POLL: Campaign Mode, or Survival Mode? (or Mashup?)

Which do you prefer?

Campaign!
15
36%
Survival!
25
60%
Mashup! (explain)
2
5%
 
Total votes : 42

POLL: Campaign Mode, or Survival Mode? (or Mashup?)

Postby ZeroKnight » 30 Jan 2012, 22:52

Red Eclipse's campaign has been in discussion for a long while now. The problem is coming up with a way to implement it with the Cube engine's current features (on top of Red Eclipse exclusive features), and create a viable, consistent story that somehow ties in at least a little bit with multiplayer conventions.

I know many of you have ideas on this, so feel free to share any and all of them! Please also be sure to vote in the poll, and always back up your claims and ideas! Give reasons for your ideas, and try to think of them in terms of how "doable" they are ;) (that's not to say that some things are impossible...as long as someone's willing to work on it, anything is possible!)
Please back up your vote in the poll with a reasonable answer. You will not be taken seriously if you do not state why you chose what you did. There is no wrong choice, it's all your opinion.

To provide a baseline for the discussion, I ran a quick forum search and pulled up all relevant topics/posts that discuss the likes of a Campaign that I could find, assembled below. I'm positive there are many more references to this topic, so if you know of any more that aren't covered here, please bring them to light! I will include them in the respective sections!


Campaign:


Survival Mode:

It has recently been suggested by TheLastProject in Glennz's thread linked above. For convenience, this is the post.

To summarize, his idea is to propose a survival type mode, as apposed to a campaign type mode. To add myself, I believe that it would not only be far easier and tons less work than to implement than a campaign mode, but also that it would retain re-playability much more than campaign would. See my post for a few more details.

Deep inside the Release Feedback thread; actually lies a post by Imerion which is somewhat of a similar idea to survival. For convenience and clarity's sake, I will quote it here:

Imerion {l Wrote}:Another cool idea which would be fun to have in the meantime while waiting for the Campaign would be a Challenge-mode. Where one or more players try to work together to complete a list of challenges. It wouldn't need to be more than a bunch of presets with different levels and settings/mutators. So one could be "Defeat a bunch of bots on level X" and another could be "Win a Capture the Flag match with Instagib on level Y", etc. Every time a challenge is completed a new one is unlocked. (Or all are unlocked from the start, but completing them adds a small star or something next to them in the menu.) This is something I would really enjoy to play, especially if I could play it together with others. (So all human players always start in the same team.)

(See full post here)

Key points recapped here:

TheLastProject {l Wrote}:The problem, albeit this being interesting, is a huge lack of replayability for a huge amount of work. Simply put: adding a random map to DM is a lot less work and allows for a lot more replayability.


ZeroKnight {l Wrote}:The way the AI works in Red Eclipse could bring forth new enemy types with extremely little work. For example, you could have a "colossal" type enemy by creating another AI type in the source code, and altering his height. And that's not a lot of code. You can change the weapons they start with, their health, speed, whether or not they can jump, etc.
And we can always add more actor types that go beyond just grunt, bot and turret. We could end up with full on tanks (Kitsune and Wazubaba are actually playing around with that idea), or flying enemies.



Mash-up (combined) Ideas:

In light of these two suggestions, there are also a few ideas that transcend both realms, and give a little bit of a mash up idea. At the time of writing, I can only think of this one following post, but if you find more, please let me know in this thread, and I'll add them here :)

  • Post by arand in Glennz's thread, suggesting the possibility of both campaign, and survival mode.

The trick here is; as long as someone is willing to work on something, anything could be added to Red Eclipse! (hence why Red Eclipse's motto is: "Anything is possible" ;D)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Remember, if you have ideas, post them here! Support your claims and thoughts, and remember to vote in the poll!
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Re: [POLL] Campagin Mode, or Survival Mode? (or Mashup?)

Postby TheLastProject » 30 Jan 2012, 23:18

I have chosen for a survival mode, as I've explained before. I surely understand the interesting part of a campaign mode, but I believe it adds little replayability. I still remember S4 League's "Arcade Mode", which is a similar idea as the campaign mode being discussed. It was fun the first time through, a few hours of gameplay, but there was no fun in the second time as you knew exactly what would happen. I honestly believe a survival mode would have more replayability, though I must admit I'm seriously digging Imerion's idea as well. Tracking how many of those "achievement" have been done would be quite cool, even cooler if it could save it online on an accountname and you would have a leaderboard, but that would be a lot of work.
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Re: [POLL] Campaign Mode, or Survival Mode? (or Mashup?)

Postby fawstoar » 31 Jan 2012, 00:44

Story-driven survival. Basically a series of deathmatches (not infinite waves, but several waves each with increased difficulty) with some sort of cutscene/story element between them (maybe screenshotted stills or artwork done by some talented forum dweller?). They would be preceded by an optional tutorial for new players.

Not too difficult to create, but retains a story element to the game, which will add something I feel that RE desperately needs: a setting.

Also I liked Glennz's premise. We should use that as a starting point for everything - art, story, map design, etc.
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Re: [POLL] Campaign Mode, or Survival Mode? (or Mashup?)

Postby inpersona64 » 31 Jan 2012, 00:52

I'm voting for an awesome Survival mode, but if there was one, or even a group of people who wanted to put down the required amount of work to create a "Story Mode" for Red Eclipse, I'm completely NOT against it. Hell, i'd play it. But from what you guys are saying, it takes alot of work for something that might not be played as much as it should. The survival mode sort of reminds me of Halo Reach's Firefight mode or Battlefield's Onslaught DLC and it's safe to say it just works. I don't really play campaign mode in too many games but I would play it.

Can cut scenes be done? If they can that would be cool to see too.
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Re: [POLL] Campaign Mode, or Survival Mode? (or Mashup?)

Postby Glennz » 31 Jan 2012, 08:03

fawstoar {l Wrote}:Also I liked Glennz's premise. We should use that as a starting point for everything - art, story, map design, etc.


Oh wow, im honored, thanks. :D

----

I would prefer a campaign with a linear story and linear missions.
A survival mode can be made with three clicks in the multiplayer mode. :|
Also, my script has three times of really running and jumping and one time of hordes, so everyone should be happy. ;)

The good:
-More offline fun
-A co-op campaign was talked about in my topic, can you see yourself playing campaign with your three mates? :cool:
-Player gets hooked because of a story
-More depth in the RE atmosphere, a lot of stuff found in the RE multiplayer can be explained in the campaign (and the other way around, as a map description for example Deadsimple: "This Jocezi base has been abandoned since the nuking of their home world"
-Might be a good (and fun, impressing) practice for newbies, before they dive in the multiplayer world
-Not many FOSS-games have a campaign, having one might make RE stand out in the crowd

The bad:
-A lot of work
-People will not play the same story 3 times
-When you release a campaign you cant change the missions too much, campaign must be done right the first time
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Re: [POLL] Campaign Mode, or Survival Mode? (or Mashup?)

Postby inpersona64 » 31 Jan 2012, 15:43

Glennz {l Wrote}:-Not many FOSS-games have a campaign, having one might make RE stand out in the crowd

+1
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Re: [POLL] Campaign Mode, or Survival Mode? (or Mashup?)

Postby ZeroKnight » 31 Jan 2012, 23:08

I'm glad this thread is seeing activity :)

Glennz {l Wrote}:-Not many FOSS-games have a campaign, having one might make RE stand out in the crowd

It very well could, but you have to remember, it's a FOSS-game. There isn't as much manpower as a commercial development team, and a campaign is, as already redundantly stated, a huge undertaking.

Like sona said, I'm in no way against a campaign; I'm all for it if a group of dedicated people want to work on it. Hell, not just campaign, but even this survivor mode. There's nothing set in stone saying that if one of these choices is preferred over the other, the devs will work on it. I mean, I'm sure they would, but the beauty of a FOSS-game is that we don't have to leave it up to the devs. Anyone can make anything happen if they put the work into it.

Hell, if I had more talent with C++ (which I'm currently working on obtaining), I'd be programming a campaign mode and a survival mode right now. Sorry for the mini-rant, I just wanted to make this point clear. Just don't get your hopes up, and ideally, try it yourself!

Also, if this thread is deemed important enough, I request a sticky.
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Re: [POLL] Campaign Mode, or Survival Mode? (or Mashup?)

Postby qreeves » 01 Feb 2012, 19:24

ZeroKnight {l Wrote}:Also, if this thread is deemed important enough, I request a sticky.

Done.
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Re: POLL: Campaign Mode, or Survival Mode? (or Mashup?)

Postby ZeroKnight » 02 Feb 2012, 06:09

I see a lot of votes, and not a lot of posts. This displeases me.

Thank you, quin.
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Re: POLL: Campaign Mode, or Survival Mode? (or Mashup?)

Postby Glennz » 02 Feb 2012, 10:34

I changed my vote to mash-up.
I first didn´t properly read Arand´s idea, lol. :P

Something like firefight/nazi-zombies and a campaign would rock. :)
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Re: POLL: Campaign Mode, or Survival Mode? (or Mashup?)

Postby TheLastProject » 02 Feb 2012, 14:51

Glennz {l Wrote}:I changed my vote to mash-up.
I first didn´t properly read Arand´s idea, lol. :P

Something like firefight/nazi-zombies and a campaign would rock. :)

Nazi-zombies are really offensive to, for example, Germans. I wouldn't be able to get my owner to ever return to RE if that would happen =/
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Re: POLL: Campaign Mode, or Survival Mode? (or Mashup?)

Postby Glennz » 02 Feb 2012, 15:34

TheLastProject {l Wrote}:
Glennz {l Wrote}:I changed my vote to mash-up.
I first didn´t properly read Arand´s idea, lol. :P

Something like firefight/nazi-zombies and a campaign would rock. :)

Nazi-zombies are really offensive to, for example, Germans. I wouldn't be able to get my owner to ever return to RE if that would happen =/


Lol Ruben lol. :)

It was just an example something like Firefight and Nazi-zombies, in both of them everyone is on the same team and spawns in one base which holds weapons. ;)
I would like that but then with the Red Eclipse grunt. :)
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Re: POLL: Campaign Mode, or Survival Mode? (or Mashup?)

Postby Catalanoic » 02 Feb 2012, 22:12

i think that there are a film based in nazis-zombies, haha!
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Re: POLL: Campaign Mode, or Survival Mode? (or Mashup?)

Postby ZeroKnight » 07 Feb 2012, 20:12

Catalanoic {l Wrote}:i think that there are a film based in nazis-zombies, haha!


Stay on topic, please.
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Re: POLL: Campaign Mode, or Survival Mode? (or Mashup?)

Postby Vaecrius » 08 Feb 2012, 11:29

Please please please for the love of Stallman no cutscenes!

I would never play more than one sitting of campaign mode, it would lose my attention far too quickly if it's not utterly beautiful and emotionally engaging - and due to the mere nature of what the protagonist is in a game about gaining points for shooting and killing people that just won't happen.

Story is best for visual novels and point-click adventures... or side lore on the game wiki that is only vaguely alluded to in, and completely unnecessary to know for, actual gameplay.

That said: if the focus of "campaign" wasn't really "story" but "big target-rich environments with particular objectives designed for co-op play" I can totally get behind that.
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Re: POLL: Campaign Mode, or Survival Mode? (or Mashup?)

Postby qreeves » 09 Feb 2012, 04:59

Vaecrius {l Wrote}:Please please please for the love of Stallman no cutscenes!

I would never play more than one sitting of campaign mode, it would lose my attention far too quickly if it's not utterly beautiful and emotionally engaging - and due to the mere nature of what the protagonist is in a game about gaining points for shooting and killing people that just won't happen.

Story is best for visual novels and point-click adventures... or side lore on the game wiki that is only vaguely alluded to in, and completely unnecessary to know for, actual gameplay.

That said: if the focus of "campaign" wasn't really "story" but "big target-rich environments with particular objectives designed for co-op play" I can totally get behind that.

+1
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Re: POLL: Campaign Mode, or Survival Mode? (or Mashup?)

Postby riidom » 09 Feb 2012, 10:53

I got that post in mind while following the campaign discussion:
http://freegamer.blogspot.com/2011/04/z ... -game.html

Now I am deleting my 4th attempt to write down, how this could be translated to RE.. seems to not be easy, but maybe someone else gets a good idea here.
I just leave the link for now.
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Re: POLL: Campaign Mode, or Survival Mode? (or Mashup?)

Postby furi » 09 Feb 2012, 16:55

I, personally, would prefer a Survival mode over Campaign, for this reason:

Campaign
Development effort
|::::::::::|
Replayability / Overall play quantity
|::::::::::|
Game reputation change
Really bad |:::::|:::::| Really good

Survival
Development effort
|::::::::::|
Replayability / Overall play quantity
|::::::::::|
Game reputation change
Really bad |::::|:::::| Really good

The reason why I would rate the concept of a Campaign mode in a game like this so badly is because - well, it's a game like this. I don't think it's very practical to try and captivate a player in a game where you're constantly impulsing and running and jumping off walls and shooting and generally avoiding death and aaaaaaaaaaagh it just won't work. The atmosphere simply isn't set for something like this. It sounds cool, sure, but in the long run, it just isn't worth it. I'd go for Survival.

For Survival, I'd suggest something like:
  • Halo Reach Firefight
    • defend yourself
    • waves of enemies
    • good weapon drops outside of the safezone
    • vehicles, maybe?
  • Monday Night Combat Blitz
    • defend an objective
    • waves of enemies
    • different classes compliment different playstyles
    • turrets, maybe?
  • Killing Floor Multiplayer
    • defend yourself
    • waves of enemies
    • weak players, which promotes teamplay
    • random weapon/armor/ammo drops around the map
    • shop appears between waves with a time limit, which forces the players away from their "base" temporarily if they want to get better weapons (which is pretty much a necessity)
    • earn money for killing
    • doors, maybe?
    • if the above, let them be weldable for this gamemode
  • Minecraft Survival
    • defend yourself
    • randomly spawning enemies depending on the light level
    • health does not automatically regenerate
    • restore health with health items
    • build in real time
    • an inventory, maybe?
  • even a mashup of different concepts from each.
My ideas are usually moot, so I wouldn't be surprised to get a lot of "no" for this.
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Re: POLL: Campaign Mode, or Survival Mode? (or Mashup?)

Postby TheLastProject » 09 Feb 2012, 17:31

I agree with furi here, but I would prefer the first two modes. Fireflight and MNC Blitz-style. Game-exclusive mutators could even make both possible, though I honestly think that vehicles or turrets are somewhat overkill and don't fit RE's style that well.

P.S.: furi, based on your postcount, I would guess you're new. Welcome to the Red Eclipse community.
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Re: POLL: Campaign Mode, or Survival Mode? (or Mashup?)

Postby arand » 09 Feb 2012, 17:44

Taking the always-relevant example of Mirrors Edge, I don't think making a "true storymode campaign" with the gameplay elements of RE is as impossible as you make it sound, though I agree that it would likely be extremely hard to make it really good in comparison to other alternatives.

I'm definitely leaning towards a "campaign" with minimal storytellying/cutscenes, simply due to the effort vs outcome.n

Though, since no one has sat down to make either of them, I feel it would be a disservice to discourage either, if anyone wants to pick up that torch.

In addition to the survival suggestions:
  • Arenas with varying modes and increasing difficulty (as per every over FPS ever :) e.g. UT, Q3...)
  • A more sequencial style, like Portal, say. where different modes are introduced as things progress:
    10 bots guard a door - DM; TImed lockdown alarm - Trial; blow up blocked door with constant boot spawns - BB; Floor collapsed - Trial; retreive a key - CTF; etc.
    ^ This is a definite step up the effort ladder compared to pure arenas/survival, but maybe the effort could at least be reduced to mapping, rather than the whole modeling, cutscening, dialogue-writing/acting shebang of a story-campaign
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Re: POLL: Campaign Mode, or Survival Mode? (or Mashup?)

Postby furi » 09 Feb 2012, 20:37

TheLastProject {l Wrote}:furi, based on your postcount, I would guess you're new. Welcome to the Red Eclipse community.

Thanks, and hi! :)

TheLastProject {l Wrote}:I honestly think that vehicles or turrets are somewhat overkill and don't fit RE's style that well.

I can agree about the vehicles (I mentioned them only as a suggestion that I wasn't really going to back up), but I think turrets would be interesting in a scenario when you're fighting off hundreds or thousands of baddies.

arand {l Wrote}:Taking the always-relevant example of Mirrors Edge, I don't think making a "true storymode campaign" with the gameplay elements of RE is as impossible as you make it sound, though I agree that it would likely be extremely hard to make it really good in comparison to other alternatives.

I don't mean to outright bash the idea with what I said, but I certainly don't support such an idea. It seems impractical for an open-source game, and would probably end up being a waste of time. For every person who plays the campaign - well, that's just it. People who would play Survival would at least play it more than once, since it actually has replay value.

arand {l Wrote}:I'm definitely leaning towards a "campaign" with minimal storytellying/cutscenes, simply due to the effort vs outcome.n Though, since no one has sat down to make either of them, I feel it would be a disservice to discourage either, if anyone wants to pick up that torch.

I have no reason to disagree.
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Re: POLL: Campaign Mode, or Survival Mode? (or Mashup?)

Postby inpersona64 » 10 Feb 2012, 01:24

I think it was mentioned a while ago (and through a couple of posts) that vehicles don't and will never fit Red Eclipse. But turrets aren't a problem, seeing as they don't hinder any aspects of the game (such as parkour and agility).

I'd like to see cutscenes if a campaign mode were developed. Yes, cutscenes are pretty boring, but I want to see how much this engine is capable of and I'm sure anyone who plays campaign would like that too. Now obviously, overdoing the cutscenes would be an absolutely absurd waste of time and perhaps even degrade the final outcome of the possible campaign, but maybe 3 or 4 cutscenes wouldn't hurt.

I'm still down for just Survival Mode though, only because it's alot easier to do.
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Re: POLL: Campaign Mode, or Survival Mode? (or Mashup?)

Postby Vaecrius » 10 Feb 2012, 07:40

Agreed with anyone saying that vehicles won't work... kinda kills half the point of playing RE instead of anything else.

Exception: the vehicle can fly and shoot rockets and drop grunts. On a gigantic map.

As for seeing what the engine is capable of... why not put that effort into more detailed maps?
(btw, how would that hinder stuff like wallrunning? Are there any guidelines on making invisible flat boundaries so you don't get stuck on the geometry?)

EDIT: My idea for how to do a campaign mode:
1. Add a mutator to the list which is incompatible with Onslaught or Duel.
2. Spawn all the players around one random spawn.
3. Spawn an objective or two at the furthest spawn(s) from the players.
4. Spawn armies of grunts in between.
5. You only gain points for capturing objectives or killing grunts, and lose points by dying or hitting other players.
6. Slowly develop and tweak from there.

EDIT: So while waiting for something to download I finally got around to playing the campaign alpha. That's pretty much what I imagined, but with a specifically designed map rather than capable of being run anywhere (and a bit longer!).

How does spawning work right now? After a couple checkpoints I never saw the bots again (I assumed they were back at the start) and I encountered very little opposition except for a few guys and turrets who appeared to have been pre-placed by the mapper.
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Re: POLL: Campaign Mode, or Survival Mode? (or Mashup?)

Postby unixfreak » 13 Feb 2012, 11:00

If campaign or survival mode were to be implemented, here's some visual ideas that could work with the idea of cutscenes to improve the atmosphere:

#1 camera entity
Maybe to show a route you need to take through the map, or a simple fly-by before the level begins. You could drop waypoints for it similar to the ones used by bots; example of use http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is5YgYIluaU

#2 scriptable scenes
Using "checkpoints" with an id to suspend the gameplay and trigger a scene elsewhere, such as releasing the camera from the player and sending it along a set waypoint. For example, showing a door being opened on another part of the map. The camera could travel down a corridor and zoom towards the door, to show which one has been opened for example.

I'm not sure how hard that would be to add, though i can imagine something of the likes would work well in both modes; campaign or survival. The benefit of using something like this in a survival type game is that you get to plan out your attack as you can see which direction the npc's are coming from which add's a bit more strategy. Especially if the "attack" comes in the form of waves while increasing the difficulty of each one.

Personally, i would lean more to survival mode for the replayability.
Just thinking out loud. :)
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Re: POLL: Campaign Mode, or Survival Mode? (or Mashup?)

Postby Vaecrius » 13 Feb 2012, 22:23

I hasten to add: the better way to do that particular situation in #2 is to have the players pass by a visibly locked door, then the switch later on, and if necessary either a graphical hint near the switch as to what it activates or a simple text announcement saying that a door has opened. No need for cutscenes.
(Or even do it like in the first map of Knee Deep In ZDoom: a security camera watching over the door and a monitor by the switch. Or in many other Doom maps, design things so you have a window with a view of the door in the room with the switch.)

I like the flyover idea though, although the campaign alpha's description does suggest that trying to navigate the map at all should be considered (a currently respectably difficult!) part of the challenge.
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