0.4.x discussion

[amuzen]

0.4.0 has been released. Quite a lot of improvements and new features in the traditional unpolished pre-alpha wrapping. The blog post has a video and other semi-useful information so check it out.

Like before, we're open to feedback so if you have any thoughts or ideas, let us hear them. Since we focus on features during pre-alpha, we especially value feature requests or other more generic ideas and feedback.

[Julius]

Ahh nearly missed that... I guess we should mention that in a FG blog-post... maybe later today.

[teique]

Hi!

Your game is very interesting (worth playing),
here my thoughts:

GOOD THINGS:
+ (huge) the cubic destructible/constructible was very well done, it is not 100% cubic, it has natural rock deformations what is awesome!
+ (huge) the skill system is amazing, we can "mod" our self becoming more capable to current tasks!

REQUESTS:
- (huge) what about ragdolls?
- (big) there is no pause button when you are playing localhost alone! , we have to quit, loosing our position while attending to irl house events :> (a cheap *single player* portal to initial spot could solve that also).
- (normal) we could have some way to destroy items; I would keep all clean to prevent lag!
- (normal) the 3rd person camera is a bit right sides, we could optionally center it; but to see objects in front, the model could become transparent, we could set the transparency level (despite this can confuse and make players think they are invisible to mobs, when they are not..); another way is the cam to look from above the model;
- (normal) the see distance from torch is too low, we could have lanterns? I have been creating and dropping torches all around.
- (normal) could we throw items? (mainly torches)
- (normal) could we drag objects/deadMobs?
- (normal) could we crouch to be able to move inside 1x1 square, like a small tunel?
- (normal) survival approach, have to eat, to drink water, to bath, to sleep, to wash clothes etc. hehehe (drink, food and sleep would be enough btw )
- (normal) town blocks should have an alert attached to them, destroying them or just hitting them would call guards attention. After you grief (and get punished), a town builder could come and rebuild it!
- (normal) there could have an item highlighter (instead of just its name above) while aiming it. Some times it gets hard to distinguish in a crowd of items.
- (minor) some kind of check could be made to let "floating rocks" fall to the ground, I mean, they have no support to stay in that position; it is not like a cave ceiling that have walls to support it.
- (minor) when getting tree logs, it is slow to crouch to get each one, may be auto add to inventory like rocks? or we could have a key to crouch and not have the crouch delay animation? or we could, while crouched, auto pickup any items we touch but only if we are holding the pickup key.. mmm... .
- (minor) the skin could be lighter? I like cyan color , but I can get only dark cyan.
- (minor) where is the sun? and the moon?

PROBLEMS: (do you think there could have more low priority threads to handle what can be slowing down the game? btw I played only localhost)
- (huge) for some reason the game slows to a crawl, becoming completely unplayable, after I go down somewhat, my 90fps go to 7fps, no idea why. but if I quit and start, it is fast again, but as we begin at top, that can be the reason (away from what is causing lag).
- (big) sometimes the game gets really slow, I think it is when we put the logs on the workbench and it shows the craftables the 1st time. Also when there is some AI around, it seems to gets slow, not sure; but sometimes I fight the AI without slowdowns. The other time it got really slow I think I was fighting a woman that throws grenades, not sure...; after the slowdowns begin, no matter how much I wait it does not get faster.
- (big) when falling, if you touch a wall and keep moving to it, you dont take fall damage.
- (normal) climb is not working? I saw no wall ladders btw, neither ropes.
- (normal) no matter what I do I cant login to the servers, so I have to play localhostly only..
- (normal) it is not saving all the keys configurations, I use KEYPAD_MINUS to open inventory; I use KEPPAD_ENTER to jump (I am mouse left handed...)
- (normal) the rogue hit me 2 or 3 times and stopped attacking me; I was below him one square; can be that?
- (normal) the mouse aiming is not precise, it is smooth, can it be optionally precise?
- (minor) the model feet does not touch the ground, it is somewhat above.

Btw, I used to be a C++ programmer. Now I only code in java (and bash script ), but if you think I could help in improving something, just say so, I can take a look on it, unfortunately my vacations are ending D:, , so less time "to work" on everything that is fun

PS.: if I see/remember more stuff, I will post again on them; thx for creating it!

[TheAncientGoat]

Hey Teique, thanks for the feedback! Glad you enjoyed the game

I presume you played the release? We develop rather fast, so some of the things you've talked about have already been taken care of (for example, picking things up is faster)

Regarding problems:
Lag is hard to pin down for the developers, we have pretty fast machines. We'd appreciate help of course, anyone who is good at profiling can help
Climbing works, it's just climbing up 1 or 2 tiles without jumping. It helps a lot, because you can get even higher up when jumping/grabbing on to ledges. Ropes + ladders are a good idea though!
There are only development version servers, so you can't connect to them with a release version (there aren't people playing on them anyhow )
Mouse aiming is pretty bad, it's something we need to work on. In first person it's pretty ok though (but not for projectiles so much)
I die enough from falling already, fixing that will infuriate me even more :P
The key issue is pretty wierd, will look into it..

Regarding ideas:
Ragdolls : not until we finalize player models, and even then, it's far down the priority list
Pause is a good idea, shouldn't be too hard to do either.
Third person camera can maybe be user set? Not a priority though
We need more light, lanterns are a good idea. Also, regarding sun/moon, it's underground! We will have some kind of time based lighting though
Dragging mobs is a pretty good idea, might be hard to do though.
Crouching: You'd have to crawl. Not a bad idea though, but animating it will be quite a bit of work
Survival: I've suggested that before, I'd still like to see it implemented.
Item highlight: good idea!
Town alert: Yes, we need something like that. I'd like to have area "deeds" as well, sothat players can own areas and not have it griefed.
Blocks falling: That is a /major/ feature. Ideally, should be done, but so hard
Skin colors: should be able to achieve any color in the current config. Could use a different color picker though

[teique]

haha ok, there could have a grappling hook then, for the physical way; and a leaf falling spell for the magic way

another thing is that the climbing could be automatic, if you keep moving forward and do not advance, the climbing would be activated; you know, for a better action approach it could be considered as a natural thing; anyway I still have to try it, as I havent seen it working yet.

btw, I couldnt find a nightly build url? I saw the git, I am on Ubuntu, I am thinking on going for it; I will have to use eclipse C++ I think; what IDE do you use to prepare the ubuntu package? (I havent either tried yet anyway.. let me see...)

obs.: I use a monocore, 4 (or 5) years old machine, with a geforce gts 250 (as I remember, not new either); thats why I got stuck on performance . I should buy a new one but I am too lazy to research all specs, and check all problems ppl are having with their hardware.. bla bla.. I like to buy good hardware piece by piece, but that demands time :/

[TheAncientGoat]

We don't have a nightly build, it takes long for Launchpad to build for some reason.

You don't need an IDE to build software Lips of Suna uses the Waf build system, all you need to do to compile it is to grab the source, install the dependencies, and run ./waf in the source directory (there's a guide here: http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/lipsof ... /Compiling )

I also want a grappling hook! But it's a tad difficult to implement, heh. Magic would be easier, though, I'll kick the smart dev to look into it :P

Climbing being automatic is an idea, but it might slow things down a bit. Also, I feel it adds a bit of skill to moving around, you can really pull off some assassins creed type stuff at the moment

[teique]

I grabbed it thru git yesterday! added a few "-dev" packages on ubuntu and it compiled great!

The pickup items is working great, you kept the animation but we can pick in our speed, very good!

I noticed several improvements in the character creation, much more options! I just miss to have our previous config restored, I keep selecting the same style, so, after it dies sometimes, I just randomize until it is near what I like and do few adjustments only.

The quick key binding to spell Travel (and some others) seems broken, I know it can be related to other developments ongoing, just to point it out, as I dont know other way to cast it...

Despite I like to use it a lot, as the game is still alpha, I dont think it should be fixed/balanced right now...; it is like a cheat; you create a 10 explosive arrows (btw they dont seem to explode?), and you can buy almost anything with it at the merchant; but for quick play testing it works great.

the new uncluttering conversation mode is very good, I got 10 seconds to get used to it and forget the previous one . I wonder tho if the words could appear above the head of who is speaking, can be interesting

I try to use the same config always: to carry more weight I put max strengh; to fall farer and live longer I put health in max; and I leave int and will in about 20 for minimum usefull spells; other stats are zeroed; To cope with that, we could have boost potions that boost our other stats; they would be relative to our stats, not giving more than it; so a weak would give +30% on the stat, or stats related to a kind of activity, like ranged weapons attack (a strong could give like 90% not max, so even if you drink a weak potion, if you are at 80% your stat, it would add only 10%); and the potion (strong or weak) could have a lasting time; a small potion would last for 10 seconds, medium 25, big 40, and a huge for 1 minute; they should be rare to buy, but could be crafted;

btw, I remember having killed a dragon with a musket and it didnt even try to attack.. I was on a lower place with no land connection.

I still cant find berries to harvest

haha sure, I also see that on urban terror also, like wall jumps etc.. I just saw how climbing works fine already! I think these action stuff are not so necessary, they change too much the game mechanics..

[TheAncientGoat]

Also, if you pull again, you'll see we have item highlighting now, and a new spell that you control with your mouse

Saving character configs is a cool idea as well.

Crafting prices/stuff will be fixed. It's a very temporary solution currently.

I also think having the conversation stuff pop above the head of the talking npc is a good idea, that way you can have multiple NPC's talk at once, and have NPC's talk without /you/ talking to them.

Potions altering stats: I've also requested that. Note though, that you can change stats in-game as much as you want.

Nothing drops berries currently, I think.

I think action elements are good though, they /are/ the game mechanics and it brings an element of skill into the game

[Millz]

hey,

really like what you guys got so far, thought I might lend a hand on the graphics side.

I've read through the wiki and have the blender exporter working*i hope *. where do I go from there?

[amuzen]

There's a small task list in the wiki and in general you can create graphics for things that have placeholders in-game. Out of 3D graphics, we badly need things like architecture, plants, items and monsters. Static models might be a good way to get started since there are very few differences to the usual Blender modeling workflow.

I think that one problem you're likely to encounter is that we hardly have any concept art currently. For plants you can generally use photos as a reference but other things, especially monsters, are a pain without concepts in my experience. If you can't draw concepts yourself but need them for specific things, I can try to draw them on request.

If possible, join our IRC channel (#lipsofsuna at freenode). We have a couple of modelers in the channel so you can ask for help, share tips, coordinate collaboration and get feedback there.

[fraang]

I have a small/easy-to-do improvement too: Can you add some kind of description of the items into the tooltip in the inventory? It is not always easy to determine the use of items. What can I do with a jar?

For example:
Stone mattock
Is used to mine materials from the surroundings like soil chunk or granite stone.

Soil chunk
Is used to build and flatten ways in the caves.

Granite stone
Is used to craft items like stone mattocks or stone daggers.

I hope this descriptions are correct.

[TheAncientGoat]

Hi Fraang, good idea! I'm adding descriptions as we speak. We already have a few, but there's a lot of items, and adding descriptions to all of them is a lot of work

Millz: Hi, it would be awesome if you could help us out! Please join the IRC channel, it's easier to communicate there (also, don't miss Nekotaku's message here, he's the boss )

[fraang]

Cool. Thx for your hard work.

[shazzner]

Awesome stuff so far! Didn't get to play with some of the deeper mechanics or explore too deep unfortunately, but from what I saw this has a ton of potential.

Some issues I had:
- My computer nearly froze a few times, usually looking through windows or down the caves
- There was some rainbow-colored tiles around the town that seem to act as lava (almost died). Not sure if it's a texture glitch but seemed weird
- Jumping feels floaty. I'm not sure if there is double-jumping, but going up an incline it seems like my character almost hovered
- Animation looks really weird (I assume it's just a place holder)
Some ideas though:
- Towns should have some light, currently is seems everyone sits around in the total darkness.
- Default character models are terrifying. I understand they are place holders, but those dead eyes along with the bizarre proportions...

As for the general look and feel of I have some ideas: This is entirely my opinion, but if you're going with the anime look, might I suggest something akin to Persona/Megaten artist: Kazuma Kaneko. It's a little more grounded along with retaining some style. Baroque is another game I played with interesting style, especially the monsters. It's harder to do with a game like this, but more exotic locales than just cave/rock. Perhaps metal blocks to create labs/cities or more foliage to create underground forests, etc. I know this is all extremely easier said than done, and really depends on what kind of artists are willing to volunteer, but I think it would make it visually distinguishable and interesting.

[Millz]

Snip.

yeah I know what you mean, but I think the wiki has enough details to suffice until more concept art is made. however, any concept art could be greatly appreciated, but don't go out of your way.

I'll get started on one of the statics *maybe a furnace if that's not being worked on*. we should probably make a thread for members to submit,criticize and disuss art/3d assets, just to keep the clutter down in other threads.

[TheAncientGoat]

Awesome stuff so far! Didn't get to play with some of the deeper mechanics or explore too deep unfortunately, but from what I saw this has a ton of potential.

Some issues I had:
- My computer nearly froze a few times, usually looking through windows or down the caves
- There was some rainbow-colored tiles around the town that seem to act as lava (almost died). Not sure if it's a texture glitch but seemed weird
- Jumping feels floaty. I'm not sure if there is double-jumping, but going up an incline it seems like my character almost hovered
- Animation looks really weird (I assume it's just a place holder)
Some ideas though:
- Towns should have some light, currently is seems everyone sits around in the total darkness.
- Default character models are terrifying. I understand they are place holders, but those dead eyes along with the bizarre proportions...

As for the general look and feel of I have some ideas: This is entirely my opinion, but if you're going with the anime look, might I suggest something akin to Persona/Megaten artist: Kazuma Kaneko. It's a little more grounded along with retaining some style. Baroque is another game I played with interesting style, especially the monsters. It's harder to do with a game like this, but more exotic locales than just cave/rock. Perhaps metal blocks to create labs/cities or more foliage to create underground forests, etc. I know this is all extremely easier said than done, and really depends on what kind of artists are willing to volunteer, but I think it would make it visually distinguishable and interesting.

Hey Shazzner, thanks for trying the game!

Slowdowns are an issue, we need to look into it. Unfortunately, the engine dev has a beast of a machine so he doesn't experience them often
Rainbow colored tiles: Happens when you run with a card that only supports OpenGL 2. We still need to improve that rendering code, but yeah, they're either water or lave
I agree with jumping floatyness, it's been an issue for a while. /glares at nekotaku/
Animations are hard! It's constantly work in progress, so there's still work that will go into it.
+1 to needing lights, I'll see if I can implement it in some hackish way myself.
Presets to character types will also come, and that should help. Eye rendering is also kind of broken on OpenGL2

We already sort of have underground forests, hehe.. But yes, they don't quite feel that way. The terrain generator still needs a lot of love.. Sigh, so much work!

But thanks for the feedback anyhow

[patlefort]

Here's a few suggestions and comments:

- Remove or make the mouse smoothing configurable. I promptly removed it from the source code and it made aiming and navigating around much easier.
- Add an option for invert mouse (invert the up and down axis). Easy and it make or break a game for many players.
- Our character glides too much, it feels like we are walking on ice.
- Right outside the mini starting town is a huge mess of random blocks, I wasn't sure if it was normal or a bug. I assume that it has yet to be worked on.
- Being able to close a window with the same button used to open it. Like pressing 'i' to open your inventory and pressing 'i' again to close it. Old EQ/WoW habit

Keep up the good work

[amuzen]

Thanks for your suggestions. Sliding has already been addressed and I just committed support for mouse inverting, disabling mouse smoothing and hotkeys closing their windows. I have been working on better terrain as well but it's unclear whether it'll make it into the next release.