Level Editor?

Level Editor?

Postby bgalon_2000 » 28 Sep 2012, 07:06

I work on Windows XP - and running version 0.4 of the game... Very nice - I like it allot and would love to create a few levels.

Mind you, the level editor just does not seem to work! f5 does not move the player, so I can't set it to a starting point. I see only two rows of tiles - no doors, switching etc, and when configuring pattern of movement for tiles, I can't seem to just end the pattern editing (escape kicks me out and no other button finish the pattern). help?
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Re: Level Editor?

Postby bgalon_2000 » 28 Sep 2012, 12:09

okay,

I managed to answer most of my own questions and it now seems to boil down to one problem. When in the editor - clicking the "add tile" button brings "toolbox" windows with two rows of possible tiles. Those are not all the tiles in the game. I now understand that I can use pageup and pagedown to rotate to those "unavilable tiles". Is there any reason why we can't see all the tiles in a bigger "toolbox" window?

G.B.
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Re: Level Editor?

Postby Edward_Lii » 28 Sep 2012, 13:20

Hello bgalon_2000,

bgalon_2000 {l Wrote}:Very nice - I like it allot and would love to create a few levels.

Thank you for playing, great to hear you like it.

bgalon_2000 {l Wrote}:Mind you, the level editor just does not seem to work!

The level editor isn't the user friendliest around, we plan on improving it and creating tutorials.

bgalon_2000 {l Wrote}:f5 does not move the player, so I can't set it to a starting point.

I understand the confusion, the F5 key is used to move the player to the cursor position during testing.

bgalon_2000 {l Wrote}:I can't seem to just end the pattern editing (escape kicks me out and no other button finish the pattern).

The path can be ended by right clicking. Originally there was only one way to create a path for the block to move along and that was right clicking on it.
So it made sense that the same mouse button would stop the editing/creating.

To extend a path you can right click the moving block again, to remove the last point in the path press 'backspace'.

bgalon_2000 {l Wrote}:Is there any reason why we can't see all the tiles in a bigger "toolbox" window?

There isn't really a particular reason other than to save screen space.
We want to keep supporting a resolution of 800x600, so we either keep it small or make its size depend on the resolution.
Note that you can change the current block by scrolling.

Anyway, the editor requires a lot of work to become more user friendly.
Your posts helps us see what really needs some care/improving.
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Re: Level Editor?

Postby bgalon_2000 » 28 Sep 2012, 14:05

Thanks for all that. Very usful. I'll be happy to help writing the "creating your first level" section of your wiki or the level editor section in general. Might help someone getting started with it - altough it is not difficult anyway.
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Re: Level Editor?

Postby Edward_Lii » 17 Oct 2012, 18:39

Hello bgalon_2000,

First of all sorry for the late reply.
bgalon_2000 {l Wrote}:I'll be happy to help writing the "creating your first level" section of your wiki or the level editor section in general. Might help someone getting started with it - altough it is not difficult anyway.

Such documentation is really needed.
Unfortunately the wiki has been down for a quite a while now so you can't write it directly on there.
But if I recall correctly there was hardly any, if none, information about the leveleditor and creating levels on the wiki.

Anyway, if you would like to write this that would be fantastic. :)
One thing to note is that things might changed, removed or added during the development of 0.5.
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New Functions in level editor

Postby bgalon_2000 » 19 Oct 2012, 09:39

I’m not sure that the level editor is the right place to put this – I do it because those are things I would like to see in the level editor – although many of this impact play as well:


1) Copy and Paste / Move – from looking quickly in the code it looks like there are copy and paste functions – how do those operate?
2) Is it possible to copy and paste / move whole sections?
3) Does (and if not – can) copy and paste /move maintain linkage (for example, if I have a lever linked to a moving block – does moving the lever to another location still maintain connection to the moving block?
4) Zoom in / Zoom out – to allow seeing more or less of the puzzle.
5) ‘And’ gates on triggers – Meaning – is we have a number of levers linked to a moving block – the block moves only when ALL the levers are ‘on’.
6) Scenery blocks – Already mentioned in a different topic – block who have no other purpose then providing scenery. This can be a single block type that when you use configuration you have to specify a file name containing an image to be displayed.
7) ‘Disappearing’ option for blocks – so when a player moves onto a trigger or move a lever, blocks “disappear” rather then move. Can make great traps and provide different routes blocking.
8) Scripting language – was mentioned somewhere else – but something that allows you to introduce some programmable behaviour will be nice – I haven’t formalized this idea but I might think about it a bit more later on.

All of the above does not impact play or introduce extra complexity. They just give more verity for the level developer.

9) I know we are trying to prevent “new kinds of blocks” that make the game more complex, but I think a push-able block will be quite good. You can push it to create stairs or drop it over edges onto the platform below. It’s just a thought.



P.S - what happend to the Wiki? Do we have a copy of it just in case?
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Re: Level Editor?

Postby Edward_Lii » 19 Oct 2012, 13:37

Hello bgalon_2000,

bgalon_2000 {l Wrote}:1) Copy and Paste / Move – from looking quickly in the code it looks like there are copy and paste functions – how do those operate?

If you have a selection you can use Ctrl+C to copy the selection.
When you press Ctrl+V the "clipboard" will be pasted at the location your cursor is.

bgalon_2000 {l Wrote}:2) Is it possible to copy and paste / move whole sections?

That's possible, moving a selection should just be holding left mouse button on one of the selected blocks.
To select multiple blocks hold down right shift while clicking/selecting other blocks.

bgalon_2000 {l Wrote}:3) Does (and if not – can) copy and paste /move maintain linkage (for example, if I have a lever linked to a moving block – does moving the lever to another location still maintain connection to the moving block?

Moving the blocks will keep the linkages intact.
Copying on the other hand will always result in new ids for the trigger/movingblock and the linkages removed, even if you copy both the trigger and the moving block.

bgalon_2000 {l Wrote}:4) Zoom in / Zoom out – to allow seeing more or less of the puzzle.

This will probably be implemented along with the zoom in/out feature for in-game usage as discussed in the brainstorm thread.

bgalon_2000 {l Wrote}:5) ‘And’ gates on triggers – Meaning – is we have a number of levers linked to a moving block – the block moves only when ALL the levers are ‘on’.
7) ‘Disappearing’ option for blocks – so when a player moves onto a trigger or move a lever, blocks “disappear” rather then move. Can make great traps and provide different routes blocking.
8) Scripting language – was mentioned somewhere else – but something that allows you to introduce some programmable behaviour will be nice – I haven’t formalized this idea but I might think about it a bit more later on.

I am still thinking about implementing some sort of scripting.
The scripting language should make all of the above points possible and ideally even the default trigger/actor behaviour should be done through that scripting language.
Though we should still provide an "easy" user interface to the levelmaker.

I will probably start thinking some things out and trying different scripting solutions. ;)

bgalon_2000 {l Wrote}:6) Scenery blocks – Already mentioned in a different topic – block who have no other purpose then providing scenery. This can be a single block type that when you use configuration you have to specify a file name containing an image to be displayed.

This is something that is still on the todo list, the biggest problem is that the scenery is part of the levelpack while the images are part of the/a theme.
Using separate images will make the pack/level look out of place in some themes.
We can "combine" themes and levelpacks to give the levelmaker more control over the atmosphere of the levelpack.

What we also can do is let the levelmaker define the needed scenery (images) and bundle them with the pack (sort of mini-theme).
But also allow themes to "support" a levelpack by providing images for the scenery in the style of the theme.

Either way it will mean more work for the levelpack maker and more work for the theme maker. :|

bgalon_2000 {l Wrote}:9) I know we are trying to prevent “new kinds of blocks” that make the game more complex, but I think a push-able block will be quite good. You can push it to create stairs or drop it over edges onto the platform below. It’s just a thought.

I think this isn't such a bad idea and IIRC it has been mentioned/suggested before.
The current problem is that it's a lot easier to create levels focussing on the platform/skill part of the game than it is to create a puzzle level.

I will have a go at this soon. ;)

bgalon_2000 {l Wrote}:P.S - what happend to the Wiki? Do we have a copy of it just in case?

The wiki is down because the configuration file got lost, I opened a ticket on the Sf support tracker (#929).
The content of the wiki is still in place and should be fine, I do have a backup of the wiki database but that's already a while ago.

I think I will make an sqldump right away and maybe have a go at recreating the config file.
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Re: Level Editor?

Postby acme_pjz » 19 Oct 2012, 14:45

Hi Edward_Lii,

Sorry for off-topic, but I found a bug that Ctrl+N then save in level editor is broken. Can you fix it?
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Re: Level Editor?

Postby Edward_Lii » 19 Oct 2012, 14:48

Hello acme_pjz,

acme_pjz {l Wrote}:Sorry for off-topic, but I found a bug that Ctrl+N then save in level editor is broken. Can you fix it?

The question is how it should be fixed.

Should we confront the user with a dialog asking him for a level name and add the level to the levelpack?
Should Ctrl+N simply clear the current level but keep the same name/entry in the levelpack?
Or should we remove Ctrl+N completely and let users add new levels using the leveleditselect screen?
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Re: Level Editor?

Postby Edward_Lii » 19 Oct 2012, 17:34

Hello bgalon_2000,

Edward_Lii {l Wrote}:
bgalon_2000 {l Wrote}:9) I know we are trying to prevent “new kinds of blocks” that make the game more complex, but I think a push-able block will be quite good. You can push it to create stairs or drop it over edges onto the platform below. It’s just a thought.

I think this isn't such a bad idea and IIRC it has been mentioned/suggested before.
The current problem is that it's a lot easier to create levels focussing on the platform/skill part of the game than it is to create a puzzle level.

It's creates a bit more problems than I thought.
I tried implementing this block and the horizontal movement is quite easy, the vertical movement a bit harder but doable.
The biggest problem is the collision between other blocks, especially moving blocks.

At the moment there's no collision between blocks, only between the player or shadow and a block.
It's obvious that the pushable block should have collision, but what to do when a moving block is about to "crush" such block?
The moving block should continue his path, and the pushable block must stay in place. :think:

Any suggestions are welcome. :)
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Re: Level Editor?

Postby acme_pjz » 20 Oct 2012, 14:33

Hi Edward_Lii,

I think Ctrl+N should clear the current level but keep the same name/entry in the levelpack, although the hot key Ctrl+N is not appropriate :think:

Edward_Lii {l Wrote}:At the moment there's no collision between blocks, only between the player or shadow and a block.
It's obvious that the pushable block should have collision, but what to do when a moving block is about to "crush" such block?
The moving block should continue his path, and the pushable block must stay in place. :think:

Any suggestions are welcome. :)


No idea about this problem :|
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Re: Level Editor?

Postby odamite » 20 Oct 2012, 15:39

Hello,

Edward_Lii {l Wrote}:It's creates a bit more problems than I thought.
I tried implementing this block and the horizontal movement is quite easy, the vertical movement a bit harder but doable.
The biggest problem is the collision between other blocks, especially moving blocks.

At the moment there's no collision between blocks, only between the player or shadow and a block.
It's obvious that the pushable block should have collision, but what to do when a moving block is about to "crush" such block?
The moving block should continue his path, and the pushable block must stay in place. :think:

Any suggestions are welcome. :)

I really like the idea of pushable blocks so thanks bgalon_2000 for the idea. :D

There definitely must be a collision between these blocks. In my opinion the best behaviour is that if the moving block is on loop, the motion just reverses but when not looping motion stops and waits until it can continue. Also moving blocks should be able to carry pushable blocks if they are on top of them and push them horizontally.

Finally I'd like to know what you think should happen when pushable block pushes another one. Mostly because should player be allowed to push more that one block at a time? :)
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Re: Level Editor?

Postby Edward_Lii » 20 Oct 2012, 17:24

Hello odamite,

odamite {l Wrote}:There definitely must be a collision between these blocks. In my opinion the best behaviour is that if the moving block is on loop, the motion just reverses but when not looping motion stops and waits until it can continue. Also moving blocks should be able to carry pushable blocks if they are on top of them and push them horizontally.

I think this is the behaviour we should go for.
It's up to the levelmaker to make sure the pushable blocks can only reach places intended and so all moving block/pushable block interact is "expected".

odamite {l Wrote}:Finally I'd like to know what you think should happen when pushable block pushes another one. Mostly because should player be allowed to push more that one block at a time? :)

In my current (hackish) implementation, pushing the block goes at half the speed.
Simply pushing it with the same speed as you walk feels unnatural.

My idea was to use almost the same collision/move method as the player for the pushable block, meaning that it will result in the half of the speed.
So the speed will be split in half each pushable block.

This will probably not work out of the box so it will require a lot of "hacking" in the move/collision system.
But considering I wanted to change the collision system already it might be best to try and do it in one.
A few bugs with the current system:

This is a hard one to crack, especially since the new system should behave the same, making sure all levels still work and replays still work.
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Re: Level Editor?

Postby bgalon_2000 » 22 Oct 2012, 15:08

Nice one Edward_Lii...

Now really.... zoom in and out and we are rocking :)

Still working on Version 0.4... might have to start downloading a more current version on the code to see what is happening!
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