Dave3D Revival (Libre Assets Duke Nukem 3D)

[dupertux34]

Hello there! so there is a dead project called Dave3D which had asset replacments for duke nukem 3d's art, its svn is lost right now and i think it would be nice to revive the project, also i have way more ideas than this like a zauberer revival that has an actual iwad (its a hexen free iwad) i think a nice name would be Total Death. also this is possible because of the open source release of the duke nukem 3d source code which is under gpl :
https://github.com/videogamepreservation/dukenukem3d
(note : must be incompatible with the original game, and using a completley free engine other than eduke32 because it is non free, read buildlic.txt)

[dupertux34]

Any response?

[PeterX]

Please, be a little patient with the other forum visitors. Give them some hours or maybe some days to answer.

Personally I'm unexperienced regarding Doom etc. So I have no clue about iwad, Hexen, Zauberer etc.

Greetings
Peter

[dupertux34]

Please, be a little patient with the other forum visitors. Give them some hours or maybe some days to answer.

Personally I'm unexperienced regarding Doom etc. So I have no clue about iwad, Hexen, Zauberer etc.

Greetings
Peter

an IWAD is like where a game is stored, usually this is data for doom engine games like doom, heretic and hexen, these are paid for and because of that people wanted to make free versions of the games, like freedoom and blasphemer, however a dead project called zauberer only has textures and sprites making it NOT a game, so i wanted to maybe revive it somehow.
Thanks!
Frost

[Julius]

On the Doomsday Engine forums there were some really nice looking attempts to make assets replacements for Hexen and Heretic. Non-Libre I think though

[dupertux34]

On the Doomsday Engine forums there were some really nice looking attempts to make assets replacements for Hexen and Heretic. Non-Libre I think though

Nope, blasphemer is 3-clause bsd license, and zauberer (which is full of placeholders) is ISP License.
anyway lets focus on the build engine and stop talking about doom engine games, i think dave 3d died because of 3d realms not liking what they are doing, but i think the today 3d realms is normal.

[leilei]

Yes, it was politely C&D'd and should be considered legally destroyed. I didn't want to incur any wrath and I still wouldn't regardless of publisher shakeups and my rights with the GPL. All I can offer is advice.

Don't repeat the same mistakes. Ignore it, start anew with a better license. Do not paint by the numbers. Don't even have a D*k* like character. You're never going to be 1:1 compatible with custom maps as there's a reliance on sprite size for collision anyway. What gets a ball rolling is an .ART building pipeline and VOC conversion.... grow the art, build a room, check the .CONs for tile references, prioritize player/weapons/item before all else. A code of conduct would probably also as important, else you'll probably end up with another cursed game in the legacy of Build. Most of this can also apply to SW and Blood (nblood).

also for the sake of Free-ness don't have pop culture references. Many are fond of the original game for being that (and BOBS of course) and often forget about the weapon functions, the level design tricks, the inventory system, and some of the non-linearity in the progress. you know, the game stuff. It's mechanically similar to Heretic.

As for names, avoid the name Dave3D. It was hastily named after the other game DaveGnukem, and I didn't think of any of the unfortunate implications that came with it. Don't do "LibreNukem", "LibreDuke", "FreeDuke" etc. either, as it's essentially walking on trademarks.

Also remember, there's a bunch of other non-3DR/GB Free sources out there from the same era that could have a content project, but don't because there's no content/editing pipeline. C&C, Descent, Marathon 2, Tyrian... so the potential for the popular 1995-96 bunch remade is there. "but no more clones!!!" one would say, not thinking of the preservation aspect behind utilizing the original source, formats and target specs...

[dupertux34]

"but no more clones!!!" one would say, not thinking of the preservation aspect behind utilizing the original source, formats and target specs...

True, libre clones are for preservation, they all help the poor people and the poor country people, and they can help for giving assets for a mod of the game, i think a nice name for the project would be Total Death.

[drummyfish]

I'd love to see this but I'd also advise to make it a lot different from the original to stay legally safe. There is copyright, trademarks but also things like trade dress, it needs to be a completely different game that no one can confuse with Duke3D. The project must never rely on the original company tolerating it, it simply needs to be made so that the original company can't kill it even if it wants to. It's an opportunity to get creative. If this got some momentum I'd consider contributing maybe because I really very much love the old build engine games. Friendly reminder my Anarch "IP" is CC0 and free to use

[bzt]

I'd love to see this but I'd also advise to make it a lot different from the original to stay legally safe.

I don't think that's necessary.

As a first step, create Dave3D in a way that it's an exact copy of the Duke Nukem 3D engine and game play. This is legally perfectly safe, Linux is full with game engines that are GPL, but ship no assets (you have to copy those proprietary assets from your legally purchased version of the game). Such engines already exists, quite a lot actually, for example EDuke32.

Then, as a second step, create a replacement asset set, with libre assets only. This is also legally safe, and this asset pack then could be used with either the Dave3D engine or EDuke32 or any other engines.

Finally, do not forget that the original Duke Nukem 3D engine's source code is Open Source, released to the public in 1997 and licensed under GPL. So even if Dave3D is going to be a unique engine with it's unique asset pack that's not compatible with the original and the other engines, but copies the game play exactly, nobody has anything to say about it, that's also legally perfectly safe.

Cheers,
bzt

[drummyfish]

Oh yeah another advice I forgot to mention -- don't listen to bzt, just ignore him.

Let me know how it's going

[PeterX]

Oh yeah another advice I forgot to mention -- don't listen to bzt, just ignore him.

Well, I think it makes sense what bzt normally says, _except_ when he's talking about copyright. I think he's getting it wrong mostly.

But in this case I must admit, what he says seems correct to me.

Greetings
Peter

[dupertux34]

Remember, im giving this idea to someone else, because if its ever made ill be involved with mapping, about Magier i have not decided wherether the maps are limit removing or vanilla compatible, i'd say limit removing to make it apart from hexen.
(for total death ill use mapster32)

[phma]

This is also legally safe, and this asset pack then could be used with either the Dave3D engine or EDuke32 or any other engines.
[...]
Finally, do not forget that the original Duke Nukem 3D engine's source code is Open Source, released to the public in 1997 and licensed under GPL.

Friendly reminder to all that eduke32 is non-free, freedom-denying software:

EDuke32 is open source software that is completely free to use for all non-commercial purposes.

Specifically, it is the Build engine which forms the non-free element. For a good laugh, read the buildlic.txt file.

[dupertux34]

One technical aspect about this project is that the .CON files have copyrighted names. how can we get past that?
another thing is that we must change certain aspects of the game such as paying money to dancers, it would be helping people that are in cages that were put by the evil

[dupertux34]

Friendly reminder to all that eduke32 is non-free, freedom-denying software:

Yes, in fact gitlab says it has no license and all rights are reserved.
EDIT : its wrong, https://voidpoint.io/terminx/eduke32/-/ ... ildlic.txt, and i have this huge question :
why was eduke32 not licensed under the gpl?
EDIT 2 : aha! the build engine is not open source! its under the build license, and thats why

[leilei]

Finally, do not forget that the original Duke Nukem 3D engine's source code is Open Source, released to the public in 1997 and licensed under GPL. t

Not 1997 - April fools 2003. Apparently you were fooled, as this does not include Build.

Back then, Build licensees always only had the compiled Build library module with no source to access. The game module (Duke3D, SW) written for it is the only portion they can release under a Free license.

A game data project however, can be completely agnostic and include no engine. It'd be targeting the GPL'd game module portion only.
Until there's ever an independent, spec compatible drop-in replacement for the Build backend that's written by a bored programmer within the next 40 years, it's the best itll ever be with regards to being a standalone game.

One technical aspect about this project is that the .CON files have copyrighted names. how can we get past that?
another thing is that we must change certain aspects of the game such as paying money to dancers, it would be helping people that are in cages that were put by the evil

Altering strings to drop trademarks is essential, however, game mechanics should be safe and should be considered kept as-is for compatibility goals, even if they're horribly sexist. Another way is to genderflip/rule63 the roles and they could be notChippendales



Another thing to warn about - there WILL be that smug asshole who will bootstrap the Free data project, tack some Duke3D uprezzed addons onto it and repack it as a bootleg, go for internet clout about it and displace you.

[bzt]

Back then, Build licensees always only had the compiled Build library module with no source to access. The game module (Duke3D, SW) written for it is the only portion they can release under a Free license.

That would be in direct violation of the GPL. You cannot link GPL'd code with proprietary libraries.

Anyway, even if the original Build engine is not fully GPL'd, that does not change anything. Other FOSS licensed, full and compilable source trees did and DO exists, take a look:
https://github.com/jonof/jfduke3d (OpenGL rewrite)
https://github.com/icculus/duke3d (Linux compatible port)
https://voidpoint.io/terminx/eduke32 (the aforementioned EDuke32's repo)
...etc. etc. etc.

Take your pick, there are plenty of GPL'd Duke Nukem 3D engines to choose from.

Cheer,
bzt

[dupertux34]

https://github.com/jonof/jfduke3d (OpenGL rewrite)

Dude, its based on a BUILD port called jfbuild, and it has buildlic.txt, how is it GPL?

[Technopeasant]

I happened to come across this a month or two back while researching Open Quartz, so it is funny that this has come up again.

I would say just aim to make a generic Build engine style game, including a talking protagonist, interactivity and such like without particularly imitating any one of them. Kinda like a free Ion Fury.

Seeing how each one was based on a different film genre, maybe try one that was never made into a game?

If you are however not aiming for it to be compatible with Duke custom maps than I would heavily suggest just making a homage game in GZDoom.

[bzt]

https://github.com/jonof/jfduke3d (OpenGL rewrite)

Dude, its based on a BUILD port called jfbuild, and it has buildlic.txt, how is it GPL?

https://github.com/jonof/jfduke3d/blob/master/GPL.TXT - that's what it claims itself to be. But if you don't like this particular version for whatever reason, then just pick another one, there's plenty to choose from, for example use icculus' duke3d: https://github.com/icculus/duke3d/blob/main/LICENSE.txt

Otherwise I honestly don't understand you. The question is, do GPL'd Duke Nukem 3D engines exists? Yes, they surely do. But even if they weren't, can you use an arbitrary GPL'd FPS engine to implement Duke Nukem's gameplay on top of it? Yes you can. So what's the matter then, dude?

Cheers,
bzt

[freem]

can you use an arbitrary GPL'd FPS engine to implement Duke Nukem's gameplay on top of it? Yes you can

Well, one must be careful to choose a 3D engine that supports "sprites-as-models" for that though, otherwise there's a serious risk at ending with a more modern-looking game
As for FOSS game engines allowing to implement a 3D shooter... there's so much of those. So much of quake-derived engines, cube2, freedoom and the likes, descent engine can possibly be hacked into having some gravity...

I agree that the only thing required here is to create the content (I avoid the term asset on purpose, because content without code is useless), but it should not be considered easy. Otherwise someone would already have done it.

The graphical content itself (textures, sprites, rigged and animated models), you might find some random stuff at OGA, but: random. Can be placeholders until you can decide on an artistic line and redo all the work by yourself. Still, most of the stuff at OGA is not even rigged, so have fun. If I'm wrong, then please put a list of rigged models there (there are some, but really, few...).
Oh, to build humanoids models, there's the makehuman program. Can help to generate a good base, I think, but that's just a helper, the stuff it generates is way too detailed, and not rigged IIRC.

Then there's sound, music and... voice acting. This is likely even harder, but thankfully it's also less important to have something functional. I'd say decent voice acting is possibly the harder, this would certainly explain why almost no FOSS game I know have much of those (few games have some, but it's really some).

Last but not least, since that's one of the major parts of a game: maps and campaign.
By maps, I don't say textures or models or sprites used there: those can be placeholders, but the campaign scenario, the maps which punctuates it, with the progressive difficulty, their secret areas, their puzzles, their jokes (yes, many modern people don't like those jokes, but they're still jokes. Do you think the secret in 1st level when firing a big RPG rocket (even that weapon name feels like a joke) in the pr0n cinema screen, at *that* place is something serious?) and their place in the story.

This (about campaing and storytelling) is something which lacks in most FOSS games (outside of the RPG games). The only FOSS games which have actual stories (and lot of them, even) leading the player between maps that I know of is: wesnoth. Oh, right, Warzone2100 have one, too. But it started as non-FOSS game, people were paid to build it, because it was to be sold.
Widelands have few scenarios, but the stuff is mostly unfinished (at most 4 maps per campaign I think? And it's mostly tutorials, really). Platformer games like supertux and the likes just have an excuse, not really a story (each level don't really tell anything, sorry).
Oh, yes, there's openclonk too. But I still had to think more than few minutes to get those names.

I guess I could say weapons and inventory mechanics are also part of content, but I'm very unsure about that, since it's mostly code and balance.