postby raiden » 26 Mar 2013, 00:29

Ulukai {l Wrote}:Wasn't Carmageddon with green blood for Germany as well? :)...


Just for curiosity: I never played this game, but I know it. And yes I think you are right, there was something with green blood.
The Unreal series was also censored strictly here. Even the hydraulic fluid of the robots was removed in german versions - so far I remember. Which didn't stopped the people to find out the config entries, which set everything on again (set 0 to 1, which was easy to find) in these games. I think Epic games did know the noun. So they could sell a censored Unreal tournament officially, while most people did already know, from the first part of the series on, which config file + entry has to be changed, to get the full contend with unlocked gore effects. (In all parts it was nearly the same procedure to change these effects.) - yeah good old german goodness politics :). I can't really say if this is the right way or not, but too little children shouldn't play such things or watch splatter movies imo.
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Re: Poll, Content Rating & Menu Option Suggestion

Postby quintux_v » 26 Mar 2013, 03:32

Doesn't Warsow claim to be "kid-friendly" and all that?

Also, I'm pretty sure there was a kiddie mod on Quadropolis that replaced everything with confetti. We could look into that.
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Re: Poll, Content Rating & Menu Option Suggestion

Postby qreeves » 26 Mar 2013, 04:57

{l Code}: {l Select All Code}
bloodscale 0
gibscale 0

As for content ratings, feel free to provide the several thousands of dollars required to undertake such a task. Australian law doesn't require me to rate a product not being sold in Australian stores.
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Re: Poll, Content Rating & Menu Option Suggestion

Postby Ulukai » 26 Mar 2013, 09:55

qreeves {l Wrote}:
{l Code}: {l Select All Code}
bloodscale 0
gibscale 0

As for content ratings, feel free to provide the several thousands of dollars required to undertake such a task. Australian law doesn't require me to rate a product not being sold in Australian stores.

I can think of a few ways to spend the thousands of dollars better than on this rating...
Those who want, can use the commands to turn everything off, or they can find help on the forum and ond IRC. I still think an option would be nice, even 1 checkbox would suffice, but turning it off by default wouldn't be a good idea imo. That is exactly the opposite of other games, why would we want that? Our playerbase is finally expanding, that means that ppl like RE how it is, right?
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Re: Poll, Content Rating & Menu Option Suggestion

Postby D.A.M.I.E.N. » 26 Mar 2013, 11:37

Well, that is true, indeed, it can costs even thousands of dollars, though according to one article, ESRB reduced fee of $800 for games that have development costs under $250,000. But that is still crazy for free and open source game, who knows maybe there are some discounts. http://www.joystiq.com/2009/10/09/psp-minis-developer-surprised-by-cost-of-esrb-ratings/ I understand then why not let the game be rated for these costs, when it is not even required. But what I don't understand is, why it should be bad to add at least 3-step slider option in the menu to adjust blood and gore? About the message instead of rating, I think it is not bad idea, but it has some cons.: It will not be expertly rated, and to avoid issues, it should contain this sentence: "Red Eclipse cointans a Mature Content." I suppose. And the second thing, it is just a message, not a sign, so it is less notable.
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Re: Poll, Content Rating & Menu Option Suggestion

Postby qreeves » 26 Mar 2013, 12:59

Sounds reasonable, make a ticket on the bug tracker.
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