Player account organisation

[MyEmail]

You missed the point.

@charlie: No, actually--you missed the point. I am fully aware that FOSS projects are limited in resources. The example I provided in my previous post is pretty self-explanatory: Blizzard uses their monster-company-methods ("suing"), while a FOSS project can use simpler methods with the same result ("fines"). This is why I used this example--because it illustrated the very thing you are saying I "missed".

Let me expound on this a bit--it is easier for a small FOSS project to deal with 1-2 hackers once then it is to deal with dozens (if not hundreds) constantly--and you definitely don't have to be a multi-million dollar monster to make this happen. Like I was mentioning the most that would happen is A) they would get the fine, B) they would send some disgruntled emails, and C) you outline the dozens of clauses they violated (including the one about the fine) and then threaten to sue them for violating the EULA and the incalculable harm they have caused to your game. Needless to say, no lawyer would sue with the odds stacked against them like that.

Hence, with this method a project would have to A) fee someone, B) send a handful of emails (and maybe publicize them), and C) and that's it. After that hacking would be extremely minimal for fear of a fee--if not gone altogether. Beyond the resources of a FOSS project? I think not.

Dealing with hackers constantly beyond the resources of a FOSS project? Most likely. (this includes the other methods in this thread)

[charlie]

I'd just quit the account and create another. How do you get around that?

[MyEmail]

It would cost 99¢ to get an account that way your method of payment would be recorded. Because of this you get hammered with the $50 hacking fine whether or not you create a new account.

[charlie]

It is so easy to get temporary credit cards (see ukash.com) or use multiple email addresses for paypal. You're not thinking this through.

[MyEmail]

You're not thinking this through.

Perhaps you ought to think this through. Let me help you: A) Only accept credible methods of payment, B) 90% of your client-base won't be able to utilize such fraudulent methods, C) such fraudulent methods are likely frauds themselves so the hackers get nailed anyway, D) need I continue?

[charlie]

I'll get my mum to sign up. Or my dad. Or my mate. There's a lot of ways to circumvent this.

When you set up a company and implement this policy successfully and make money with your FOSS project, I'll accept you were right. How's that?

[Tranberry]

To me the way Charlie would cheat the systems seems great, more money. So he will in fact helping the system to get better.

[Julius]

No, since MyEmail is proposing to have the accounts cheap (99ct) and have the deterrence through fees/penalties.

However the problem I see is... how is he going to enforce these penalties... especially world wide (f.e. a guy in Russia is going to have a good laugh at your payment order )? And if you can't enforce the penalties, what's the point of having them?

[MyEmail]

Its easy to enforce. The 99ct account fee is so that the server has a ligament form of payment recorded from which it can automatically charge fees if the user is flagged as a hacker.

@Charlie:

It doesn't matter if you use your mum's or dad's or mate's credit/debit card to pay for the account, the server still charges a fee when you are caught hacking. As to whether your mum/dad/mate confront you about charging fees to their card is their problem. Regardless, you get punished. Also keep in mind 99% of a games client-base is going to be kids, ie those using their mum/dads method of payment. Needless to say mum/dad will punish you (the kid) when they find out you got a $50 fine charged to them.

Not only that, any anti-hacking-method that requires payment of some form is "vulnerable" to this--using someone else's method of payment. This includes purchasing the game in store, paying online monthly subscriptions, etc. Every method that could ever possibly prevent hacking in any form is "vulnerable" this. So this argument is completely, totaly, 100% illegitimate.

No matter which way you look at it--if this is implemented correctly it would be effective, and in particular more effective than other methods for a FOSS project. Most of what you are arguing is IMHO contrary to the most basic common sense, so please think it through before posting. I don't want to constantly counter useless arguments--which common sense should solve--in order to voice my legitimate idea which I think could benefit the FOSS world.

[sireus]

I won't even talk about how difficult, expensive and legally complicated it is to start some world-wide "business-like thing". Guess why services like Ebay, Steam, or Bandcamp are so popular among individuals and (very) small enterprises? Because they all allow you to sell stuff without having to handle all the infrastructural and legal stuff.
Even determining who your service needs to pay taxes to would keep a whole staff of lawyers busy.
Besides: if someone refuses to pay the fine and just laughs at you, would you be ready to file a lawsuit in Russia, as Julius said? It might work, but could easily cost you 50.000$.
Now consider why the big companies in the industry don't charge fines for cheating, even though some games are being wrecked by it.

[charlie]

The only service I know of in the UK that allows a company to collect variable amounts of money automatically without intervention of the payer is a direct debit. And it comes with the direct debit guarantee:

Direct Debit Guarantee

* The Guarantee is offered by all banks and building societies that accept instruction to pay Direct Debits
* If there are any changes to the amount, date or frequency of your Direct Debit the organisation will notify you (normally 10 working days) in advance of your account being debited or as otherwise agreed. If you request the organisation to collect a payment, confirmation of the amount and date will be given to you at the time of the request
* If an error is made in the payment of your Direct Debit, by the organisation or your bank or building society, you are entitled to a full and immediate refund of the amount paid from your bank or building society.
o If you receive a refund you are not entitled to, you must pay it back when the organisation asks you to
* You can cancel a Direct Debit at any time by simply contacting your bank or building society. Written confirmation may be required. Please also notify the organisation.

Which is why we get billed in advance. You are inventing a way of extracting money from "hackers" which does not exist.

Yes, it says "or as otherwise agreed" but how many people are going to trust your company when it states "we can fine you any amount at any time without your permission" - this will turn a lot of people off especially once you exercise this right and knowledge spreads around. There's no judge and jury, just MyEmail law.

If it was a credit card payment where you kept their details on file, it would be illegal to just process it for money and any half intelligent person could have the payment cancelled or just keep it in credit by a maximum of a few bucks.

I am thinking this through MyEmail. You want to set up a service that runs in a way that does not apply to the real world.

The only way you could have it work is to have a security deposit that is refundable once a player leaves the service. It is a game changer though if you are asking people to pay $50 up front, even if you are to return it.

[MyEmail]

You are inventing a way of extracting money from "hackers" which does not exist.

Uh, but it is a practice used all over the place everywhere else. This is just the 1st time it would be used to combat hacking.

Yes, it says "or as otherwise agreed" but how many people are going to trust your company when it states "we can fine you any amount at any time without your permission" - this will turn a lot of people off especially once you exercise this right and knowledge spreads around. There's no judge and jury, just MyEmail law.

Lets outline a few common-sense scenarios in real-life examples where people are Ok:

1. Overdraft fees on credit/debit cards.
2. Other monthly and annual fees on credit/debit services.
3. Monthly subscriptions with auto-renewal features.
4. Violation of a homeowners association contract.
5. The list goes on, and on, and on.

This entire idea of "charging fines for violating a contract" is used in society all over the place. All over the place--and every non-insecure adult is perfectly fine with it. My idea would just be applying this effective, common, and acceptable practice to combating hacking.

I am perfectly fine using a Credit card so long as I know when, where, and how the fees apply. Like a Credit card, with a anti-hacking service I would perfectly fine with fees for hackers so long as I knew when, where, and how the fees apply. And like me, 99% of adults would be perfectly fine with it, just as they are with all the other occurrences of this practice in modern society.

I am thinking this through MyEmail.

I would beg to differ--Either your not thinking it through, or your a ten year old who doesn't know what he is talking about. I hope for the former, and no offense, just please think things through.

[Julius]

You are inventing a way of extracting money from "hackers" which does not exist.

Uh, but it is a practice used all over the place everywhere else. This is just the 1st time it would be used to combat hacking.

Yes, but it works by sending a bill or court payment order, which someone outside of the USA or Europe can simply refuse to pay (and even inside these regions, they can probably just refuse to pay it, as you will have a hard time proving in court that a) they cheated and b) that they agreed to the usage terms, unless you require registration in paper form)

Yes, it says "or as otherwise agreed" but how many people are going to trust your company when it states "we can fine you any amount at any time without your permission" - this will turn a lot of people off especially once you exercise this right and knowledge spreads around. There's no judge and jury, just MyEmail law.

Lets outline a few common-sense scenarios in real-life examples where people are Ok:

1. Overdraft fees on credit/debit cards.
2. Other monthly and annual fees on credit/debit services.
3. Monthly subscriptions with auto-renewal features.
4. Violation of a homeowners association contract.
5. The list goes on, and on, and on.

This entire idea of "charging fines for violating a contract" is used in society all over the place. All over the place--and every non-insecure adult is perfectly fine with it. My idea would just be applying this effective, common, and acceptable practice to combating hacking.

I am perfectly fine using a Credit card so long as I know when, where, and how the fees apply. Like a Credit card, with a anti-hacking service I would perfectly fine with fees for hackers so long as I knew when, where, and how the fees apply. And like me, 99% of adults would be perfectly fine with it, just as they are with all the other occurrences of this practice in modern society.

Most payment forms as Charly already mentioned either don't allow direct debit, or allow you to force-return the money.
You are right that credit-cards do not allow this AFAIK, but most companies offer fraud protection, which people could easily activate if you fine them. Thus the credit-card companies would be coming after you (and the cheater would probably even get a refund of the money from the insurance), and you will have a lot of fun proving that your claim was justified, as (see above) you can not prove in court that they cheated or that they even agreed to the terms.
Do this game a few times and you are blacklisted with all credit-card companies

[MyEmail]

I dunno about where you live Julius, but fines don't come wrapped up in court payment orders or bills. Even if it did come this way and they refused to pay, you permanently ban their credit/debit card, which takes care of the problem anyway. If you really wanted to you could even report it to the credit bureau, which would be even worse than a $50 fine.

If the user did activate fraud protection it would be easy to deal with. Upon a simple chat with the credit card companies (outlining everything that happened, including how the client is dodging a fine he/she rightfully received by violating a contract, and that the client is abusing their "fraud protection" feature) and it would be over--they wouldn't blacklist you because their client misused a fraud protection feature. And it definitely wouldn't ever make it to the courts, it would be maybe a call or two and some exchange of proof and that's it.

Do note that what you are outlining here is a extreme worst case scenario, 99% of the time it would never ever be this bad. There is no way the user could come out on top, and unless you came across a real stubborn goat that is willing to violate laws, ruin their credit, and have their credit/debit card revoked, this extreme worst case scenario would never happen.

Not only that, and like I illustrated to Charlie, anybody could do this to any other form of anti-hacking measure. In fact, not even commercial games sold in stores are protected from lunatics taking such extreme measures. Using your logic I could walk into Walmart and buy Starcraft 2, then activate my "anti-fraud" feature and not pay for a dime. It is illogical to assume my anti-hacking method is invalid because it is vulnerable to these extreme measures when every other method is vulnerable to the same exact thing.

[FreakNigh]

Julius and Charlie are right, there is a secret court system that credit card processors have that consumers don't know about that is entirely in the favor of the credit card user. All a credit card user has to do is call their bank and say this charge is a fraud and the bank will revoke it without question and leave the burden of proof entirely on the business. It will also fine the business and give them a black mark whether the business was right or not. This is to make sure that businesses dealing with credit cards are extra fair about their dealings (also a great way to make money with the fines).

Important: This is why you have to sign your credit card receipts, so upon billing the business has proof that you accepted the payment. If you just take it out of their account for any reason without prior agreement at the time of taking it then your going to have a hell of a time proving your in the right for taking it, especially if it was done over the internet with no signed receipts! Even paypal will freeze an entire business account over one dispute and pull the money right out of your paypal account.

And yes, HOA's, Banks, Gym Memberships all try to function outside the law on this matter. However they do get a lot of kick back from it and quite often do not win! If this trouble is what comes out of this method of fining players then it is not worth it. If your suggesting to run this business ment for FOSS games is such a way that charge backs are expected and that having someone on staff to deal with them is needed then the whole approach is absurd. It's all not moral and shouldn't be humored. Why make a business that cheats people in the style of a HOA or Bank.

[Knitter]

I won't go much into the current discussion, but it's something I think worth mentioning, be very careful when generalizing how the law works in other countries.

I can't talk about other countries but in mine (Portugal), fines (as in when you do something illegal and have to pay money in return) can only be applied by law enforcement agencies. When you talk about "fines" related to a contract breach then it really isn't a "fine", and at best falls into the category of contract breach. A contract breach results in the immediate contract termination, but to be able to receive some money and apply what you called a "fine" you will have to go to court.

If a user refuses to pay, you can send him several requests using registered mail and only after not paying can you request, at a court, that the user's assets be seized and used to pay the "fine". You'll spend more money in court and in lawyers than your users. This is one of the reasons why passing the "green lane" ( I don't really know how to translate it) at the highway toll without having a contract or not paying the highway toll is considered a crime. It's also the reason why communication companies have so much trouble getting money back when the client stops paying since is't "only" a contract breach.

As for credit cards, we have a system called mbnet, it allows me to create virtual credit cards that are attached to my debit card. I can then use the virtual card in any online store that accepts VISA or MasterCard. You won't be able to block any of my cards since they are virtual cards and can only be used once. I can create any amount of virtual credit cards I want and I can do it online with a few clicks.

1. Overdraft fees on credit/debit cards.
2. Other monthly and annual fees on credit/debit services.

These are all contract breaches and nothing really happens to me if I don't pay, the worst thing that happens in the short term is that I stop getting the service I contracted.

3. Monthly subscriptions with auto-renewal features.

Are limited to a time/day and amount, you won't be able to withdraw arbitrary amounts from my account and I have 5 days to cancel the transfer before you even get the money.

5. The list goes on, and on, and on.

And it may be that in some countries you manage to penalize the hacker, but I doubt you'd have the necessary legal resources to do so easily.

My point is, if you want the fine system to work in the USA you may be able to consider all the legal aspects involved and work with that, but if you want your system to be able to be used world wide, or even if only in Europe and the USA, you'll have to spend a lot o money and time just to be able to stay legal in all the countries you're in.

As an example, I pay 99cents for the account. I start to cheat on your servers and you try to fine me, you send me a 100€ fine that I don't pay. The only way you have to force me to pay, considering that you have a legal business established in Europe (with all the costs associated with it) since I'm in Portugal, is if you go to court and that will take you more than the 100€ you will even get from the "fine" you imposed on me. The Portuguese court will take from 6 moths to a 1 year, if you're lucky, to properly process everything. I, on the other hand, will be able to create a new account in you server, with a new credit card (real or virtual) and keep on cheating.

In the end you'll spend more in legal fees and lawyers than any amount you'll be able to get from me. It's a nice way to bankrupt you .

I've only seen one cheat control system that almost worked and that was the one in WoW, and it almost works not because I have to pay anything, but because I'll loose all my characters and account information and that is worth more than most "fines" I could get.

[MyEmail]

Not only that, and like I illustrated to Charlie, anybody could do this to any other form of anti-hacking measure. In fact, not even commercial games sold in stores are protected from lunatics taking such extreme measures. Using your logic I could walk into Walmart and buy Starcraft 2, then activate my "anti-fraud" feature and not pay for a dime. It is illogical to assume my anti-hacking method is invalid because it is vulnerable to these extreme measures when every other method is vulnerable to the same exact thing.

Hi, I have quoted this paragraph in my original post for a good reason: it counters your entire argument of "credit card law". Every method--including the one Julius originally proposed--is vulnerable to lunatics abusing credit cards. As long as a method requires online payment its vulnerable to this. Even purchasing something in-store isn't safe from these absurd measures you claim users are going to go through.

It is illogical to assume my idea is invalid because it suffers from this when every other anti-hacking idea is going to suffer from the same exact thing. Not only that, but I provided several supplementary solutions to address this issue even IF it where to happen. Here is an example from my previous posts: Consider IF you had to send the fines via bills--the user would either pay, or have them reported to the credit bureau and hurt their credit. Obviously they would pay.

Here is another supplementary solution: Clients who abuse chargeback's get blacklisted. Upon the account registration, the server would lookup their information and see if they are blacklisted. If they are blacklisted you don't give them an account. This would weed out every user who knew how to abuse their fraud features and had in the past.

[charlie]

You are inventing a way of extracting money from "hackers" which does not exist.

Uh, but it is a practice used all over the place everywhere else. This is just the 1st time it would be used to combat hacking.

Yes, all over the place. In contracts that are worth a helluva more than $0.99 a month and cancelling said contract has real world consequences i.e. losing your electricity service means you have no electricity. You are clueless about real world costs and practicality. I run a business mate. It is hard enough extracting contactually agreed fees from companies when you can remove support and drop serviecs. I know for a fact that you can't just charge people the way you want to.

For a few bucks a year, you think you'll have the resources to debt collect on anybody? This is not the fail safe way to eliminate hacking that you think it is, and if anything it would goad hackers in to being pretty intent on taking you down. You're challenging them, trying to take their money, and trying to cut them out. Somebody smart enough to be a black hacker will eat you and your service for breakfast.

Lets outline a few common-sense scenarios in real-life examples where people are Ok:

1. Overdraft fees on credit/debit cards.

...this is levied directly on your card or account by the company i.e. BANK that owns that card/account. They are not a third party.

2. Other monthly and annual fees on credit/debit services.

...they have to bill you in advance. They also run services i.e. utilities that you can't do without. They also will debt collect if you owe $100s because it is profitable to do so.

3. Monthly subscriptions with auto-renewal features.

...a fixed price repeating amount.

4. Violation of a homeowners association contract.

...gets added to your mortgage. A game service is not in the same league as a mortgage.

5. The list goes on, and on, and on.

...but only in cases where you don't get to fine arbitrary amounts without first warning the person. Yes, you can get a fine for late payment on a utility. But then they threaten to cut off the utility if you don't pay. A $0.99 a month game service? Fine, I refuse to pay. I'll block payments on my cards/accounts. I'll sign up under another alias and another credit card, it's easy enough.

I can't be bothered with this conversation any more. You live in a complete fantasy world where you make psuedo-facts fit your ill-thought out plan which you have not researched in any meaningful way. This "I can take money from people's bank accounts and credit cards without giving them notice" is 1) illegal and 2) not happening any time soon - not by you, nor by a commercial game company, and especially not by a Free software project. Billing people $50 extra for breaching rules will get laughed at by anybody with half a brain. It is a non-starter, and if you are not able to see reality and think it is a worthwhile approach I dare you to prove wrong.

/c out

[Knitter]

Consider IF you had to send the fines via bills--the user would either pay, or have them reported to the credit bureau and hurt their credit. Obviously they would pay.

You cannot report me to any credit bureau for not paying a service, it's a contract breach between your company and me and you can only force me to pay by going to court.

Clients who abuse chargeback's get blacklisted. Upon the account registration, the server would lookup their information and see if they are blacklisted. If they are blacklisted you don't give them an account. This would weed out every user who knew how to abuse their fraud features and had in the past.

You cannot, legally, deny to provide me the services your company sells unless you have court order to do so, again, you need to go to court to be able to deny selling me your services.

I don't know where you're from, but if you want to sell that service here in Portugal, and please consider that all your suggestions require the creation of a legally established company with all the fees associated with it including the necessary taxes, you'll have a lot of trouble getting users to pay any additional fees. Even ignoring the initial investment required for such system to be created, there is hardly any chance that you can force cheaters to pay any "fines".

You may be able to implement your ideas in other countries but I really doubt that such ideas are legally and financially viable.

[MyEmail]

You cannot report me to any credit bureau for not paying a service, it's a contract breach between your company and me and you can only force me to pay by going to court.

Umm... No its not a contract breach, and yes I can report you to the credit bureau.

You cannot, legally, deny to provide me the services your company sells unless you have court order to do so, again, you need to go to court to be able to deny selling me your services.

Yes I can xD. Consider if I owned a window-washing service. I could refuse any customer I wanted too and there is nothing they could do. They would have to go to court to force me to wash their windows, but it would always get thrown out of court instantly, and nobody is going to go to court because they are denied a service to a videogame. The idea of having to go to court to deny someone a service you provide is absolutely absurd. The idea of someone going to court because they are denied a service is completely absurd. This part of your argument is entirely absurd.

[MyEmail]

You are clueless about real world costs and practicality. I run a business mate. It is hard enough extracting contactually agreed fees from companies when you can remove support and drop serviecs. I know for a fact that you can't just charge people the way you want to.

You know, in an argument you usually provide facts--not throw insults and claim to be Bill Gates. If you really want this to be a valid argument, please provide proof that you are a corporate owner and not a fool trolling the forums. I want the name and location of your business. A report on your business, including net value and yearly revenue. I want proof from your business that you are actually running it. etc etc. Please be prompt with this report.

For a few bucks a year, you think you'll have the resources to debt collect on anybody? This is not the fail safe way to eliminate hacking that you think it is, and if anything it would goad hackers in to being pretty intent on taking you down. You're challenging them, trying to take their money, and trying to cut them out. Somebody smart enough to be a black hacker will eat you and your service for breakfast.

When did I ever say I was going to debt collect? In fact, everything I have mentioned for dealing with payment-avoiders is the exact opposite of debt collecting. And I would like to see hackers "take me down" when my server auto-bans their credit card without me lifting a finger. And I am pretty sure constantly signing up for new cards is going to be pretty tough just to hack in a videogame. But banning them is extremely easy, as the server would do it automatically.

...a fixed price repeating amount.

And that counters the argument, how? In fact it supports it--companies make repeating charges to peoples cards without their explicit written consent all the time, like this example shows. Even IF you can't charge their card, you can still use the countless other supplementary methods I have provided. Here is another one: Ban their credit-card until they do pay the fine. If they signup under another card they will just get banned again, and the process will repeat itself until they run out of credit cards. In the end they must either A) be permanently banned or B) pay the fee.

...but only in cases where you don't get to fine arbitrary amounts without first warning the person. Yes, you can get a fine for late payment on a utility. But then they threaten to cut off the utility if you don't pay. A $0.99 a month game service? Fine, I refuse to pay. I'll block payments on my cards/accounts. I'll sign up under another alias and another credit card, it's easy enough.

They would be warned first. And you can go ahead and refuse to pay the fine, you just suffer the consequences. And like I mentioned above "just signing up under new aliases with new cards" wouldn't work, you would end up with a permanent ban on all your cards until you pay the fine on one.

I can't be bothered with this conversation any more.

That's entirely your choice, but raging out of a argument only proves that your argument was invalid.

You live in a complete fantasy world where you make psuedo-facts fit your ill-thought out plan which you have not researched in any meaningful way.

No, its just that you (and your little fansite) are overwhelmingly scrupulous to my ideas. I am sure you could tear apart just about any other idea anywhere else on these forums just as you have mine. Every time I better my idea through your criticism, you just find another way to prove me wrong, rather than helping me fix the problems with my idea. Which again, you are here to berate me--not to better my idea nor to find a viable anti-hacking solution. So yes, please leave this conversation.

I dare you to prove wrong.

Stuff like this never works as it is the epitome of desperation when debating. Wanna know why it never works? Because I can counter it with an equally as useless argument: I dare you to prove me wrong.

[sireus]

You won't be able to accept it anyway, but rest assured that your arguments are invalid.

Anyway, here's something completely different: did you ever consider that a significant share of the people who play free (freeware or OSS) games are minors who don't have a credit card?

[Knitter]

That is why I said you need to take into consideration the law of the countries where you operate. My comment was based on the fact that I'm a Portuguese citizen and I'm subject to Portuguese law, as are you if you want to properly sell anything to me.

Umm... No its not a contract breach, and yes I can report you to the credit bureau.

Yes, it is. You sold a service where I could play a game, the contract specified some monetary penalties for cheating and I chose not to pay you. I breach the contract with you not with the credit card company. And there is the problem of the virtual credit cart that is used by Portuguese players to pay online.

Yes I can xD. Consider if I owned a window-washing service. I could refuse any customer I wanted too and there is nothing they could do. They would have to go to court to force me to wash their windows, but it would always get thrown out of court instantly, and nobody is going to go to court because they are denied a service to a videogame. The idea of having to go to court to deny someone a service you provide is absolutely absurd. The idea of someone going to court because they are denied a service is completely absurd. This part of your argument is entirely absurd.

It may be absurd to you but it's Portuguese law, and if I'm denied a service (except for alcohol sales) I don't need to go to court, I just contact either the consumers defense association or the Portuguese's official entity for commercial activities.

But this is discussing peanuts, what I really wanted to point out is that you can't generalize based on you local laws.

[oln]

It may be absurd to you but it's Portuguese law, and if I'm denied a service (except for alcohol sales) I don't need to go to court, I just contact either the consumers defense association or the Portuguese's official entity for commercial activities.

Would be somewhat similar in here in Norway as well, and I assume most of Europe does have these kinds of options as well. Maybe the consumer protection laws aren't as strong where MyEmail is from.

[MyEmail]

You won't be able to accept it anyway, but rest assured that your arguments are invalid.

@sireus: Really? Accepting accounts for 99ct then banning credit cards if they hack is an invalid argument? *ahem*. Its just that we have all gotten way off subject in "lets all see if we can prove MyEmail wrong!", not that my original arguments are invalid.

@oln+knitter: No, the united states doesn't have psycho-laws . Consider if the window-washer was asked to wash 100 windows in 1 day, but can only manage 25. According to you the window-washer would have to go to court 75 times in 1 day to prove that he can't wash everyone's windows. Sorry, but that is totally absurd.