IDEA: Greed Mode

[qreeves]

So, eihrul has asked me if I would like to implement a mode he considered interesting (original Cube Forum thread). RE has always been a good testbed for ideas that go into Sauerbraten, so I thought I'd share what he has said to me and see if anyone has any points/suggestions they would like to make.

18:02.25 <eihrul> so, was pondering a game mode for sauer
18:02.33 <eihrul> wondering if you might not like to implement it for red eclipse too, or first :P
18:03.23 <eihrul> it was something drekow proposed
18:03.36 <eihrul> i think he said it was some UT mode called greed
18:03.48 <eihrul> but though i changed some small details about it from what he described
18:03.55 <eihrul> essentially this, there are two bases, where the CTF flags normally are
18:04.14 <eihrul> when you kill an enemy, they drop a skull
18:04.28 <eihrul> you pick up the skull, up to some limit you can hold, probably 10
18:04.45 <eihrul> then you must touch the enemy base to score
18:04.56 <eihrul> for each skull you have when you touch the enemy base, you get a point
18:05.06 <eihrul> after like maybe 50, or possibly 100 points, your team wins
18:05.17 <eihrul> now if you teamkill, obviously no skull drops
18:05.32 <eihrul> way drekow described it, after you scored, you respawned
18:05.36 <eihrul> but after talking it out with hero
18:05.51 <eihrul> we decided its better if you can keep on playing as normal even after scoring, so you can do funny things like spawnraping the other team for points :P
18:06.04 <eihrul> and also to add an escape element
18:06.28 <eihrul> though the spawnrape element is funniner in sauer because of no spawn protection
18:18.26 <eihrul> it was one of the few game mode idea i've heard recently that seemed simple and reasonable enough to actually get played

[inpersona64]

So, eihrul has asked me if I would like to implement a mode he considered interesting (original Cube Forum thread). RE has always been a good testbed for ideas that go into Sauerbraten, so I thought I'd share what he has said to me and see if anyone has any points/suggestions they would like to make.

18:02.25 <eihrul> so, was pondering a game mode for sauer
18:02.33 <eihrul> wondering if you might not like to implement it for red eclipse too, or first :P
18:03.23 <eihrul> it was something drekow proposed
18:03.36 <eihrul> i think he said it was some UT mode called greed
18:03.48 <eihrul> but though i changed some small details about it from what he described
18:03.55 <eihrul> essentially this, there are two bases, where the CTF flags normally are
18:04.14 <eihrul> when you kill an enemy, they drop a skull
18:04.28 <eihrul> you pick up the skull, up to some limit you can hold, probably 10
18:04.45 <eihrul> then you must touch the enemy base to score
18:04.56 <eihrul> for each skull you have when you touch the enemy base, you get a point
18:05.06 <eihrul> after like maybe 50, or possibly 100 points, your team wins
18:05.17 <eihrul> now if you teamkill, obviously no skull drops
18:05.32 <eihrul> way drekow described it, after you scored, you respawned
18:05.36 <eihrul> but after talking it out with hero
18:05.51 <eihrul> we decided its better if you can keep on playing as normal even after scoring, so you can do funny things like spawnraping the other team for points :P
18:06.04 <eihrul> and also to add an escape element
18:06.28 <eihrul> though the spawnrape element is funniner in sauer because of no spawn protection
18:18.26 <eihrul> it was one of the few game mode idea i've heard recently that seemed simple and reasonable enough to actually get played

Would "Greed" be a gametype or a mutator? It does sound reason and simple enough. Worth a try most definitely. Probably will end living longer than Competitive BomberBall, which didn't get the kind of publicity I wanted :P

[Ulukai]

This would be a fun addition imo! Would like to try it out.

[riidom]

Sounds interesting, yea.
Some thoughts:

When the original is called "greed", I suggest a different name for RE.. first that came up in my mind is "sacrifice". Thats what it is about, greedy frag whores we are in any gametype or not

Some detail questions:
Is it possible to drop your skulls, pick up skulls from a team member? What happens when you get killed while carrying skulls? Are they dropped, or lost, or dropped until an enemy touches them and then lost (like returning a flag in ctf)?

Spontaneous idea that is maybe not good, just wanna note it down: What about having just one spot where to deliver skulls to? Unless all like the name Sacrifice, it would fit a bit better to it, plus, it would be possible to play it in FFA as well then. Any kind of kinky spawn-games should be possible that way as well, I guess. And it would be a big party spot in the match I guess... A team could aggregate all skulls on player, then all empty ones attack to clean the spot, and then the skull carrier comes in and delivers skulls. Maybe it needs a bit time? Like 2 seconds per skull or so.

[TheLastProject]

I like the idea in general, though I am doubting if it should be a separate gamemode, or maybe a mutator of some sort. But at very least, this idea is worth discussing. Would end up as a kind of bomber ball, but with collecting skulls by killing and then running to the other base to score? Not completely sure how it would end up, though I suspect closer to a separate mode than a mutator.

What switching the skulls for small moons? I mean, it's Red Eclipse after all.

Is it possible to drop your skulls, pick up skulls from a team member? What happens when you get killed while carrying skulls? Are they dropped, or lost, or dropped until an enemy touches them and then lost (like returning a flag in ctf)?

I would think that you should be able to pick up skulls from a dead teammate, unless you have killed the teammate. Perhaps making someone lose all their skulls when killed by a teammate? So, lost instantly if you kill a teammate, otherwise more CTF-like, X seconds to grab them or they go away.

Spontaneous idea that is maybe not good, just wanna note it down: What about having just one spot where to deliver skulls to? Unless all like the name Sacrifice, it would fit a bit better to it, plus, it would be possible to play it in FFA as well then. Any kind of kinky spawn-games should be possible that way as well, I guess. And it would be a big party spot in the match I guess... A team could aggregate all skulls on player, then all empty ones attack to clean the spot, and then the skull carrier comes in and delivers skulls. Maybe it needs a bit time? Like 2 seconds per skull or so.

I think having one point is a great idea. Perhaps one point for FFA and two points for teams? Should be something to think about more.
Two seconds per skull to deliver doesn't sound so good. I would say perhaps 2 seconds to deliver ALL skulls? Would make it more interesting to collect bigger amounts of skulls before going to the point to score.

[Ulukai]

Tbh I like the name Greed better than Sacrifice. Sacrifice makes me think about killing yourself to score instead of killing others. But if Greed would be stolen from another game, I understand the quest for another name. Other possible gametype names are Conquer / Conquest?

If you make this a new gametype, there can be mutators to behave the respawn rules / place to drop skulls / timeout / drop behaviour etc.

[TheLastProject]

Tbh I like the name Greed better than Sacrifice. Sacrifice makes me think about killing yourself to score instead of killing others. But if Greed would be stolen from another game, I understand the quest for another name. Other possible gametype names are Conquer / Conquest?

If you make this a new gametype, there can be mutators to behave the respawn rules / place to drop skulls / timeout / drop behaviour etc.

I agree that Greed does sound better than Sacrifice for this purpose. We could also just keep the name Greed. It would be easy to understand for those that played the original game and could be seen as an "ode to Unreal Tournament", even though I honestly think Unreal Tournament sucked, but that aside.

Turning this into a gamemode with perhaps a few mode-specific mutators would be best. At any rate I don't believe this could be set as a mutator. Greed Deathmatch? Where to score? Greed Capture The Flag? Huh? Nope, a gamemode is definitely the way to go here.

[ZeroKnight]

first that came up in my mind is "sacrifice"

Tbh I like the name Greed better than Sacrifice. Sacrifice makes me think about killing yourself to score instead of killing others. :)

Agreed.

Other possible gametype names are Conquer / Conquest?

Myself personally, and I'm sure many others think of "Conquest" as a game of capturing territories and holding them, which we already have ala DTF

Hmm. Skull pickups...personally, I think you should drop skulls every time you die no matter who kills you, teammate included. Why? It adds a punishment factor to the gamemode (Yes, I support it as a gamemode, not a mutator); it IS called "Greed" after all. You're punished for teamkilling in the other modes with a score deduction, so if you teamkill in Greed, your victimized teammate will drop his skulls, yet you will not be able to pick them up, nor any of your teammates. Free pickings for the enemy.
In your Greed-filled mindset, you shoot wildly, hoping to slaughter the most, to snatch the most skulls, your greed unquenchable, you accomplish your goal...but find those you killed were your teammates, and you get nothing. Nothing but your own un-sated Greed, and a team that hates you. /dramatic lulz

As far as disappearance goes I'm on the fence whether or not I'd like to see them stay indefinitely until picked up, or to disappear after a set time limit, teamkill punishment or not. If this were the case, an interesting event of "redemption" could occur with yourself or your team defending the tainted skulls until they disappear, racking in enemy skulls as they storm in, while keeping them from your own.

For scoring, I do like the idea of gathering skulls into a single point, because it would then be playable in FFA, and Team. It would be even more interesting in Team because it would add yet another element, and that would be the Greed-filled war between both teams constantly trying to get to that one point to score their earnings. This could provide the victor team with an exponentially greater amount of skulls to score with if they happen to be the victors.
However, that brings another point. When you drop skulls, should you drop all of them? Half of them? Just one? The amount of skulls dropped is a very crucial component, because different gameplay techniques could hinge on the amount dropped. Between what I described above, to just going on a one-man rampage and killing as many people as possible.
Personally, I think dropping all of them would be a much greater challenge, as the risk/reward factor would be huge. You may get a lot of skulls to score with, but one wrong move and you can lose them all, with only your greedy self to blame. This would also provoke the very important decision to either go for a huge amount at once, or score with little bits at a time.
Indeed, the number dropped is crucial, and I for one am in favor of dropping all of them.

[Goku]

I like greed in UT, it would be a great addition. If it gets implemented you could use the skulls to create a "kill confirmed" gametype. When you kill an enemy a skull drops and you have to collect it to get the kill. Your teamates skulls will be a different color and if you collect it you deny the kill for the other team. I think either one would be a great addition. We need more team objective based gametypes that allow players to work together with minimal communication.

One idea I had for greed - the more skulls you carry the slower you move but your health and size go up with each skull acquired. This will make players with large amounts of skulls easily visible and keep the large amount of skulls in play longer because of the slow speed.

I like the idea of the capture zone being in the center of the map. It might focus the action so players are more likely to be stopped before they score so the skulls can stay in play longer.

Here are some possible gametype names i have been brainstorming
Head Count
Collection
Skull Drop
Capture The Skulls
Skull Hunter
Kill Collection

ill add more to the list if i think of anything else.

[inpersona64]

While naming it, remember to cross off the word "Head Hunter" cause Bungie's gonna have quin's head for that ROFL (pun very much intended).

Reading through all these posts I agree with most of everything here. I guess Greed would be a good name and easy to understand, but it doesn't hurt to brainstorm better names either. Something cool hopefully.! And I think what riidom suggest earlier about making them "cresent moons" instead of skulls I'm torn between. I mean, skulls make sense, but the crescent moon thing fits in better with the idea of Red Eclipse, although people won't understand why dead people are carrying miniture moons in their pockets but whatever. It's a fictional game lol.

I actually like ZeroKnight's dramatic story there, but he makes a great point that I'd like to +1. If you die, you should drop your skulls no matter who kills you. This will instill team work much more and force teams to LEARN TO F***ING AIM GODDAMNIT!

And thanks for clearing that up about making it a gametype. Makes sense too so you can add the Insta factor with it or perhaps Vampire.

It doesn't matter to me where the "skulls" are dropped, so as long as it's balanced for each map. And would be nice to see it in FFA too. I'm kind of imagining playing it in my head as I type what it'd be like on a map like Keystone (cause it's like my favorite map, next to Echo OBVIOUSLY).

[Ulukai]

I don't know about dropping the skulls when you're team-killing. Doesn't it seem strange to reward a team-kill? I'd say punish the teamkiller by reducing his own skull count. Maybe after a couple of team kills in a short time limit, a small timeout would be in place.

Another remark I'm thinking of: most of you prefer 1 spot to deliver the skulls, where obviously most of the action would be. On the other hand, you're talking about tactics and teamplay. If everyone circles around the same spot, there is little room for tactics in all this chaos It might be fun to have some maps with 1 spot, but it doesn't have to be like this for all maps. I agree that it should just be playable and amusing.

Don't overthink the gametype too much either, it should be simple and fun, maybe with a mutator or 2 in place to customize it to your taste or mood.

[Goku]

Easy fix would be to just make a gametype mutator for the capture area amount. maybe 1 flag and 2 flag. A mutator for a single zone that changes every minute may be cool as well.

[ZeroKnight]

I don't know about dropping the skulls when you're team-killing. Doesn't it seem strange to reward a team-kill

I believe you misread. It would not be a reward for yourself. Your entire time cannot pick up skulls dropped by a team kill. Only the enemy could, before (or if) they disappear. That's the punishment. The "reward" I mentioned for the teamkilled team would be the skulls raked in by a successful defense of those tainted skulls.

Another remark I'm thinking of: most of you prefer 1 spot to deliver the skulls, where obviously most of the action would be. On the other hand, you're talking about tactics and teamplay. If everyone circles around the same spot, there is little room for tactics in all this chaos :p It might be fun to have some maps with 1 spot, but it doesn't have to be like this for all maps. I agree that it should just be playable and amusing.

That's a good point. I'll reply back in an hour, as I have to go. Sorry

[inpersona64]

Another remark I'm thinking of: most of you prefer 1 spot to deliver the skulls, where obviously most of the action would be. On the other hand, you're talking about tactics and teamplay. If everyone circles around the same spot, there is little room for tactics in all this chaos It might be fun to have some maps with 1 spot, but it doesn't have to be like this for all maps. I agree that it should just be playable and amusing.

Is it possible to make one waypoint on the map that changes position possibly every 60 seconds so that people aren't always going to the same spot for 10 minutes or more? Like for example when the game starts, on a map like Tribal, the skull-waypoint is in the center of the map. after say 60 seconds, it could disappear and reappear somewhere else on the map, like the crosswalk above the center of the map.

[ZeroKnight]

Hmm. I like that idea. The time could probably tweaked, but good nonetheless. Though if you think about it, the whole thing really would require a tactical effort. You would need to work with your teammates to eliminate the enemy presence just long enough to capture, or be quick to do so yourself. This could allow for a group-effort steamroll, or a guerrilla style bait and switch. Like, the guy with least amount of skulls draws attention, while the big-haulers run in for the point nab.

[LuckyStrike-Rx]

Sound fun, I played this in UT3 against bot and it's like ctf with more fraging. However It's difficult to find players and it have a way bigger community.

-Collecting is a good idea, as you will try to get as much 'skull' possible before capping, at your own risk.

-Only 1 capture spot is a bad idea IMO, cause I think all players will be on it, using 10% of the map, and rushing there just after spawn.
Best tactic would be to run at flag and try to cap some skull that may fall in the 3m² frag fest. (changing spot every minute would move the melee, but it will the same in a different place every minute)

It work in UT cause you have a travel to reach the capture point. During this you can frags enemy that want to reach the other side, and staying near the capture (in enemy spawn) will allow you to increase the skull number, but higher the risk to loose all your collection. Everything works with the crossed team path.

Remind me BF Multi CTF on (RIP)bloodground (why was it removed ?), Where you had to run around the map to gather flags and bring them to the center. Was a bit chaotic, and unbalanced, but I had some fun time (I remember some close Multi CTF games with DAMIEN)

we decided its better if you can keep on playing as normal even after scoring, so you can do funny things like spawnraping the other team for points :P

The reason you respawn after capture, is to balance spawn kill, and keep the move flow. This may end up with the full team spawn killing the poor looser with plasma ball and continue scoring without having to worry that much. If the blocked team can frag one spawn killer, he will be back before full elimination of his teamate. (nothing should encourage spawnkill anyway )

Another thing is that there is no reason to carry as much 'skull' as possible, you may capture them already, frag spawning guy, capture again, etc...

I suppose 'objectif' team game have to keep a flow between the 2 bases (or multiple place like DTF) that's what make it work (like bringing the flag to home, etc..) It's also the reason you respawn after each capture in bomber ball.

-It's more a gametype than a mutator IMO

Most of this are suppositions, but It makes sens to me.

[arand]

This sounds cool indeed.
The name that struck me by description is "Trophies", but "Greed" conveys the idea equally well.

• Enemy dropping some or all collected skulls seems like a good thing, though I think they should only be collectable by opposing players, defend-the-corpse!
• Would it be good with an incentive to carry multiple skulls (to feed the greed )? Slight score multiplier on unload, slight stats improvement? Number of skulls unlocking weapons? ... Though incentive may not be needed, given a long way to an unload point...
• Would it be good with an indicator of the number of skulls an enemy is carrying (number counter, orbiting skulls, player size...)? Thus target priority by greed.
• In FFA I think multiple unload spots, along with a rather long unload time, might work...

[inpersona64]

-Only 1 capture spot is a bad idea IMO, cause I think all players will be on it, using 10% of the map, and rushing there just after spawn.
Best tactic would be to run at flag and try to cap some skull that may fall in the 3m² frag fest. (changing spot every minute would move the melee, but it will the same in a different place every minute)

Remind me BF Multi CTF on (RIP)bloodground (why was it removed ?), Where you had to run around the map to gather flags and bring them to the center. Was a bit chaotic, and unbalanced, but I had some fun time (I remember some close Multi CTF games with DAMIEN)

Yeah i just thought about that. You're probably right. I can see myself spawning and rushing to the skull droppoint just to kill ppl before they score. Maybe 2 or 3 drop points per map so that people actually have to move around.

and for the second question, Quin removed it because he said "It felt too much like FFA". I can see why that makes sense, but it did have alot of benefits, at least for clans who wanted to pit their best 4 against each other. But this is probably just my Battlefield perspective. I only played Team-Multi-Arena DM with bots anyway because I had dialup and I'd lag mostly when I'm online. So don't mind me.

[qreeves]

Okay then, I've reconsidered my previous decision; r2905 by qreeves (http://redeclipse.net/svn/2905) -> (13 files in 3 dirs) -> reinstated multi mutator due to popular demand

[LuckyStrike-Rx]

You don't have to please everyone If you do things for a reason,you don't have to comeback on them.
I also enjoyed multi-team back in time, but maybe it's not a good idea to re-implement removed feature, or you may end in a loop of I want this, no I hate it finally, etc.

I was just curious about the bloodground map actually

But giving another try to multi CTF, why not.

[qreeves]

Are you talking about the Q3 remake that Wicked did? If so, the map didn't work well in RE and we had trouble getting it textured correctly.

[Ulukai]

Yaaay! Multi!!

[inpersona64]

Are you talking about the Q3 remake that Wicked did? If so, the map didn't work well in RE and we had trouble getting it textured correctly.

Oh yeah, I did notice that when I tried to transfer the map to RE a while back around the RE Beta time. Wazubaba helped me so that the map shows up..but I thought that map wasn't included because of some copyright stuff or something?

[ZeroKnight]

Okay then, I've reconsidered my previous decision; r2905 by qreeves (http://redeclipse.net/svn/2905) -> (13 files in 3 dirs) -> reinstated multi mutator due to popular demand

I just shit brix. This is going in my signature.