FreeGameDev

This conversation started in the introduce yourself thread. I've debated whether it is worth continuing or not. Either way it should probably be outside that thread.

freemedia2018 {l Wrote}:How do you suggest encouraging a company to change, which bought off the DOJ and continues to lobby against user rights in as many countries as it can?

Such as? This is the problem I had with the RMS/LibrePlanet articles.They don't give details on the problem. I can't tell if it is true and no one can refute it if it isn't. In the case of corporations (or even people), they can be both good and bad at the same time. They can support open source and advocate for software patents or whatever. I'm not saying Microsoft is a friend to Linux or open source. I think they have reluctantly come to accept that Linux is here to stay.

freemedia2018 {l Wrote}:The real problem is that the accusations against RMS were largely unsubstantiated, and exaggerated to try to stifle his participation in an event created by his own organisation. Meanwhile, Red Hat has a code of conduct, but its owners still won't apologise for their active role in the Holocaust (While Bayer apologised, IBM has not.) I don't think double standards can get much worse than that, the world is pretty much upside down at this point.

Unless the accusations against RMS have to do with Nazis or the Holocaust, why are you bringing in IBM's past? I suppose if they are a big sponsor of LibrePlanet but that seems like a stretch. Various companies and governments have done bad things in the past. Has the USA ever apologized for Von Braun not being locked up?

http://techrights.org/2019/06/23/bill-gates-and-his-jihad/ has similar problems. At the end of the article, he includes a link to an article about Bill Gates employing someone arrested for pedophilia. What does that have to do with Linus adopting a Code of Conduct for the Linux kernel? For that matter what does that have to do with Bill Gates? There is no suggestion that Bill Gates knew or is protecting the guy. The link should not have been added to that article. In my opinion the fact that an employee of Bill Gates is a criminal shouldn't even been an article unless it is about that guy as it doesn't tell you anything about Bill Gates.

dulsi {l Wrote}:This is the problem I had with the RMS/LibrePlanet articles.They don't give details on the problem. I can't tell if it is true and no one can refute it if it isn't.

That's because the articles are basically latest updates. The details are in the wiki.

There's a LOT of data on the Techrights website. It needs organising. People are working on it.

Research doesn't do itself. If you're researching these problems, TR provides a lot of data (and references) but as with any place that has news, it doesn't always name its sources. When you get it from another article, sources are common-- when the news reports something that wasn't public before, it doesn't always say who told them.

Techrights does both. And many of the sources are on the wiki. Many are in the links in the articles.

I can appreciate if you find it inconvenient, it is probably not the sort of website you're looking for. But that doesn't mean it is poorly researched. As I said already, the primary author is a medical researcher with an actual doctorate using his real name. That alone doesn't prove anything, but with the other information at hand, it ought to be something at least.

In the case of corporations (or even people), they can be both good and bad at the same time.

So what? Techrights doesn't say otherwise. I've watched Microsoft for years and years, mostly from other places than TR, and TR is not just a muckraking website. Microsoft is just a very dirty corporation (just got fined several million for bribing Hungarian officials. That's all over the press, you can check out WaPo if like, it's there as well.)

TR has information about new distros, programming tips, insider news (as in, probably only interesting if you're a developer) and it does try to organise the deluge of information.

But it's heavily cross referenced and sometimes it's probably better for research.

One more time, my decision to treat it as trustworthy (not infallible, nothing is) came form dealing directly with Dr. Schestowitz and also finding out which other respectable people find value in TR.

They can support open source and advocate for software patents or whatever. I'm not saying Microsoft is a friend to Linux or open source. I think they have reluctantly come to accept that Linux is here to stay.

They're doing to GNU/Linux exactly what they did to Sun Microsystems, and I could probably find you 20-50 different (non-Techrights) links regarding this. On the wiki, there are exactly 130 pages (I counted) containing the string "Microsoft" in the title.

Unless the accusations against RMS have to do with Nazis or the Holocaust, why are you bringing in IBM's past? I suppose if they are a big sponsor of LibrePlanet but that seems like a stretch. Various companies and governments have done bad things in the past.

The rhetorical point there is that:

1. Red Hat has a code of conduct
2. People (including from Red Hat) have complained about RMS and his compliance with the LibrePlanet code of conduct
3. The claims about RMS are exaggerated, dishonest and likely political (the political aspect is from insider tips, no publicly available source for that yet)
4. Red Hat is owned by a company that (unlike other collaborators) haven't even apologised for helping exterminate millions of people, but people from Red Hat want to stifle RMS on the site of his own organisations events.

That's a bit over-the-top ridiculous in terms of double standards. Maybe first they should ask their OWN company to apologise for participating in mass murder and war crimes before bothering RMS about manners, is the point.

Has the USA ever apologized for Von Braun not being locked up?

A very relevant question, when USA government officials are talking to other countries about manners and tact, but not as much here in this thread.

At the end of the article, he includes a link to an article about Bill Gates employing someone arrested for pedophilia. What does that have to do with Linus adopting a Code of Conduct for the Linux kernel?

This is a silly question if you know how the links at the bottom are created.

If you have a blog on wordpress.com (TR is self-hosted, albeit on a local wordpress installation) then wordpress.com will show "related stories" at the bottom.

It's an algorithm that shows such links, whether you're using Google search or Netflix or wordpress.com or Techrights. So if you're asking why does an algorithm consider other pages thematically related, you can either obtain the sourcecode or chalk it up to machine learning.

The direct answer is "Perhaps nothing!" perhaps something. That's "related stories" features for you.

For that matter what does that have to do with Bill Gates?

Hopefully the answer to this question is already obvious by now.

There is no suggestion that Bill Gates knew or is protecting the guy. The link should not have been added to that article.

Please let me know if you're still quibbling about this after reading the explanation. But to be honest, you might as well complain that the Google article on Wikipedia links to Facebook in the first paragraph:

Google LLC[5] is an American multinational technology company that specializes in Internet-related services and products, which include online advertising technologies, search engine, cloud computing, software, and hardware. It is considered one of the Big Four technology companies, alongside Amazon, Apple and Facebook.

In my opinion the fact that an employee of Bill Gates is a criminal shouldn't even been an article unless it is about that guy as it doesn't tell you anything about Bill Gates.

I happen to think your opinion is possibly based on expectations that are neither realistic nor really in line with the sort of standards you find governing websites these days.

This is the tech world-- I realise that a lot of it is very corporate now, that's not a feature it's a bug, but websites like the FSF and OSI when Eric Raymond was in charge weren't afraid to play fast and loose with links and news.

Perhaps you should just stick to the MSM? I could point out the problems with doing so, but if that's all you really want then who am I to tell you not to?

I am not regularly visiting Techrights but I am following Dr. Roy Schestowitz on Diaspora where he posts very quality news. He is doing an extremely important work, posting information and latest updates about the large corporations as an independent, noncorrupted journalist. We need more people like him, he is basically doing what Assange is (or was) doing with Wikileaks: revealing corruption, criminals and calling things by their right names.

Regarding Techrights, my impression of it has always been negative. I haven't checked it in several years, so I don't remember any specifics, but I always found it to be a conspiracy theorist website that pretends as if Microsoft is pulling all the strings to concoct some sort of evil plan, or something. I tried to look at some recent articles and reevaluate, but I guess I'm too out of the libre software loop (or maybe just getting too old for this stuff), I'm reading these and they might as well be written in French for how much of them I understand. (Or maybe it's just that they're nonsense, I don't know.)

Also, I've always found it suspect that Roy Schestowitz insists on putting "Dr." in front of his name all the time. It's not relevant to what he's doing unless he has a journalism doctorate or something, and I tend to think the only reason to do so is to make yourself out to be some kind of authority so people evaluate you less. It's a tactic creationists use all the time, for instance.

onpon4 {l Wrote}:I always found it to be a conspiracy theorist website that pretends as if Microsoft is pulling all the strings to concoct some sort of evil plan, or something.

Microsoft is pulling a lot of strings, and it is an evil plan.

Not all the strings, not some sort of plan. They just got fined millions for bribing Hungarian officials, and they just got a 1.76 billion dollar deal with the DoD: https://www.geekwire.com/2019/jedi-clou ... ashington/ Their main competitor was Jeff Bezos.

Again, I predicted the Red Hat purchase (without insider info) just months prior to it taking place.

The shift from free software developed primarily by communities to developed primarily by corporations, isn't a problem if the communities are not less free. The problem is, while it's not a zero sum game, there are elements of zero sum to it. The communities are losing.

What it comes down to, is that free software is about independence from monopolies.

For 2 decades, Microsoft has considered FLOSS a viable threat (well documented, internal memos, authenticity proven.)

For 2 decades, Microsoft has considered ways to fight that threat-- they have a plan for every threat they consider viable. That's how they work as a corporation.

Some of their actions are cult-like. Their way of dealing with prominent critics, for example, is the way a cult might with harassing people at their jobs.

There's ample evidence outside of the Techrights website, of everything I'm saying.

Maybe you don't consider any of that a problem-- I would like to know why not.

However, I think someone should be following these patterns. Find me anybody doing a better job of following them than Techrights, and I'll randomise my email and password here, since theres no option to delete my account.

These stories are relevant to some of us. I've followed what's happened to Debian for the past 5 years. But if I want more details and context, I go to Techrights for research. Like Wikipedia it's not perfect at all, but it's a great place to start.

People who think further corporate takeover of FLOSS is no problem, aren't going to care about Techrights either. Everybody else, can find useful information there if they're looking.

I already understand that a lot of people don't care whether FLOSS is run by communities, or by IBM and Microsoft and Google. The difference is that one groups works to keep you free as a developer-- the other brings control, instability (systemd with ACPI aren't as stable as other inits with ACPI for example) and surveillance.

Not everyone cares about those things, but they are still anti-FLOSS.

The then-head of OSI, Simon Phipps, basically stopped blogging about a year ago. Linux Foundation laid off everybody blogging about Linux on the blog-- they mostly talk about Windows now.

People from Microsoft (these are facts) are now on boards at OSI, Apache Software Foundation (now left) and Linux Foundation (not on the board, in an executive position.)

These are things that happen prior to mergers, prior to falls in company size-- Microsoft gutted Nokia mobile and they knocked Sun down so they could be purchased by someone else.

Again, not everybody cares. But even before I knew about FLOSS, before the Web was even popular, I used to hear from people about the things Microsoft was doing to hurt the computer industry.

They haven't stopped doing that, not ever. And a lot of the industry is running on GNU/Linux now. Including NASA and the NSA.

Microsoft is attacking key infrastructure with these tactics. You don't have to care, but expect other people to. Techrights is only one example. But a lot of the people who care most, are individuals and whistleblowers. Side with GAFAM if you prefer to.

Another thing that's great about Techrights is that it's one of the best single outlets for updates on FLOSS progress. For example, (and the story about Munich was covered outside TR) lots of people already knew that Munich was switching to GNU/Linux, and that a new official came in and said he was considering switching back to Microsoft. Now the German state of Thuringia is also going to prefer "open source." I haven't heard about that anywhere else yet, I'm sure there's a story on a website I don't follow, but Techrights does great aggregation.

CERN also, is moving away from Microsoft as the latter changed their definition of providers to increase the fees for CERN, and they have a budget to consider. Again, you can read these stories other places, but for a single aggregator I can't find a better one than Techrights.

I am just astonished how people can be looking at all this -- not just what MS is doing, but practically any other tech giant or large corporation -- and still think everything's more or less alright and we're just "hating on poor Microsoft". It genuinely brings me to depression. It is pretty crazy that even on these forums that should be focused on software and cultural freedom there are people who think that existence of such companies is okay.

drummyfish {l Wrote}:I am just astonished how people can be looking at all this -- not just what MS is doing, but practically any other tech giant or large corporation -- and still think everything's more or less alright and we're just "hating on poor Microsoft".

Meanwhile Techrights just did a preliminary interview with Eric Lundgren: http://techrights.org/2019/07/26/story- ... -lundgren/

The details are pretty bad for Microsoft, though some people will forgive anything. We know that the details are bad, because of the extent they went to to get the media to shut up about it. A lot of it comes down to a circular argument and false compromise-- it's not nice to say mean things about Microsoft, or as Jim Zemlin of the Linux Foundation says, it's like kicking a puppy.

Microsoft isn't a puppy, it simply considers itself blameless no matter what it does, and demands to be portrayed as such by a media owned almost exclusively by 6 corporations-- one of which happens to include MSNBC/Universal.

What it can't do through ownership it does through bribery, and everybody asks us to judge them "impartially." (Meaning without leaning towards critique.) Think of the puppies, sez Jim. Sure he chewed up your little distro, but he didn't mean it... the lawyers didn't mean it, the corporations signing patent agreements that the software you wrote is actually Microsoft's IP didn't mean it, and the people from the company complaining to your boss trying to get you fired didn't mean it. It's just a widdle puppy-- why won't you be nice? http://slated.org/torvalds_hatred_of_microsoft_critics_is_a_disease

freemedia2018 {l Wrote}:

dulsi {l Wrote}:This is the problem I had with the RMS/LibrePlanet articles.They don't give details on the problem. I can't tell if it is true and no one can refute it if it isn't.

That's because the articles are basically latest updates. The details are in the wiki.

Great. I've now gone to the wiki on RMS I still can't find the details about what LibrePlanet's Code of Coduct is. I can't find what RMS disliked about it. I can't find any allegations against RMS. It may be there but I've been unable to find it.

You are right that I'm looking for a distilled news article. If the wiki is the big draw than I misunderstood the site.

freemedia2018 {l Wrote}:So what? Techrights doesn't say otherwise. I've watched Microsoft for years and years, mostly from other places than TR, and TR is not just a muckraking website. Microsoft is just a very dirty corporation (just got fined several million for bribing Hungarian officials. That's all over the press, you can check out WaPo if like, it's there as well.)

https://www.pcmag.com/news/369680/microsoft-pays-26m-to-resolve-hungarian-bribery-charges

pcmag {l Wrote}:"Although Microsoft Hungary did not voluntarily self-disclose the misconduct, Microsoft Hungary received credit for its and Microsoft Corporation's substantial cooperation with the Department's investigation and for taking extensive remedial measures," the Justice Department said in a statement.

Quoted in the Post, Microsoft's President and Chief Legal Officer Brad Smith said the claims "involved employee misconduct that was completely unacceptable" and that employees involved "behaved in a wholly unethical manner," although the settlement documents state that the company itself has not admitted or denied any wrongdoing.

I'd like to see them say the employees involved had been fired. (Ideally also admit wrongdoing but that never happens.) I agree the fine is not sufficient but again that is the way we resolve things in the legal system usually. Frankly governments need to force consequences for these actions. Hungary should not allow Microsoft operating systems for some period.

freemedia2018 {l Wrote}:They're doing to GNU/Linux exactly what they did to Sun Microsystems, and I could probably find you 20-50 different (non-Techrights) links regarding this. On the wiki, there are exactly 130 pages (I counted) containing the string "Microsoft" in the title.

This is one of those things I disagree with from the site. Sun Microsystems ran themselves into the ground. Yeah Microsoft did some dirty tricks with Java but Sun was already in trouble before that. I doubt Microsoft's actions contributed significantly to their demise. Sun was a hardware company above all. Their hardware started to not be able to compete and they didn't adapt. Sun dropped x86 Solaris at one point because it out performed their hardware.

freemedia2018 {l Wrote}:

At the end of the article, he includes a link to an article about Bill Gates employing someone arrested for pedophilia. What does that have to do with Linus adopting a Code of Conduct for the Linux kernel?

This is a silly question if you know how the links at the bottom are created.

I don't think that is an automatically generated link. It appears to be part of the article. If it isn't part of the article, the site does a bad job of distinguishing those links.

I still can't find the details about what LibrePlanet's Code of Coduct is.

I can't find what RMS disliked about it.

I can't find any allegations against RMS.

It may be there but I've been unable to find it.

I intend to respond to the rest of your post later, but this is far more constructive.

The 3 issues here IMO in order of importance:

1. allegations against RMS.

2. the details about what LibrePlanet's Code of Conduct is.

3. what RMS disliked about it

The public allegations are here: https://wwahammy.com/on-safety-at-libreplanet/

The FSF is evolving on matters of Code of Conduct. There's this presentation at LibrePlanet https://media.libreplanet.org/u/librepl ... e-commons/ and the FSF KIND guidelines, and the LP Code of Conduct itself (which I've read before, but can't find at the moment for some reason) and underneath this, there are leaks from people I won't name because I don't want to get them in the middle of this.

What RMS disliked about it is not clear yet, but given the KIND guidelines as well as his comments, it seems like there are a few problems:

1. The allegations themselves are not based on facts, but based on feelings and possible exaggeration

2. The FSF is being pulled in two directions-- one way towards a more free set of guidelines, and a less free set of rules.

3. It may not be possible for the President of the FSF to both agree to comply with the code of conduct and also follow the mission, without encountering legal problems.

In other words, agreeing formally to the code of conduct (I hear from some outside of Techrights and FSF) could end up forming some kind of contractual agreement that compromises the FSF mission.

I'm pretty sceptical about the details of that one myself, though the reality may not be far from it.

Corporations have scandals and takeovers. Normally, there are NDAs that prevent discussion of such things. People have to break the NDA (which is a breach of contract and has penalties) to get these stories to the public. RMS has fought against NDAs his entire career, the FSF was founded as a response to them, according to the Bio they wrote for O'Reilly (which was sold for a while by the FSF.)

Consider the disclaimer that Wikipedia puts up on stories and people regarding current events. This would certainly fall under such a category.

It's not easy to distill any of this into the kind of product you want it to be. (I'm sure we would all prefer it to be.) It's even less easy when you consider the number of stories like this going on right now.

There are plenty of stories that do meet your standards though. Quite a few of them are dressed up press releases, written by the same corporations the stories are about or people who are in one way or another, on the take. It's easier to read, but it's farther from the truth.

Real news is messy. You don't find a lot of it, these days.

One of the people connected to the allegations thought it was cute to stand outside the place in Ecuador that Assange was hiding from the world, holding a sign that said "you're not even a wiki."

There are people who hate the truth, want it not to be told, and want all news to be moderated the way it was in the days before blogging.

For example, the people behind the NewsGuard plugin, are not only journalists-- they include people who handled the press for the White House under both major parties, and one of the things they want to stifle is criticism of Bayer and Monsanto. (Now the same company.)

Now, I should leave out that Bayer (like IBM) was one of those companies that collaborated with the Third Reich. After all, Mike Godwin has considerably backpedaled on Godwin's law.

Because if i mention that IBM and Bayer have this in common, you'll be sure to think I'm trying to prove this is all some giant Nazi conspiracy. That's popular these days.

I actually just think it's funny. I think the important part is that RMS is being stifled by his own organisation. I think it's relevant that the people trying to skewer him over manners are themselves extremely rude and condescending, and associated with companies with very dark histories. I also think it's relevant that this isn't just happening to Stallman, it is also happening to a surprising degree with Torvalds.

I'm not any more certain what it proves than you are, but one thing I am certain of, is that this stuff is underreported. I'm glad someone is trying to fix that. There are imperfections aplenty, but if you don't know what mitigates or justifies some of those imperfections, then it isn't a very conclusive evaluation. I'd like to fix that, but I'm not going to appeal to your own impartiality.

I'll simply make the argument, and let people do what they want with it. Eventually we will both get tired of debating. Not because I lose interest, but because there are other things to do.

I will, if at all possible, respond to the other points you already made though.

freemedia2018... have I spoken to you before? Something about your style of writing looks familiar. In any case it looks to me like a bunch of gobbledygook, and I don't understand what you're trying to say, or what you're saying it about. Again, maybe just because I've been too out of the libre software loop... but to be fair it really hasn't been long since I was last active in the libre software community, less than a year.

I am just astonished how people can be looking at all this -- not just what MS is doing, but practically any other tech giant or large corporation -- and still think everything's more or less alright and we're just "hating on poor Microsoft". It genuinely brings me to depression. It is pretty crazy that even on these forums that should be focused on software and cultural freedom there are people who think that existence of such companies is okay.

On the off-chance you're talking about me, that's not my position. Microsoft is a corporation, and corporations are by definition amoral and psychopathic.

What I seriously doubt is that Microsoft is the mastermind behind all the evils we face in the computing world today. There's too many powerful actors: Google, IBM, Amazon, SONY, Samsung, Apple... libre software has a ton of enemies and I'm not convinced that Microsoft is the biggest, or even one of the top dogs, in the modern day.

onpon4 {l Wrote}:freemedia2018... have I spoken to you before? Something about your style of writing looks familiar. In any case it looks to me like a bunch of gobbledygook, and I don't understand what you're trying to say, or what you're saying it about

Oh, well thanks very much for that. I learned how to read at an early age. Maybe you'd prefer to stick with soundbites and ad hom instead. Something "more on" your level.

I've never posted here, and I don't care much for what you have to say either. Let me know when the mods have your back on this rudeness, and I'll make my way to another forum.

onpon4 {l Wrote}:What I seriously doubt is that Microsoft is the mastermind behind all the evils we face in the computing world today. There's too many powerful actors: Google, IBM, Amazon, SONY, Samsung, Apple... libre software has a ton of enemies and I'm not convinced that Microsoft is the biggest

I don't know how you would rank them, GAFAM are all terrible. Of them, Microsoft is going to the greatest lengths to look friendly. Their lawsuits (actions) do not fit their words. What are Google, IBM, Amazon and others doing that's worse than Microsoft?

The lesser evil argument is used all the time to shift blame.

The Dems are blameless because it's all Republicans, the Republicans are blameless because it's all Dems. It works with corporations as well.

But seriously though, what's the point of debating with someone who demands that you're not speaking English? It's a farce, it's dismissive, have it your way. But I call BS. If you couldn't understand me, you couldn't coherently respond either-- and you did just fine. Perhaps you're just being too hard on yourself about your level of reading comprehension, you know-- covering your eyes and saying you don't see what someone means. That's certainly how your appeal reads to me. I don't like liars and I don't think they deserve politeness. People who lie waste your time and (obviously) don't admit when they've lost-- even if the only thing they're cheating at is a debate or discussion. Who needs them?

Can we please avoid attacks on one another? I decided to start this thread simply because I wanted to understand the appeal of techrights.org more and to explain some of my concerns with it's coverage.

But seriously though, what's the point of debating with someone who demands that you're not speaking English?

I don't know why you said this. I never asked you to speak any other language. I just said that I don't really understand what you're trying to say. Real nice of you to insinuate that I'm illiterate in response, by the way, but this has nothing to do with literacy, it has to do with the confusing and long-winded way you've been posting that makes it very difficult for me to discern what sort of objective or point you have. I'm not saying that's your fault; it could be my fault. Maybe I'm just not knowledgeable enough about something. But it's the truth.

But I call BS. If you couldn't understand me, you couldn't coherently respond either-- and you did just fine. Perhaps you're just being too hard on yourself about your level of reading comprehension, you know-- covering your eyes and saying you don't see what someone means. That's certainly how your appeal reads to me.

Again, you're suggesting that I was talking about my English proficiency, which couldn't be further from the truth. I'm a native English speaker and while my reading proficiency isn't the greatest, I've engaged in pretty intense debates before. So of course I'm not going to claim that my reading level is too poor.

You do know what gobbledygook is, correct? Considering the number of words you like to use in a single post that seemingly should be about something fairly simple, I would assume you do. So the fact that it looks to me like gobbledygook (and I'm not saying definitively that it is, by the way, just that that's what it looks like to me) should clue you in as to why I'm unable to understand what you're trying to say.

I'm only saying any of this, by the way, because you directly responded to my post. Most of your posts, I just ignore; I can't make any sense of most of them, either.

dulsi {l Wrote}:Can we please avoid attacks on one another?

That's a fine rule when everyone follows it, and I'm sure it's expected in a general sense.

I've managed to get my points across fine on the internet for literally decades, and I have some idea when someone is dishonestly denying that for rhetorical purposes.

I'm not willing to play with stacked rules, I'm only willing to abide by the ones demonstrated by others.

I decided to start this thread simply because I wanted to understand the appeal of techrights.org more and to explain some of my concerns with it's coverage.

Some of your concerns could be valid, but this thread is mostly about being dismissive-- of a "related stories" feature that works the same way across youtube, netflix, wordpress and google--

Of a scandal that you don't have more information about--

Of a website that does more than other websites do to provide that information, if only because it releases "early and often"-- (a very Open Source thing to do actually.)

Of me, personally.

With all that dismissal, who are we kidding that this thread isn't mostly about personal attacks already?

That's not necessarily your fault. I'm still willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. Lead, and perhaps the rest will follow. I'll gladly follow them. I thought it was fair to make these points first. Intellectual dishonesty and arbitrary dismissal (Pooh Pooh fallacy) ranks lower for me than impoliteness, or it is impolite itself, and nearly every post here is loaded with those.

As many of those are honest mistakes, this thread is going to be a waste of time unless several are corrected. Don't expect too much, I certainly don't at this point.

Consider yourselves warned

But seriously, this is a game DEV community first and for most. With a libre as a strong second.

A self described non-game developer and non-gamer but Free Software advocate is a welcome guest if he or she is fitting well in, but you will need to survive some rougher language as I am not going to police every word here (there are some red lines though) and if in doubt the moderators will probably side with a known libre game developer and long time contributer like 0npon4.

onpon4 {l Wrote}:Real nice of you to insinuate that I'm illiterate in response, by the way, but this has nothing to do with literacy

When the average response I get is not based on this problem, I don't think it is about literacy-- I routinely deal with people less literate than you probably are, who still understand.

it has to do with the confusing and long-winded way you've been posting that makes it very difficult for me to discern what sort of objective or point you have.

I often put my conclusions close to the bottom. I take longer to make my points, which you'll find people doing if others routinely complain about lack of details (one of the complaints that started this thread.)

More details, fewer words. You know what, I don't work for either one of you, but you're very demanding.

Considering the number of words you like to use in a single post that seemingly should be about something fairly simple

That's your problem right there. You and the OP both want these things to be simple.

They're not simple. Talk about complex issues and people start accusing you of making it up.

I already read the thread (what I could) from the guy talking about 101 things you can do with C and/or PHP.

That's gobbledygook. He probably does have a point, but I couldn't tell you what it is either. I was curious and tried to figure it out-- that's all I ask from people making demands of me-- ask no questions, get no gobbledygook answers. But this thread was started as a response to me, and I've responded.

Julius {l Wrote}:A self described non-developer and non-gamer but Free Software advocate is a welcome guest if he or she is fitting well in, but you will need to survive some rougher language

if in doubt the moderators will probably side with a known libre game developer and long time contributed like 0npon4.

Warning appreciated (better than action out of nowhere) but one quibble, I do develop, I just don't develop games. (I made a little one once, it definitely sucked.) I'll try to be nice, if I fail you've been fair enough already.

Yeah I actually edited that before reading your response

if in doubt the moderators will probably side with a known libre game developer and long time contributer like 0npon4.

Sorry to be complaining, but this is something that I don't like because it sounds as if I'll be given a free pass for objectionable behavior just because I've been here for a while. If I'm saying anything offensive or objectionable, I want to be called out on it so I can avoid making the mistake again.

Besides, I kind of suck as a game developer. Almost all of my projects are stagnant; ReTux I consider a failure, most of the other games I've developed are garbage (and many of those I already deleted years ago), and heck, even Hexoshi I'm not sure is worthwhile anymore. Plus I'm really slow and inefficient about it, and you know, maybe it's just because I don't really care anymore.

Anyway, sorry about waffling on about that. Point is, I don't want special treatment, so please please please try to avoid doing that even subconsciously.

I often put my conclusions close to the bottom. I take longer to make my points, which you'll find people doing if others routinely complain about lack of details (one of the complaints that started this thread.)

More details, fewer words. You know what, I don't work for either one of you, but you're very demanding.

Obviously, you don't have any obligation to help me understand what you're talking about, and I'm sorry if I came across as demanding. Like I said, maybe it's just my own ignorance that's to blame. That's certainly happened before.

No worries you are not getting special treatment, but this community as a whole needs actual game developers more that Free Software advocates (who have plenty of other forums), thus I do care more about them (not just you specifically). But I'll dial up the sensitivity of my ban-hammer just for you if it makes you happy

Edit: I am well aware that that would be also special treatment

onpon4 {l Wrote}:Besides, I kind of suck as a game developer. Almost all of my projects are stagnant; ReTux I consider a failure, most of the other games I've developed are garbage (and many of those I already deleted years ago), and heck, even Hexoshi I'm not sure is worthwhile anymore. Plus I'm really slow and inefficient about it, and you know, maybe it's just because I don't really care anymore.

If you never failed, you didn't try anything sufficiently challenging. My most complete games are Viobyte and Yaroid which are clones of Pac-Man and Asteroids. Troll Bridge and Bt Builder have been in development for decades. Sometimes I put them down for a chunk of time. Please keep trying I really want to see more of Hexoshi.

onpon4 {l Wrote}:If I'm saying anything offensive or objectionable, I want to be called out on it so I can avoid making the mistake again.

As do I-- personally if I feel like I'm running through a gauntlet, I'm going to start sorting people into allies and attackers. That's not how everything works in real life and it's not my preferred way of doing things.

Obviously, you don't have any obligation to help me understand what you're talking about, and I'm sorry if I came across as demanding. Like I said, maybe it's just my own ignorance that's to blame. That's certainly happened before.

That's not a problem, the problem is that if you are trying to understand, it has to start somewhere. I don't know what you are and aren't familiar with, and if I'm asked to explain, nobody knows where to begin. I would point out that if you can't follow anything I'm saying, then it's truly pointless. If you want smaller answers I need smaller questions-- when it starts with a complaint (not yours, it's true) about not enough details, then a bunch of comments are sure to follow. Not everybody can help (entirely) being long-winded. I've spent many years of my life trying. I also notice that some of these things take years to resolve (as in saying my piece, then waiting for years.)

I'm also aware of the number of people who have responded positively, making me a bit sceptical of those who insist I'm incoherent. If your interest is sincere, I can try to be more direct, or-- something. I can't develop a different writing style on the spot, I've spent years and years working to make a number of things clearer to more people. My approach is just as hit and miss as you claim your game development is (I don't consider myself a superb developer either.) Just let me know. Your post sounded demanding and dismissive, that's really NOT a problem unless it's intended to sound that way. For what it's worth.

dulsi {l Wrote}:If you never failed, you didn't try anything sufficiently challenging.

Isn't that true, in so many things? I'm up for the challenge here. I'll stop when we get bored with it. And if there are any games under free licenses, I really am looking (My way of evaluating them might take a while, but I am watching. Even for new games.) And if there are discussions about free software I'll probably join them as long as I'm able, though I didn't come to start those discussions. I came to participate in them. I'm here for drummyfish too, to help develop his ideas-- I'm very interested in those. I don't know if he's a developer (he may have mentioned it) but I hope so.

If you never failed, you didn't try anything sufficiently challenging. My most complete games are Viobyte and Yaroid which are clones of Pac-Man and Asteroids. Troll Bridge and Bt Builder have been in development for decades. Sometimes I put them down for a chunk of time. Please keep trying I really want to see more of Hexoshi.

Well, yeah, exactly, I never really tried very much, and I'm trying even less these days. But it's not only that, I'm also just not very creative. I don't have a vision for anything, for the most part.

As far as Hexoshi goes, I understand that there's a small number of people who remember that and want to see it continue, but overall it's a meaningless project and I'm probably just going to orphan it (it's something I've been thinking of for a while now). Because if I continue developing Hexoshi, let's face it, it's going to be the same kind of uninspired trash as ReTux. It already kind of is. Maybe if someone with some actual vision other than "Metroid with X Y and Z added and made as cheaply as possible" took over, then it would be worthwhile. But if that happens, then I don't need to be involved in that.

onpon4 {l Wrote}:On the off-chance you're talking about me, that's not my position. Microsoft is a corporation, and corporations are by definition amoral and psychopathic.

I guess I was talking more generally but I definitely like to hear what you think about corporations, it's true.