0.2.x release announcements and discussion

[Carver413]

Ok then I'm going to dig around a bit and see what I can figure out on my own. I know your busy and I wouldn't want to delay the release. I think I might enjoy this project.

[amuzen]

0.2.1 has been released. As discussed in the blog post, development has been very smooth lately. The low level stuff is in a good shape so we can focus on the actual gameplay and content and, more importantly, there are two active developers now so development is even more fun and productive than before.

Feel free to post feedback, questions, or anything else related to the new release here. Feedback on performance and how easy the new user interface is to learn and use would be particularly useful to us. Hearing some thoughts on what things we should prioritize in the next releases would be nice too.

[TheAncientGoat]

I would almost suggest making a new thread for this, it's a pretty major improvement playability wise...

[Carver413]

I would try out this new version if someone would tell me how to remove the old version. I'm using linux and still quite a bit of a noob when it come's to linux.

[amuzen]

I would try out this new version if someone would tell me how to remove the old version. I'm using linux and still quite a bit of a noob when it come's to linux.

If you're using the Ubuntu package from the PPA, you can upgrade the game with Update Manager (or apt-get). If you have automatic updates enabled, the game might have been upgraded already. There should be a Lips of Suna menu item in the Games menu when 0.2.1 has been installed.

[Carver413]

That worked. The frame rate is up to 35 from 18 that's a definite improvement, the inventory is shaping up nicely. there are a few quirks here and there but I'm sure your aware of that. the attack sound is a bit annoying. at least on my headphones, perhaps if you decrease the volume of it a bit. the ai clearly have the advantage at this point I haven't managed to make it very far down without getting killed.

[ad_user]

I dont't want to create new topic, post here.

There is a summary about new feature requests/wishes from other sites.
Sources of collected information: first fifteen pages from google://"Lips Of Suna".
But, regrettably, i have seen live discussion with lot of comments only in three sites. So, maybe first part has nothing new for you.

1. You can try to add a bit of horror and mystics in gameplay.
Exactly "a bit", no more. Dragon near portal as example for this. When he suddenly stepped from the darkness, he made me jump back from monitor.

2. Usefull hotkeys (and it's rebind (in distant future) not only in config).
For example, most usefull will be combination to swap last used items in hand. (mattock <> weapon)

3. Game console. (if it's possible at all)
For easier debug and development.

4. Priority for gameplay, not graphics.

5. Vexed question - OpenGL requirements.
But, i've already know your answer.

6. More model animation, and fix existing.
(For example: animation for taking something from the ground. I think it can de replaced with "knelt down" like or some.)


From me personally, I would add the following. Big changes first.

1. I propose to change camera behaviour from fixed-behind and give control of camera to player.
Why: i see strange camera behaviour, when climbing or when walking near walls, trees, etc. It looks like rapid zoom in/out, falling and watching through the floor/wall.
As i see it: camera controlled by mouse and moves around the player inside some invisible sphere with center on player. Distance to player (zoom in/out) controlled by mouse wheel or +/- on keyboard. Player movements: W/S - forward/backward and A/D - for left/right turns. Optionally - use A/D for strafe, but it's not first person shooter.
Cursor to interact with objects stays the same as now, but behaviour of model needs to be changed to sequent turn-and-then-interact, instead existing time-continuous-turn behaviour.

2. Following point - my IMHO at whole. I'm even not sure, that it will be more intresting to player, that existing system.

Geological system: more realistic. (Not so complicated as in Dwarf fortress, but still)
For example, "Granite" -> "iron ingot" transormation impossible in real world. It requires tons of work, but, if you consider it intresting, i can work on this.

I propose the following classes of rocks (as example - for dungeon theme):
* granite (mainly as simple build blocks)
* flint
* hematite (ex ferrostone)
* coal
* adamantium - (let it be, it's fantasy, finally)
also maybe:
* clay (mainly, as building blocks near "surface")
* pyrite (in addition to hematite)
All classes of rocks can be used in crafting. Of course, other themes can be expanded accordingly.

How this may works (with items from other themes):
- flint -> arrowhead
- flint + log -> arrow
- flint + log (x 2) -> spear
- granite + log -> stone club/hammer/axe
- hematite + coal -> iron ingot
- clay + coal -> pottle/grenade cover
- glass ingot + coal -> pottle/grenade cover
- pyrite + coal -> sulfur powder + iron ingot (fuzzy process)
- grenade cover + sulfur powder + coal -> grenade (+flint or some spell to explode it)
(in various proportions gives smoke/tear/flash grenade)
- grenade cover + crimson ore + coal -> explosive grenade
- coal + iron ingot -> (steel) weapon, armor, etc
- (many) coal + crimson ore + adamantium -> extra strong weapon, armor, etc
(as it considers almost indestructible in solid-state)
... and so on.

So it gives us the following row of materials (by durability): (stone < flint < [iron < steel] < ... < adamantium)


Well, and few small changes:

* limit depth level of nested containers, to exclude "chest-in-chest" hack
inventory->workbench->chest->chest->4 items gives us 4x4x4x4x20 = 5120 items approx.

* Torch - not the only source of light, it can be done by magic too.
And maybe add all of them some time limit, 10 minutes, for example.

* Objects weights. Currently, all models from small rat to big wooden
chest as light as a feather.

* Also, note about following: Current situation makes us replay all game from start.
So, without map regeneration, we have the following:
1st time: All normal, many monsters, npc's, loot, trees, ...
2nd and later times: we lose all items, we had collected earlier and got the same map, as in first time, but except, that all items already were collected, usefull ore/rocks were excavated, trees were cut down, and map full of monsters. (surprise!)
I see two ways how to avoid this: either save all items we have collected first time, or global map should be regenerated, if main character was changed.
In first way - items should stay in place of death previous character. (or maybe - divided between NPC's near this place).

If I'll something else to remember - i'll append it to this post.

[TheAncientGoat]

Nice, thoughtful post there ad, good to have some quality feedback, I'm sure Nekotaku will take it to mind

[amuzen]

Thank you, this is really great feedback.

1. You can try to add a bit of horror and mystics in gameplay.
Exactly "a bit", no more. Dragon near portal as example for this. When he suddenly stepped from the darkness, he made me jump back from monitor.

Improving the mood of the game is a challenging task that requires solid quality in all areas of the game. We don't yet have all the necessary tools and technology to bring the map to the point that it can immerse you. Graphics are getting there slowly but what's particularly problematic is that we don't have an active sound engineer. Good sound effects could do wonders but most of the effects we currently have are placeholders. All in all, the mood will take quite a lot of time but we'll get it right eventually.

2. Usefull hotkeys (and it's rebind (in distant future) not only in config).
For example, most usefull will be combination to swap last used items in hand. (mattock <> weapon)

You can sort of do this already by dragging items to quickslots, though it's very hard to figure out without there being any visual cues. Making it more usable is high in my priority list so there should at least be 12 usable, predefined hotkeys available soon. Customizable key bindings will take longer since it's lots of work and not that useful right now.

3. Game console. (if it's possible at all)
For easier debug and development.

There are some developer tools that might eventually evolve to a console. It's not a high priority, though, because we already have enough to be able to create and test new content.

4. Priority for gameplay, not graphics.

Yet half of people complain about graphics.

I agree, though, and I tend to spend most of the time working on gameplay features so I guess we're doing fine. However, advancing graphics is important as well since without them you can't distinguish things and the mood suffers from poor models and animations. I think all aspects of the game should get some love and progress approximately at the same pace.

1. I propose to change camera behaviour from fixed-behind and give control of camera to player.
Why: i see strange camera behaviour, when climbing or when walking near walls, trees, etc. It looks like rapid zoom in/out, falling and watching through the floor/wall.
As i see it: camera controlled by mouse and moves around the player inside some invisible sphere with center on player. Distance to player (zoom in/out) controlled by mouse wheel or +/- on keyboard. Player movements: W/S - forward/backward and A/D - for left/right turns. Optionally - use A/D for strafe, but it's not first person shooter.
Cursor to interact with objects stays the same as now, but behaviour of model needs to be changed to sequent turn-and-then-interact, instead existing time-continuous-turn behaviour.

The camera needs improvements but this isn't going to fix it exactly. It'll suffer from the same problems as the current camera in narrow corridors, except that you won't be facing to the same direction with the character. You won't see anything but walls or floor most of the time unless you keep manually micromanaging the camera all the time. I also think that turning and tilting with keyboard controls is a bad idea. It's slow, inaccurate, and you'll need so many keys that it'll get too confusing.

I think the camera should rather automatically switch to the first person mode if there isn't enough room. It should also try to soften the motion when it comes to a contact with a wall. The way how it currently handles wall contacts is very simplistic as it doesn't try to reduce the jumpiness at all. It can be made a bit better, though I'm quite certain that no third person camera will work flawlessly in all the situations there are. That's why the first person camera mode exists.

Geological system: more realistic. (Not so complicated as in Dwarf fortress, but still)
For example, "Granite" -> "iron ingot" transormation impossible in real world. It requires tons of work, but, if you consider it intresting, i can work on this.

I propose the following classes of rocks (as example - for dungeon theme):
* granite (mainly as simple build blocks)
* flint
* hematite (ex ferrostone)
* coal
* adamantium - (let it be, it's fantasy, finally)
also maybe:
* clay (mainly, as building blocks near "surface")
* pyrite (in addition to hematite)
All classes of rocks can be used in crafting. Of course, other themes can be expanded accordingly.

How this may works (with items from other themes):
- flint -> arrowhead
- flint + log -> arrow
- flint + log (x 2) -> spear
- granite + log -> stone club/hammer/axe
- hematite + coal -> iron ingot
- clay + coal -> pottle/grenade cover
- glass ingot + coal -> pottle/grenade cover
- pyrite + coal -> sulfur powder + iron ingot (fuzzy process)
- grenade cover + sulfur powder + coal -> grenade (+flint or some spell to explode it)
(in various proportions gives smoke/tear/flash grenade)
- grenade cover + crimson ore + coal -> explosive grenade
- coal + iron ingot -> (steel) weapon, armor, etc
- (many) coal + crimson ore + adamantium -> extra strong weapon, armor, etc
(as it considers almost indestructible in solid-state)
... and so on.

So it gives us the following row of materials (by durability): (stone < flint < [iron < steel] < ... < adamantium)

This sounds very interesting and comprehensive. I'd certainly like to see something like this to get implemented. I won't be able to do it myself right now since I'm stuck working on map editing and I have a couple of other big tasks queued. If you or someone else is interested in working on this, take a look at data/lipsofsuna/scripts/content/materials.lua and data/lipsofsuna/scripts/content/items.lua. You should get pretty far by modifying those two.

* Also, note about following: Current situation makes us replay all game from start.
So, without map regeneration, we have the following:
1st time: All normal, many monsters, npc's, loot, trees, ...
2nd and later times: we lose all items, we had collected earlier and got the same map, as in first time, but except, that all items already were collected, usefull ore/rocks were excavated, trees were cut down, and map full of monsters. (surprise!)
I see two ways how to avoid this: either save all items we have collected first time, or global map should be regenerated, if main character was changed.
In first way - items should stay in place of death previous character. (or maybe - divided between NPC's near this place).

This is a known problem that has been ignored for now because it has strong ties to the multiplayer nature of the game. Since the game is multiplayer, completely regenerating the map when one player logs out or dies isn't an option so the player characters need to be saved. However, since there can be multiple players, a login scheme and account management is needed. Those haven't been implemented yet.

I originally intended to implement account management much later but the gameplay has improved much faster than I expected. Two releases ago there wasn't anything worth keeping across sessions but losing items has certainly become a concern now. I'll see if I can get player accounts implemented in either this or the next release cycle.

[KroArtem]

Кхм, ad_user, половина информации из темы с лора? Если да, то всю полезную информацию я оттуда уже сказал nekotaku Просто я так подумал, потому что 'можно добавить в игру немного хоррора и мистики' было первым, что я перевел ему несколько дней назад.
nekotaku: sorry for writing here in Russian.