Politics!

Politics!

Postby Lyberta » 17 Apr 2019, 14:50

Moderator notice: split off from here: https://forum.freegamedev.net/viewtopic ... 20&t=11040

...and that's why all code must be AGPL and all assets CC BY-SA. Because otherwise the community will destroy it. OK, I stopped caring about Godot at this point. MIT is extreme cancer.
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Re: Some new libre games I've found

Postby fluffrabbit » 17 Apr 2019, 16:30

MIT is cancer. It's a poorly-written license that only cares about attribution but doesn't specify who/what/when/where/how. Get enough MIT-licensed dependencies in your repo (like with Godot) and suddenly you've got to make a credits list for everybody because somebody neglected to do that on account of mistaking the MIT license for public domain or something. Not fun.

For the record, I like public domain, WTFPL, zlib, Boost, and the BSD licenses (specifying "in source form" and "in binary form" to be explicit).

AGPL? That's a little extreme. It's basically a freeware license with source code included. The non-commercial aspect precludes it from inclusion in several Linux distros. CC-BY-SA on the other hand is very much like the GPL so GPL+CC-BY-SA would serve the purpose.

Because otherwise the community will destroy it.


Okay, but how does a community destroy permissively licensed software?
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Re: Some new libre games I've found

Postby Julius » 17 Apr 2019, 16:44

Moderator notice: Early warning to both of you: Don't start stupid licensing flame-wars here!
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Some new libre games I've found

Postby fluffrabbit » 17 Apr 2019, 17:28

Julius {l Wrote}:Moderator notice: Early warning to both of you: Don't start stupid licensing flame-wars here!


Not flaming, license discussion is fun! I was a lawyer in a past life.
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Re: Some new libre games I've found

Postby Lyberta » 18 Apr 2019, 15:55

fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:AGPL? That's a little extreme. It's basically a freeware license with source code included. The non-commercial aspect precludes it from inclusion in several Linux distros.


Wait, what? AGPL permits commercial use. The only difference between AGPL and GPL is that you must provide the source code when you run it on your server.

fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:CC-BY-SA on the other hand is very much like the GPL so GPL+CC-BY-SA would serve the purpose.


Someone can make a closed source service with GPL.

fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:Okay, but how does a community destroy permissively licensed software?


By making proprietary derivative works.
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Re: Some new libre games I've found

Postby fluffrabbit » 18 Apr 2019, 17:16

AGPL permits commercial use. The only difference between AGPL and GPL is that you must provide the source code when you run it on your server.

Whoa, I totally missed that. That's actually pretty reasonable. I guess it just gets in the grill of OnLive, etc. Remember them? They were gonna be huuuuge...

By making proprietary derivative works.

I don't have ethical standards except when I'm feeling super liberal. That's sort of the point of copyfree licensing. In that respect, a programmer can choose to give the work away and allow it to be reused without limit, i.e. in commercial/proprietary games. As an indie game developer, I am A-OK with commercial/proprietary games and thankful for anything that makes my work easier. It's all a matter of your ideal world. In my ideal world, I'm making money, because the reality of communism today is not nearly the ideal. And of course it's fair that I give my code away for commercial/proprietary reuse as well.
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Re: Some new libre games I've found

Postby Lyberta » 19 Apr 2019, 16:24

And I think that copyright and patents shouldn't exist because they deny freedom for no other reason than pure greed. I think universal basic income and socialism are good enough compromises while automation powered anarchism is the best.
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Re: Some new libre games I've found

Postby fluffrabbit » 19 Apr 2019, 21:19

And I think that copyright and patents shouldn't exist

I agree...

because they deny freedom for no other reason than pure greed.

Greed is good. Software isn't very tangible. IP laws are kinda hard to enforce.

I think universal basic income and socialism are good enough compromises while automation powered anarchism is the best.

How universal? Within a country, that country's average lifestyle can be more or less maintained, but the larger the country, the more third-world, or should I say, "basic", the basic income is. Socialism is a pretty subjective term.
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Re: Some new libre games I've found

Postby Lyberta » 20 Apr 2019, 05:28

fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:IP laws are kinda hard to enforce.


But it's easy to send cease and desist letter and ban people on all kind of public platforms.

fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:How universal? Within a country, that country's average lifestyle can be more or less maintained, but the larger the country, the more third-world, or should I say, "basic", the basic income is. Socialism is a pretty subjective term.


I'd say enough to buy food, clothes, pay the bills and afford some PC upgrades every 5 years or so. For example my pension is 300$/month and that's not enough for even food because my family spends about 500$/month on food. As a result, I have to rely on my parents for money. This is bullshit.
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Re: Some new libre games I've found

Postby fluffrabbit » 20 Apr 2019, 22:46

Lyberta {l Wrote}:
fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:IP laws are kinda hard to enforce.


But it's easy to send cease and desist letter and ban people on all kind of public platforms.


Well, those IP trolls are shitty assholes and putting them out of business would be a victory for sure. Still, it'll be DRM or SaaS or some other measure amplified infinitely once IP laws go away. The concept of propery is central to capitalism, and there always seems to be a way to guard the treasure, even if doing so becomes politically unpopular. Though I'm anti-DRM, the Creative Commons licenses explicitly prohibiting that (without most people knowing) bugs me. Corporations are animals that must feed, and many parasites (humans) depend on the beasts and their proprietary platforms to varying degrees, and I haven't seen a lot of decentralized distribution technologies that support capitalism, but that may change.

Lyberta {l Wrote}:
fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:How universal? Within a country, that country's average lifestyle can be more or less maintained, but the larger the country, the more third-world, or should I say, "basic", the basic income is. Socialism is a pretty subjective term.


I'd say enough to buy food, clothes, pay the bills and afford some PC upgrades every 5 years or so. For example my pension is 300$/month and that's not enough for even food because my family spends about 500$/month on food. As a result, I have to rely on my parents for money. This is bullshit.


That situation sounds awful, but it's nothing new to me in the desert dystopia I live in now; that's half the people I know. Let's say $500/month (dollar sign at the beginning because I'm American) is the basic minimum income or whatever. There are 327 million individuals here. About half of the working age has something like a self-sufficient income, and that age group is only about 60% of the population, so about a third would be propping up the rest, which they are already doing, except with the system there would be an additional immigration incentive, so in come all the third-world people and it gets worse than it already is.

It would be nice to have such a system in place, but it's questionable how nice it is if a minority of countries are doing it.
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Re: Some new libre games I've found

Postby drummyfish » 21 Apr 2019, 01:37

Lyberta {l Wrote}:And I think that copyright and patents shouldn't exist because they deny freedom for no other reason than pure greed. I think universal basic income and socialism are good enough compromises while automation powered anarchism is the best.


I totally agree with this. Since this has been split, let me write a little bit about my philosophy about licensing. And the society.

For a long time I used to be very indecisive about specific licenses, and particularly about the concept of copyleft. Copyleft restricts restrictions, so... it is a restriction which prevents restriction. I am against restriction, so... is that good? Well, eventually I have realized you can't fight fire with fire. And even generally, a fight, a war, is something to avoid in truly modern society as means to solve problems. There are other ways than force. So after a long time of thinking about this, constantly wrestling with licenses when coding, I have finally been enlightened... I have settled for CC0 -- the maximum freedom option -- which says I distance myself from this licensing nonsense. No conditions, asterisks, attributions, international laws... no nothing -- just plain simple and pure creativity and collaboration. Also importantly, CC0 has then completely aligned with an ideal model of society I have discovered in the meantime, which I believe we should direct ourselves towards, and which is, as you say, socialist and anarchist. I usually add pacifist to it as well.

My ideal society is basically the communist ideal, except I disagree with the means by which communists strive to achieve it (revolution, violence, totalitarianism, ...). There is no money in this world, no competition, just collaboration -- therefore there aren't even laws in the sense of legislation, i.e. enforced rules, such as copyright. No, this society -- and keep in mind this can be a small internet community, existing even today -- consists almost exclusively of intelligent and educated people, who see that behaving in a collaborative way, in a world where we no longer compete with other species and have enough resources, benefits everyone, and so all laws are just moral. They don't need to be exactly specified, neither enforced -- they're simply any logically inferred rules, which if followed by most people, converge to an ideal society, on which the majority of people agree -- a society without suffering, maximizing happiness of everyone. There is no need for a state, this is a distributed system of peers, who follow logical rules in order to achieve a common goal... just like with many open distributed systems we already see today, such as bitcoin, torrents, free software development etc.

I try to make people see this and use CC0 in order to break free from the legislation laws in an attempt to convey the moral laws instead, get close to the ideal society, even if on a small scale at this early stage. The community will grow. Can someone abuse this? Absolutely, anyone can take my work and make it proprietary, but it probably won't contribute any great amount to the already gigantic proprietary industry. It also doesn't happen in practice because of reasons (e.g. companies want complete control over their IP, which with PD they don't have, so they invest a bit into making their own). I may potentially feel "cheated", but I don't, because these people exist outside of my free culture world, and I am willing to take these risks and even make this sacrifice for the better society. I do believe this is the way to go.

With that said, I still support basically any free software, the FSF, even copyleft and so on, even if I don't completely identify with these means of operation. Their goal is the same as mine, and a diversity of tactics may lead there as well. But yeah, I very much prefer CC0 for everything now.
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Re: Some new libre games I've found

Postby Lyberta » 21 Apr 2019, 02:21

fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:The concept of propery is central to capitalism, and there always seems to be a way to guard the treasure, even if doing so becomes politically unpopular.


I'm fine with physical property but IP is invented crap that doesn't exist in the law.

drummyfish {l Wrote}:And even generally, a fight, a war, is something to avoid in truly modern society as means to solve problems.


Sure, current tactic is to lobby specific laws and let people die as a result of those laws. Donald Trump can't just build concentration camps to kill all trans people, he's just gonna ban them from military first, then add more laws that leave them without employment and healthcare and then they die. Ahh, 21st century genocide.
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Re: Some license discussion (Some new libre games I've found

Postby fluffrabbit » 21 Apr 2019, 05:45

I hate to voice political opinions, but it's not like I have anything else to do...

intelligent and educated people, who see that behaving in a collaborative way, in a world where we no longer compete with other species and have enough resources, benefits everyone, and so all laws are just moral. They don't need to be exactly specified, neither enforced -- they're simply any logically inferred rules, which if followed by most people, converge to an ideal society, on which the majority of people agree -- a society without suffering, maximizing happiness of everyone.

You've lost me there. How about a little dumbness and suffering for old time's sake? Some of us like aspects of society which you don't seem to. Perhaps diverging into societies which work for different personalities would be best.

Sure, current tactic is to lobby specific laws and let people die as a result of those laws. Donald Trump can't just build concentration camps to kill all trans people, he's just gonna ban them from military first, then add more laws that leave them without employment and healthcare and then they die. Ahh, 21st century genocide.

Nothing I say is going to make me sound like a good guy, but I feel that the military follows different rules from the rest of society. Don't ask don't tell etc.
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Re: Some new libre games I've found

Postby O01eg » 21 Apr 2019, 07:42

Lyberta {l Wrote}:Donald Trump can't just build concentration camps to kill all trans people, he's just gonna ban them from military first, then add more laws that leave them without employment and healthcare and then they die. Ahh, 21st century genocide.


Trump Derangement Syndrome looks like terrible mental illness. Military is a dangerous place where people have a good chance to die. You cann't say banning someone from it is a genocide.

Any laws forbidding anyone from accessing to private healthcare and private employment and entrepreneurship are unconstitutional so it isn't something you should afraid in sane mind.
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Re: Some new libre games I've found

Postby O01eg » 21 Apr 2019, 08:01

Lyberta {l Wrote}:And I think that copyright and patents shouldn't exist because they deny freedom for no other reason than pure greed.


Pirates have a greed as well. The sole reason for copyrights and patents is a government control for information.

Lyberta {l Wrote}:I think universal basic income and socialism are good enough compromises while automation powered anarchism is the best.


It fails every time it been tried.
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Re: Some license discussion (Some new libre games I've found

Postby drummyfish » 21 Apr 2019, 17:10

fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:You've lost me there. How about a little dumbness and suffering for old time's sake? Some of us like aspects of society which you don't seem to. Perhaps diverging into societies which work for different personalities would be best.


There will always be a minority of people who are either crazy, not intelligent enough etc., who don't understand this -- nowadays these people are a majority and we call them rightists -- these will resist the system and even try to destroy it -- of course I don't think we can ever achieve a 100% perfection. However, with the intellectual evolution of humanity, which is undeniable, and better education, and also very importantly people simply growing up in this environment and being naturally raised with these values, I believe the rightist people will quickly become such a minority that the system can deal with them. Absolutely most people will acquire the moral rules of the society as completely natural -- for example, in the same sense absolutely most people nowadays see lying (or even extreme things like going on a killing spree) as immoral, most people will see hoarding money and not sharing information as immoral in the ideal future.

In my ideal society, we don't punish people who try to directly destroy the society and cause direct harm (killing spree), we just make minimal steps to protect the society from them. So we temporarily immobilize them and put them into isolation, which is however not a prison -- it can be an island where they have all the luxuries, and can even communicate with the world, just are unable to create weapons and cause harm. This is the minimum amount of force and restriction that I think will practically always have to be there (until the 100% perfect society). Censorship is never present -- if a rightist wants to preach a rightist ideology, they can... people simply won't listen to them, because they will be like the crazy religious preachers in the streets nowadays, they make no sense.

Different personalities are indeed welcome -- when I say I want to maximize happiness, I mean exactly this -- whatever it is that makes you happy I want you to be able to do, as much as possible. Even though the society doesn't work on competitive principles, you can still be a competitive kind of person, and compete in games, sports etc. If you like shooting people, you can have this experience via virtual reality, no problem, as well as being a CEO of a virtual company in a computer game -- IRL this is out of question of course. If you like to just lie on a beach and not contribute to anything, that is okay too. The only thing you can't do is simply destroy the society, which, if you are smart enough, you don't want to, because it is a society that truly prioritizes you.

Or is there anything you wouldn't be able to do in this kind of society?
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Re: Some license discussion (Some new libre games I've found

Postby fluffrabbit » 21 Apr 2019, 17:40

Or is there anything you wouldn't be able to do in this kind of society?

The virtual reality would need to be so convincing that I would enter into it, have my memory erased, and never be able to return. At that point, I would not be in your "perfect" society.
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Re: Some license discussion (Some new libre games I've found

Postby Julius » 21 Apr 2019, 17:45

Well this went from a largely senseless licensing discussion to an in depth but also a bit pointless political discussion. Please keep it civil and tone down the swear words (this forum is frequented by quite a lot of minors AFAIK) :heart:

Regarding this general discussion... I would like to point people to the interesting idea of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communalism or sometimes called "democratic confederalism" which is a bit like what drummyfish describes but due to the open and somewhat competing nature of different ideas in the resulting city-states / regions it is probably something also people with more right-wing ideals can get behind and support (I disagree that these right-wings ideals are only from "crazy, not intelligent enough etc., who don't understand" people, even though I do not share most of their beliefs).
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Re: Some license discussion (Some new libre games I've found

Postby fluffrabbit » 21 Apr 2019, 17:59

Julius {l Wrote}:Well this went from a largely senseless licensing discussion to an in depth but also a bit pointless political discussion. Please keep it civil and tone down the swear words (this forum is frequented by quite a lot of minors AFAIK) :heart:

Regarding this general discussion... I would like to point people to the interesting idea of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communalism or sometimes called "democratic confederalism" which is a bit like what drummyfish describes but due to the open and somewhat competing nature of different ideas in the resulting city-states / regions it is probably something also people with more right-wing ideals can get behind and support (I disagree that these right-wings ideals are only from "crazy, not intelligent enough etc., who don't understand" people, even though I do not share most of their beliefs).

See how much fun we can have when we're not talking about code?

One aspect of communalism I don't get is the need to federate. Wouldn't that be like the US or the EU except with states replaced by city-states? Why not city-states without trade alliances etc. Rather, just independent city-states with their own distinct ideals, and you just pick one that makes sense for you.
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Re: Some license discussion (Some new libre games I've found

Postby drummyfish » 21 Apr 2019, 18:38

@Julius, thanks for letting this conversation continue :-) I have no intentions on forcing my ideas to anyone because I believe they make sense and everyone who thinks about it has to arrive at the same thing, so I only try to light that spark of thought.

I am also open to hearing what others have to say, because I may well be wrong in my reasonings, as anyone, and if someone clearly shows me my errors, I would be crazy to continue to stand behind somethings that's been proven wrong. I admit a lot of this comes down to beliefs. The most common argument against socialism et. al. is that it is a utopia, which I believe is not true -- it may be very difficult to get there, but it's enough to get there just once.

Also thanks for bringing up Communalism -- I haven't read much about it, and as you say, it seems closer to what I am talking about, but still with right-wing ideas. I see this as a possible passing point through which we may be getting to my ideal society. Competition and social hierarchies are necessary in early stages of any society, but it's something that always enslaves people, making any such society a jungle which we strive to escape, and so once it is possible to break free from competition/capitalism and the survival of the fittest -- a near future hopefully -- I believe we will want to do it, and continue the development of out society in a different way. More and more people using permissive licenses, and even voluntarily giving up the "protection" of law with waivers such as CC0, is in my opinion a first sign of this starting to happen.
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Re: Some license discussion (Some new libre games I've found

Postby fluffrabbit » 21 Apr 2019, 19:01

@drummyfish- I am open to the idea of an ideal society, but I'm not biologically ready for what you propose. You talk about it like it's a science, but it sounds more like Vulcan logic to me.

Competition and social hierarchies are necessary in early stages of any society, but it's something that always enslaves people, making any such society a jungle which we strive to escape, and so once it is possible to break free from competition/capitalism and the survival of the fittest

That jungle society sounds ideal to me. Too bad I'm already surrounded by socialists and religious communalists IRL.
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Re: Some license discussion (Some new libre games I've found

Postby drummyfish » 21 Apr 2019, 20:10

@fluffrabit the ideal is a far, far future, and most people nowadays aren't ready for it, and that is okay, because we live for a very short time -- you'll get to live your whole life in the current world. But objectively speaking, even if it sounds Vulkan or alien to you and me, I can see no other option for the future, if it is to be a bright one -- letting the world evolve in the current direction very clearly leads to a destruction and suffering -- be it climate change, economical collapse, technological collapse due to an unhealthy dependence on it, enslavement via technology, destruction by nuclear weapons etc. -- supranational companies and other big negative forces are already starting to get stronger than the protective mechanisms meant to contain them, such as governments, which are becoming just their tools -- a change of direction is needed. I know I won't live nearly long enough to see my ideal implemented, but if I can help to steer the direction and see the first signs of replacing capitalism with something better, I'll die a happy man. So don't worry, I am not hoping to significantly change the world you live in -- as I say, I oppose the idea of communist (or any) revolution -- I don't want to pose this threat. I am trying to contribute to a change of the world of our future successors. This kind of long-term thinking, even beyond one's lifetime, is also what I am hoping to see in more people as our intellect and education improves. If we want this to happen, we have to start with ourselves.
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Re: Some license discussion (Some new libre games I've found

Postby fluffrabbit » 21 Apr 2019, 20:27

There is also the possibility of a technological singularity well within our lifetimes, and that itself would radically alter day-to-day life, so I don't know what plans would make sense after that, if such an event is to take place.
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Re: Some license discussion (Some new libre games I've found

Postby Julius » 21 Apr 2019, 20:43

fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:There is also the possibility of a technological singularity well within our lifetimes, and that itself would radically alter day-to-day life, so I don't know what plans would make sense after that, if such an event is to take place.


Yeah, possible... but it's much more likely (almost certain) that we will see a collapse of civilisation in large parts of the world within our live times due to climate change. But sadly very difficult to make plans for that eventuality either :(
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Re: Some license discussion (Some new libre games I've found

Postby fluffrabbit » 21 Apr 2019, 20:54

Well, either we'll all live in inflatable bubbles at the farthest corners of the globe to escape lethal levels of pollution, or we'll all be jacked into an all-consuming technological experience. I think an increase in flooding is certainly a credible prediction, as is stronger AI, but the more dystopian predictions sound a little too far-out for me. I'm not saying I wouldn't enjoy us all being techno-slaves in a Zardozesque wasteland, I would certainly like to help us along that path if possible, but it's not something I see for the next 10 years.
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