Weapon Balance: Rifle Problem + Solution

[ballist1c]

I think the latest svn had the taperin at 100 both pri and sec, but i think is being calculated differently than in previous versions so Im not sure there is an accurate analogue.
primary damage is 35, explode1 is 24 as of today

recommended taperin value is 672 (if by the same standards).

Yes, 35 is WAY too low - the shotgun is a weapon with splash AND bleed, and it deals more damage. Think about it, a precision weapon like this should reward you for your accuracy with a more potent shot.

I tried 75 damage - that sounds like a LOT more, and it is, but we are reducing splash by a LOT as well. Plus, you will not land a hit all the time, and it still takes 2-3 shots to kill someone.

I therefore recommend to quin 75 damage with new settings - tried and tested in SVN. Go ahead and see for yourself ^^

[qreeves]

r4666 ...

Fixed.

I therefore recommend to quin 75 damage with new settings - tried and tested in SVN. Go ahead and see for yourself ^^

Okay, so I have been playing with weapon variables for the last couple of weeks now since this topic was first started, and I perhaps need to explain why I haven't just gone directly with the suggestions raised here.

• The current setting for the rifle damage in 1.3 is 35, just like it is in SVN. The whole point of this thread is that the rifle is overpowered, raising the damage will not help this at all.
• During my extensive tests with the distance based tapering, I found the rifle was almost unusable in smaller levels (eg. "Bath", "Dutility")
• The purpose of reducing the splash damage is to avoid easy "whiplash" damage (which is where a shot lands and causes an explosion which encompasses the head, but is too far to be counted as a headshot), which is what most people are taking advantage of at the moment. It could possibly need further reduction due to the way explosions work (which brings me to my next point).
• Explosions in RE don't just hit you once and stop there. Collisions are counted against EVERY hitbox the explosion encompasses (for both the wave push and the damage passes). This means if explosions can hit you three times in one go for each pass (best possible damage with rifle in one shot (not accounting for linear distance interpolation from explosion center): 35*1 + 35*0.6 + 35*0.3 = 67 (damage is rounded UP to the nearest integer).

I will continue to experiment and implement the settings I feel most comfortable with as I go, but please do realise that what you consider as being "tested" literally makes me laugh (no offense, I just know RE so much better with regard to this infinite-loop of weapon balancing). I learned a long time ago that you can't base your opinions solely off a couple of offline bot matches, because it is never reflective of it in actual use (bots don't behave quite like the rest of us in-game).

[Blindman]

I think some of the players here arent actually using the svn version when they make those comments.
Whatever you did fixed the build thanks Quin.

[Blindman]

I gotta say, the newest svn is looking pretty good, I really like the sec fire on the smg, adds a new dimension to an old weapon. Rifle balance looks good as well.

[ballist1c]

I'm sorry for being inconsiderate

[Blindman]

The current setting for the rifle damage in 1.3 is 35, just like it is in SVN. The whole point of this thread is that the rifle is overpowered, raising the damage will not help this at all.
During my extensive tests with the distance based tapering, I found the rifle was almost unusable in smaller levels (eg. "Bath", "Dutility")
The purpose of reducing the splash damage is to avoid easy "whiplash" damage (which is where a shot lands and causes an explosion which encompasses the head, but is too far to be counted as a headshot), which is what most people are taking advantage of at the moment. It could possibly need further reduction due to the way explosions work (which brings me to my next point).
Explosions in RE don't just hit you once and stop there. Collisions are counted against EVERY hitbox the explosion encompasses (for both the wave push and the damage passes). This means if explosions can hit you three times in one go for each pass (best possible damage with rifle in one shot (not accounting for linear distance interpolation from explosion center): 35*1 + 35*0.6 + 35*0.3 = 67 (damage is rounded UP to the nearest integer).

very well explained, I had no idea how it was actually calculated.

Im guessing that the default mineadd wont be four by the time it gets released lol, in fact some admins might elect not to use them at all.

[lamefun]

What about removing splash completely and making rifle shoot pinpoint accurate, infinitely fast rays? I don't like having damage increase with distance, it's pretty obscure. For splash damage role, what if we modify plasma to shoot big slow plasma-balls that explode, like rocket launcher in Quake, no one uses plasma primary now anyway?

[Blindman]

I dunno, I see secondary plasma used a lot in ctf and dtf maps where you just surround the flag wihth plasma

[arand]

The reason no one uses plasma now is probably that the primary damage is really low, this has been changed in SVN.


I was playing around with the new tapered rifle, in particular in close range, and I think in some ways the tapering feels a bit too extreme at close range, and leads to some odd situations:
If you're within about 10 cubes of the target, primary fire wont do any damage, at a distance slightly above this the damage suddenly increases from 0 to ~35.
For the secondary this "dead zone" is much smaller (~2 cubes maybe) and the damage ramps up more smoothly with distance.

I can somewhat agree with lamefun here that the strongly tapered behaviour is a bit odd and confusing, I'm not sure there's a good alternative though (given tapering is what we want), unless maybe tapering for damage and hitpush was made separate (since hitpush needs to scale, but if damage scales likewise, these things happen?)...

Here's a short video (with bad quality) of some haphazard testing of the new tapered rifle, at close range: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGnelBh10K8

[greaserpirate]

I can somewhat agree with lamefun here that the strongly tapered behaviour is a bit odd and confusing, I'm not sure there's a good alternative though (given tapering is what we want), unless maybe tapering for damage and hitpush was made separate (since hitpush needs to scale, but if damage scales likewise, these things happen?)...

I agree- splash damage should scale, but damage should be left alone. It makes things confusing if you don't know how many hits you're going to need to frag someone. Besides, the rifle secondary was absolutely fine.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Blindman]

All I can say is hmm, isnt this a laser we're really talking about, if we're going to vary the splash with distance, which way would we vary it?

[D.A.M.I.E.N.]

I can somewhat agree with lamefun here that the strongly tapered behaviour is a bit odd and confusing, I'm not sure there's a good alternative though (given tapering is what we want), unless maybe tapering for damage and hitpush was made separate (since hitpush needs to scale, but if damage scales likewise, these things happen?)...

I agree- splash damage should scale, but damage should be left alone. It makes things confusing if you don't know how many hits you're going to need to frag someone. Besides, the rifle secondary was absolutely fine.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

New setting is very confusing. Secondary fire was ok, true. Now it is inaccurate, but I suppose it is temporary. I know it is going through experimenting to improve it, but this is rather messed up setting than balanced at this moment.

[quintux_v]

is there any estimate on when this will be ready to be implemented? I was just playing and I got one-hit KO'ed by a single close-up shot with the rifle which wasn't even a headshot, and that was from full health (e.g. just respawned), and it seems particularly like members of the Blaze clan (no offense, but between Melvin and the jack King guy I was just playing against...) are using it a lot. It also makes arena matches near impossible to play when most players use the rifle.

[ballist1c]

is there any estimate on when this will be ready to be implemented? I was just playing and I got one-hit KO'ed by a single close-up shot with the rifle which wasn't even a headshot, and that was from full health (e.g. just respawned), and it seems particularly like members of the Blaze clan (no offense, but between Melvin and the jack King guy I was just playing against...) are using it a lot. It also makes arena matches near impossible to play when most players use the rifle.

Yea these one- or two- hit KO's are a big issue, especially in arena; big thanks to quin for the detailed explanation on how splash damage works in RE.

By the way, MelvinSour = Jack King (that is his real first name)

And yes, arena still is my favorite mode; except when certain people join the game i am practically forced to choose instagib or medieval

(To Melvin/Jack's credit, he is also very good with the sword; too bad he brags about it sometimes in chat)

[Blindman]

Melvin and the jack King guy

one and the same.

[quintux_v]

Yea these one- or two- hit KO's are a big issue, especially in arena; big thanks to quin for the detailed explanation on how splash damage works in RE.

By the way, MelvinSour = Jack King (that is his real first name)

And yes, arena still is my favorite mode; except when certain people join the game i am practically forced to choose instagib or medieval

(To Melvin/Jack's credit, he is also very good with the sword; too bad he brags about it sometimes in chat)

Thanks for the info, I hadn't known Melvin changed his name. I'd have guessed it was so he wouldn't be affiliated with the exploitation of the current rifle settings, but using it under a different name kind of defeats the point. I haven't seen him with the sword yet, but I have to agree that it's not too hard to use the sword once you figure out the length of the sword strokes.

Again, can anybody give any estimate on the date of the final implementation? I realize Quin is likely still testing, but any final tweaks could be hammered out in the next major release of RE (assuming new rifle settings are added to a minor update of 1.3).

[qreeves]

There are such things as sore winners who deserve the same treatment as any other troll/ass in my opinion. I don't when the release will be yet, I need enough to warrant a new release.

[greaserpirate]

This isn't about the rifle necessarily, but since it's about weapon balance I thought I should put it here instead of making a whole new thread for it...

The spread on the smg in SVN is ridiculously high. Currently /smgspread set to 8 (for comparison, currently in vanilla RE the spread is 3 and the shotgun's spread is 4). This makes it virtually impossible to land hits at all but point-blank range, where you get torn to pieces by the shotgun and sword, even when your crosshairs are right on your opponent. I know that the values are being played around with now and nothing is set in stone for the release, but I beg you, please don't take away the smg's accuracy. The smg as it is now is one of the most well-balanced weapons in the game.

[qreeves]

This isn't about the rifle necessarily, but since it's about weapon balance I thought I should put it here instead of making a whole new thread for it...

The spread on the smg in SVN is ridiculously high. Currently /smgspread set to 8 (for comparison, currently in vanilla RE the spread is 3 and the shotgun's spread is 4). This makes it virtually impossible to land hits at all but point-blank range, where you get torn to pieces by the shotgun and sword, even when your crosshairs are right on your opponent. I know that the values are being played around with now and nothing is set in stone for the release, but I beg you, please don't take away the smg's accuracy. The smg as it is now is one of the most well-balanced weapons in the game.

People snipe with the smg across the length of ubik. The current accuracy is tuned for the re-enabled accuracy skewing: you need to land on the ground and/or stop moving for a better aim.

[greaserpirate]

People snipe with the smg across the length of ubik. The current accuracy is tuned for the re-enabled accuracy skewing: you need to land on the ground and/or stop moving for a better aim.

I see your point, but the settings are a bit extreme. Also, if the problem is people sniping with the smg, I don't really see the point in decreasing the accuracy while moving.

In any case, sorry if I my post sounded overly negative. Besides the smg, the weapons in SVN are working amazingly well, especially the mines, rifle, and plasma. I'm confident the developers know what they're doing, it's just hard not to be protective of the delicately arranged weapon system we've grown to use and love.

[quintux_v]

I don't when the release will be yet, I need enough to warrant a new release.

Alright. I'll try to stay away from arena matches, then.

People snipe with the smg across the length of ubik. The current accuracy is tuned for the re-enabled accuracy skewing: you need to land on the ground and/or stop moving for a better aim.

I see your point, but the settings are a bit extreme. Also, if the problem is people sniping with the smg, I don't really see the point in decreasing the accuracy while moving.

In any case, sorry if I my post sounded overly negative. Besides the smg, the weapons in SVN are working amazingly well, especially the mines, rifle, and plasma. I'm confident the developers know what they're doing, it's just hard not to be protective of the delicately arranged weapon system we've grown to use and love.

I've always found the smg to be a little over-accurate, to the point where I've caught bots (and been caught) by the shots in such a way that you can't really get away from it until you die.

[greaserpirate]

By the way: after a bit of testing, I think I might have found one of the sources of the problem. /stillspread is currently set to 0, making anyone who stands still with an smg extremely accurate. With /stillspread 1 or close to 1, people can no longer snipe across the map- even with /smgspread set to 3, it still takes more than 1 clip on average to frag a stationary bot across the center of Echo on SVN- but the smg is still useful for normal, medium-range run-and-gun use.

[Ulukai]

Weapons in SVN feel good indeed. Am I mistaking or is the plasma distance nerfed too now? I like the new fall-off particles a lot though!
Is the always maxed rifle zoom meant to stay or is this temporary? I feel that the default zoom level is way too high. Having to zoom out every time you use the scope is quite frustrating.

[Blindman]

I have to agree, the smg spread is a bit high, after playing serveral bot matches (I know this isnt an entirely fair represntation), using just smg and shotgun, I felt as though I might as well be using the pistol. Perhaps a middle ground? I did notice that this latest svn had the taperin on the rifle back at 0 with the explode at 16, it seemed very playable.
I have converted my server on port 28804 to an unmodified svn.

[Blindman]

I've always found the smg to be a little over-accurate, to the point where I've caught bots (and been caught) by the shots in such a way that you can't really get away from it until you die.

How much of that is hitpush? I know waht you describe, I think the smg by nature is a rapid fire weapon and has the potential to pin you down in that fashion.