Why is there no 1st or 3rd person classic FOSS RPG?

Re: Why is there no 1st or 3rd person classic FOSS RPG?

Postby charlie » 30 Jan 2013, 02:45

mdwh {l Wrote}:I recently came across http://sourceforge.net/projects/scourge/ , which is a 3rd person 3D RPG.

https://bitbucket.org/uzudil/scourge2
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Re: Why is there no 1st or 3rd person classic FOSS RPG?

Postby qubodup » 30 Jan 2013, 16:41

I would call scourge 1 more of a isometric rpg.

Both scourge1 and scourge2 are inactive development-wise.
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Re: Why is there no 1st or 3rd person classic FOSS RPG?

Postby CyberKlown28 » 15 Apr 2013, 20:19

I always thought the cube 2 engine would be good for a first-person dungeon crawler. It has single player monsters in sauer, and people could easily create more dungeons to go through. A story line of unlocking the next 'dungeon' could end up being a lengthy rpg.
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Re: Why is there no 1st or 3rd person classic FOSS RPG?

Postby cdxbow » 17 Aug 2013, 03:16

I would love to do a cube2 based RPG, I always thought Rebel Mars would be done as such. Unfortunately not much progress has happened with making an RPG and any of the cube flavours. Eisenstern is dead. I was hoping we would have made progress with adding SP and even RPG with MekArcade (based on RE) but we have not. Perhaps Octaforge will be able to produce a Cube RPG.

In the past 4 months we have we have built up quite a collection of character models including humans, androids, robots and naturally, meks. I was looking at all the characters and realised that I had everything I needed modelling wise for Rebel Mars, except for the quadruped Martian troopers. I even have domes, rovers, spacecraft and other Martian related models. So I started thinking about how to go about it. What engine to use? What would be the 'best' engine to base a 3D RPG? A modern SciFi RPG, capable of FPS action. So I wrote a list:

1. Easy to use for a mug like me - no C code, but robust scripting
2. Cross platform - minimum windows, mac and nix, tablets would be wonderful, and 'in browser' is another option
3. Lots of resources (example code, maps & model, manual & help, active forums, helpful people)
4. Tool chain that works with current models (current misfit/md5 can be converted to smd, iqm, max, milkshape etc)
5. Stable and reasonable performance
6. Game freely distributable
7. FOSS - Preferred but may have to be optional. Is there anything Fossy that could do this? This thread suggest not. In which case I would, sadly, have to look at a commercial engine, that allows a freely distributable games.

Suggestions & comments please.
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Re: Why is there no 1st or 3rd person classic FOSS RPG?

Postby Evropi » 17 Aug 2013, 14:37

cdxbow {l Wrote}:1. Easy to use for a mug like me - no C code, but robust scripting
2. Cross platform - minimum windows, mac and nix, tablets would be wonderful, and 'in browser' is another option
3. Lots of resources (example code, maps & model, manual & help, active forums, helpful people)
4. Tool chain that works with current models (current misfit/md5 can be converted to smd, iqm, max, milkshape etc)
5. Stable and reasonable performance
6. Game freely distributable
7. FOSS - Preferred but may have to be optional. Is there anything Fossy that could do this? This thread suggest not. In which case I would, sadly, have to look at a commercial engine, that allows a freely distributable games.

Suggestions & comments please.

You pretty much just described Octaforge, a Tesseract (successor to Cube 2) fork by q66. :)
It has Lua scripting support. It has the world's easiest (but also very powerful) map editor, which allows games with tiny communities like Red Eclipse have a large assortment of high-quality maps. This would allow you to make lots of content for your RPG, and fast. Also, while it was removed for a while, CubeScript is back! That said, it has its own widget set that uses Lua and CubeScript will be relegated to module status eventually. It has the on-the-fly scripting support that I'm sure you're familiar with (comes with tab completion too!) Finally, the Tesseract engine produces graphics that can compete with the Unreal Engine 3 -- and with much higher performance at that.

It fails on the "stable" part of your 5th requirement, but you know what Cube 2's performance is like (flippin' brilliant!). It fails much more greatly on the 3rd requirement... there is next to no documentation besides q66 himself and other people involved with Tesseract or the Cube 2 engine. It's FOSS with a permissive license and can take IQM and MD5 models.

I'd also ask Hirato, who has a fork of Tesseract (Lamiae) that makes it into an RPG game engine... this is Tesseract, not Octaforge though, but q66 has ported some features from that into Lua. Talking of which, you should really get on #redeclipse more. :P
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Re: Why is there no 1st or 3rd person classic FOSS RPG?

Postby Julius » 17 Aug 2013, 15:19

Yes Octaforge is a great effort and I looked into it quite a bit... but it simple "is not there yet" tm.
There is hardly any pre-made game code (all of the Sauerbraten stuff was ripped out as it now needs to be coded in LUA), there are next to no art assets as a foundation yet, the GUI-system is a big "work in progress" and the multi-player support was recently overhauled and is still not fully functional.

All in all, it will be probably a great FOSS game engine in a few years, but right now it is not at the point where you can make an actual game with it. I do encurage everyone to participate in its development though, and help creating a "base game" for future FOSS modding projects.
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Re: Why is there no 1st or 3rd person classic FOSS RPG?

Postby cdxbow » 17 Aug 2013, 17:10

Julius: That looks like a detailed plan! You have obviously spent a lot of time on it. I can't help you with the code but you are welcome to use our any of our models but they look a bit different.
Isabella.jpg


Evropi & Julius: Octaforge is the only choice? As you point out, it may well be years, and I could be pushing up daisies by then. I haven't had a look at it for about 12 months, has much progressed?
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Re: Why is there no 1st or 3rd person classic FOSS RPG?

Postby Julius » 17 Aug 2013, 17:30

Well, I can't honestly judge how fast Octaforge will come to the real usability point, but right now it isn't.

But as I said, qfusion is an interesting alternative, even though it lacks an in-game editor (which could be solved by porting the one from ya3dag).

A similar story is there for Darkplaces, which could utilize the code from some old RPG quake1 mods, but it also doesn't have an in-game editor and the current state of the quakeC scripting is a big mess (but overall better than no scripting at all).

For a more Diablo like 3rd person / isometric RPG, the 0 A.D. engine could be a good choice too. Its scriptable by Javascript and the mod support is more or less there too (some small issues remain, but could probably be fixed by a coder quickly). It also has a lot of nice CC-by-SA environment assets that will still look ok when zoomed in a bit further. I guess it could be a good choice for your Mars game if you are willing to switch to a more isometric view. Oh and yes the included level editor is quite good too.

Maybe have a look at the Lips of Suna engine again... it recently added a above surface terrain system. But I can't really say anything about it's usability for projects other than LoS.
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Re: Why is there no 1st or 3rd person classic FOSS RPG?

Postby cdxbow » 18 Aug 2013, 22:43

Thanks. Stupid me, I forgot about Lamiae! I looked at it ages ago. I will download it. Do you know what state it is in?

Perhaps the target platform should be the browser via webGL? I better go to the oven and get out the banana bread.
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Re: Why is there no 1st or 3rd person classic FOSS RPG?

Postby Julius » 20 Aug 2013, 20:58

Split topic into this one where development discussion continues:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4808
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Re: Why is there no 1st or 3rd person classic FOSS RPG?

Postby jcantero » 23 Aug 2013, 19:50

Julius {l Wrote}:For a more Diablo like 3rd person / isometric RPG...

That's the goal of FLARE, it isn't?

For a 3D RPG, you can consider Ember, the 3D client of Worldforge (based on Ogre3D), too. It has "Extensive in game authoring", and seems they are working hard in the rendering engine.
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Re: Why is there no 1st or 3rd person classic FOSS RPG?

Postby Julius » 23 Aug 2013, 20:56

Well, I was actually thinking about an isometric game but rendered in 3D like most modern Diablo type of games do it. Summoning Wars would be an FOSS example of that, but development is too slow. 0 A.D. would probably be a good engine for something like that, especially if one includes a squad or tower defense element (see the recent Van Hellsing game).

Worldforge (and Ember) is really more of an MMORPG engine, or? For that Ryzom Core is also good, but game mechanics of these really differ from "proper" RPGs.
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Re: Why is there no 1st or 3rd person classic FOSS RPG?

Postby jcantero » 24 Aug 2013, 12:44

Julius {l Wrote}:Worldforge (and Ember) is really more of an MMORPG engine, or? For that Ryzom Core is also good, but game mechanics of these really differ from "proper" RPGs.

Worldforge is the name of the umbrella project of the MMORPG, Ember is the client part only. So it handles client tasks, like the GUI or the terrain manager, tasks that IMHO can have much in common with the ones in a single RPG. Let me show you a video of Ember that maybe clarifies what I am trying to say:


youtu.be/dIY6lqChfe0

Of course in a MMORPG the client takes its state from the server through the network protocol, and that code should be detached and substituted to make a single player RPG.

But I suggested Ember mainly because of the authoring tools. I remembered these videos when you mentioned content creation tools:


youtu.be/anLMkhWYpnM


youtu.be/H_9-_9FiozA


youtu.be/fXlFs28knIE

These tools are not trivial to develop, so let's take advantage of them. With these type of tools it's possible to participate in the content creation of a RPG even with non-technical (or little technical) knowledge.
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Re: Why is there no 1st or 3rd person classic FOSS RPG?

Postby Julius » 24 Aug 2013, 18:16

You are right, it might make for a good basis too, but the core gameplay would need to be changed a lot (MMORPGs are really not realtime combat oriented, which is at least for me one of the big negative points of them that make them appear so sluggish and boring).
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Re: Why is there no 1st or 3rd person classic FOSS RPG?

Postby rogerdv » 16 Sep 2013, 19:54

First and third person view requires some quality models. You can find 2-3 coders, but it is 100 times harder to get one artist. Thats why I prefer isometric like view for my project (from a distance everything looks well), even when I would like to do some 3rd person game. Currently, 2 projects are being developed using the new Lime engine: mine (isometric), and one by the author, which is 3rd person, but that one wont be FOSS.
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Re: Why is there no 1st or 3rd person classic FOSS RPG?

Postby Taknamay » 24 Nov 2013, 17:56

I am looking forward to the OpenMW engine. The team is making a lot of progress on the engine, and the Construction Set is starting to see some major work. Look at the huge modding community around the Elder Scrolls, I am sure once it is complete a free total conversion will be done in no time.
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Re: Why is there no 1st or 3rd person classic FOSS RPG?

Postby shirish » 09 Jul 2014, 07:24

sorry for dredging open an old thread but it seemed fascinating to see the discussion. I had not played 'Amulets and Armor' and just came to know that there seems to have been some sort of community built around the game . See http://amuletsandarmor.com/ . They even seemed to have a new version for people to play on MS-Windows http://amuletsandarmor.com/download/AAC ... indows.zip

Hard luck though, no GNU/Linux version yet :(
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Re: Why is there no 1st or 3rd person classic FOSS RPG?

Postby Julius » 10 Jul 2014, 15:21

https://github.com/ExiguusEntertainment/AmuletsArmor (GPL)
Seems like a cool project. I wonder though why the developer doesn't just port it to some existing advanced Doom engine like Doomsday or am I missing something?
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Re: Why is there no 1st or 3rd person classic FOSS RPG?

Postby themightyglider » 01 Mar 2016, 09:51

An answer to the original question why there are no FOSS RPGs could be that there are two ways of game design.
The first is you have some mechanics you want to have inside a game. You code this mechanics and put a story on top later. (Or your game needs no story at all)
The second way is you have a story you wanna tell and just make the mechanics you need to do so.

The most libre games are made the first way I guess.
A classical RPG uses the second way. I think this is also An importent reason for so less open RPGS out there.
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Re: Why is there no 1st or 3rd person classic FOSS RPG?

Postby Taknamay » 03 Mar 2016, 01:18

themightyglider {l Wrote}:An answer to the original question why there are no FOSS RPGs could be that there are two ways of game design.
The first is you have some mechanics you want to have inside a game. You code this mechanics and put a story on top later. (Or your game needs no story at all)
The second way is you have a story you wanna tell and just make the mechanics you need to do so.

The most libre games are made the first way I guess.
A classical RPG uses the second way. I think this is also An importent reason for so less open RPGS out there.

I think once there is documentation for how to make a 100% original game in OpenMW that will overcome the problem with mechanics a bit. Then people can use it to tell their story (but they need the art still).
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Re: Why is there no 1st or 3rd person classic FOSS RPG?

Postby themightyglider » 03 Mar 2016, 05:02

I think once there is documentation for how to make a 100% original game in OpenMW that will overcome the problem with mechanics a bit. Then people can use it to tell their story (but they need the art still).


I agree.
A good free engine people can use to tell their stories coul be a solution of this problem.
If this people would overcome the art problem as well and tell a story which is a bit more interesting then the standard 'You have to save the world' plot such a game realy could be a hidden gem vor RPG fans.

But I also know that having a free engine dosn't always mean that people will use it for free games.
E.G. renpy is a open VN engine and there are almost no good free VNs aroung.
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