Serious question: do anarcho-communists start organisations?

Serious question: do anarcho-communists start organisations?

Postby freemedia2018 » 23 Jul 2019, 16:55

The answer is probably "Yes" and if so, I would encourage them to do so-- but only if they lean towards pacifism.

Anarchists differ on the matter of violence, but I don't endorse the ones promoting violent means. They don't represent all anarchists anyway.

The reason I'm asking is that I would like to see an anti-capitalist free software organisation brought into existence. I'm not an anticap myself, Though I would invite anticaps to both promote free software (as defined by the FSF) and promote anticapitalism through such an organisation.

I would be happy to provide some practical tips or technical guidance.

Although it is a political philosophy different from my own, I think such an organisation could bring about good things. I would not likely be a member of such an organisation, but I would be happy to collaborate with one on whatever the two have in common-- namely free software.
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Re: Serious question: do anarcho-communists start organisati

Postby Lyberta » 23 Jul 2019, 17:22

I would like a fascist free software organization. "Equality" is bullshit. You have to fight. Fascism is the only answer.
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Re: Serious question: do anarcho-communists start organisati

Postby Julius » 23 Jul 2019, 17:25

Why do you think it is necessary to have an explicitly anti-capitalist Free software organization? Isn't the GPL / copyleft already pretty anti-capitalist by itself?

Personally I see very few advantages, but many disadvantages of splitting off such a sub-group from the Free Software movement.

@Lyberta: come on, try a bit harder to add something worthwhile to this discussion ;)
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Re: Serious question: do anarcho-communists start organisati

Postby drummyfish » 23 Jul 2019, 17:49

Peaceful anarchist free software movement is exactly what I've proposed in another thread.

Organizations are okay with anarchism as long as they don't create social hierarchy. I'd love to see such an organization brought to life and would definitely join. As an imaginary member of that organization I'd also be open to collaboration with other organizations :)
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Re: Serious question: do anarcho-communists start organisati

Postby freemedia2018 » 23 Jul 2019, 18:02

Julius {l Wrote}:Why do you think it is necessary


Oh, necessary! No no, if I thought an anticap free software org was necessary, I would probably be anticap myself.

I merely think it would help.

Isn't the GPL / copyleft already pretty anti-capitalist by itself?


It certainly isn't intended to be. There's a nice clip of ESR (libertarian) saying it makes him "really, really angry" when people associate free software with communism. I realise that people draw parallels, but they're not very well drawn.

many disadvantages of splitting off such a sub-group from the Free Software movement.


That's kind of a topic all its own. I'm happy to talk about that here, or in another thread, but I want to be clear I'm talking about a separate organisation, not a separate movement. It's an important distinction when you consider how many free software (not "open source") organisations there are already: SFLC, Dyne, SFC, various FSF chapters, and so on.

I am regularly pushing for the FSF to adopt certain strategies to meet the challenges created by modern threats to free software. I am hoping for them to expand on what they do-- not change their core values. (Open source routinely asks them to compromise their core values. I think that's a ridiculous expectation that would only hurt the FSF.)

One of the more prominent free software developers (I won't name names but you've heard of him, or his project, for sure) says that it would "go beyond" the FSF's mission to do these things. While I don't agree with that argument, he insists it would be better to create *another organisation* for those additional values-- including for example, promoting free software along with free culture.

This is as close as I've gotten to an official (it's not official) endorsement (it's not an endorsement) from the FSF to create a combined free software / free culture organisation.

I suspect if it were that bad an idea, they would discourage that as well. But again, this was nothing official.

Lyberta {l Wrote}:Fascism is the only answer.


This was sarcasm, right? That's alright, I don't you know but I've made it through some very bad times in my life, I hope yours improves very soon. All the best.

As to why I think it would help--

I'm busy helping people manage a LOT of information about Open Source crumbling-- I was many years ago, an open source advocate originally. I became (and I am) a free software advocate, and former FSF member.

They are the most important free software organisation, but I have several concerns about their future. Engineers abhor a single point of failure-- Open Source IMO is less of a backup plan, and more of a decoy. But a backup plan (perhaps something federated, but this is not about online social networks) IMO is needed.

When free software already had anticaps in it, there's no reason for them not to have an organisation. They are not confined to it after all, I have focused for quite some time on outreach-- I do not only work within an organisation, but I work to create collaboration between different groups with their own different (and overlapping) goals.

It's what we do anyway, this would just have more of it.

drummyfish {l Wrote}:Peaceful anarchist free software movement is exactly what I've proposed in another thread.

Organizations are okay with anarchism as long as they don't create social hierarchy. I'd love to see such an organization brought to life and would definitely join. As an imaginary member of that organization I'd also be open to collaboration with other organizations :)


You may consider this thread all yours-- I started it, but I did so based on your comment on that thread with hopes that we could discuss it further (even in practical terms) without taking that thread over with talk of your ideas about an organisation.

Any ideas you have about that are not merely welcome here, they are indeed the point. Without your input, the idea will likely have no legs to speak of.
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Re: Serious question: do anarcho-communists start organisati

Postby Julius » 23 Jul 2019, 18:13

Point taken about it being only one many other free software organisations... but maybe I am a bit jaded and suspect that such an organisation would especially attact people that would start playing all these destructive in-group and out-group dynamics.
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Re: Serious question: do anarcho-communists start organisati

Postby drummyfish » 23 Jul 2019, 18:15

Thank you @freemedia2018 for being interested in my idea then, and offering help. I am currently drafting some texts that could maybe become some kind of a manifesto, but I personally don't want to start any movements or organizations myself because I'm very bad at it, not good with people, I have anxiety. More or less I am now waiting to meet more people like me -- well, I am waiting for at least one :) Fellow anarcho pacifist, if you're reading this, please respond! :) I'd be hoping I could perhaps help that someone else with getting things moving, but I don't think I am going to do that myself.

What I've been thinking about in practical terms was making a free public talk -- e.g. in a library -- about free software (and later maybe all the related ideas as well) in my area, or leading a programming course using free software, but I am struggling with this, not sure where to start, I'm pretty bad at this. I can give presentations and think I could teach people, but I'm a noob at organizing things. Not even sure how I'd advertise it, no one would probably come.
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Re: Serious question: do anarcho-communists start organisati

Postby freemedia2018 » 23 Jul 2019, 18:33

Julius {l Wrote}:Point taken about it being only one many other free software organisations... but maybe I am a bit jaded and suspect that such an organisation would especially attact people that would start playing all these destructive in-group and out-group dynamics.


I can't blame you for being jaded-- I am a collector of reasons to feel that way.

I am also a collector of reasons for hope. It's up to each person which reasons for giving up (or just being sceptical) and which reasons for continuing to try have the most weight when compared to each other. I am even a collector of examples of "destructive in-group and out-group dynamics." For example, this list of threats includes BOTH codes of conduct AND bigotry as potential problems: http://techrights.org/wiki/index.php/Li ... of_Conduct

I don't think a one-size-fits-all approach is going to remain sustainable.

But I do believe that certain standards benefit, and the most useful standards long term are those centred around freedom, not standards of decency. Decency is "nice" (Carlin) it isn't a standard. What is considered "decent" has changed many times in 240 years of USA history, what is considered constitutional has changed also, but not as often. I'd rather have a foundation based on core freedoms than based on everybody getting along, which is never going to happen (and that's probably a good thing.)
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Re: Serious question: do anarcho-communists start organisati

Postby freemedia2018 » 23 Jul 2019, 18:44

drummyfish {l Wrote}:Thank you @freemedia2018 for being interested in my idea then, and offering help. I am currently drafting some texts that could maybe become some kind of a manifesto


We are both fans of CC0, I would be interested in looking at the texts and hopefully they will be under that license as well. I notice the smilies here include GPL PD and 0 which makes me very happy. Even better, they include the symbol for CC-BY as well as SA but neither ND nor NC-- I'd love to shake the hand of whomever arranged that-- best smiley set ever! :heart:

but I personally don't want to start any movements or organizations myself because I'm very bad at it


When you write a manifesto, there are only two things that can come out of it-- A diary entry, a movement, or both. GNU started with a manifesto, and it is a movement. So I suspect you're not thinking this "starting a movement" thing through to its conclusions. Are you writing a manifesto, or a diary entry?

This isn't to discourage you, I just hope you consider what you're doing. I doubt stopping you would make either of us happy.

not good with people, I have anxiety. More or less I am now waiting to meet more people like me -- well, I am waiting for at least one :) Fellow anarcho pacifist, if you're reading this, please respond!


I would recommend you try to appeal to all anticapitalists with this. But that's just what I think is best-- it's your manifesto.

I'd be hoping I could perhaps help that someone else with getting things moving, but I don't think I am going to do that myself.


Write your manifesto, and be sure I get a copy of it.

What I've been thinking about in practical terms was making a free public talk -- e.g. in a library -- about free software (and later maybe all the related ideas as well) in my area, or leading a programming course using free software, but I am struggling with this, not sure where to start


I think I can help you with that actually. I too have tried working with libraries (short answer, they won't help. They might provide a venue, but that's it. They will cite their own organisational status as the reason they can't help, even while the ALA they likely bow to has the same status but routinely promotes ideas that dovetail nicely with yours-- the librarians are simply politically unaware of certain things, but they're very very good people and formidable activists overall.)

So yes, do it at the library-- it's cheaper and ultimately convenient. Don't expect them to assist much, they probably won't. Look for anybody in the library who either uses or speaks well of free software-- the one I tried to work with mostly used Windows, but had some machines running GNU/Linux in one department.

As for a programming course using free software, DEFINITELY talk to me about that.

Since late 2013 or early 2014, one of my primary interests regarding free software is designing curricula for both refurbishing computers and teaching programming. We can definitely design a course for you. Let me know details.

I'm pretty bad at this. I can give presentations and think I could teach people, but I'm a noob at organizing things. Not even sure how I'd advertise it, no one would probably come.


That's one of the biggest problems. I have some thoughts about that as well. I hope you will stay in touch.

Note regarding the ALA: obviously, they have no jurisdiction in Moravia and I have no familiarity with how organisations work there. For what it's worth though, Librarians as part of their job tend to be globally-minded, and my familiarity with Australia's equivalent of USA's ALA for example, reminds me a lot of the American one.
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