Random: *bored*games and lazy FSF commies (Libre clone rec.)

Re: Random: *bored*games and lazy FSF commies (Libre clone r

Postby onpon4 » 30 Apr 2019, 12:35

There's an IRC channel? I didn't even know that.
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Re: Random: *bored*games and lazy FSF commies (Libre clone r

Postby Julius » 30 Apr 2019, 12:47

#freegamer on freenode

https://freegamer.blogspot.com/p/irc.html

(Or join via Jabber: xmpp:#freegamer%chat.freenode.net@irc.xmpp.freegamedev.net?join )

Has been there for a long time, but since none of the idlers ever write much I suspect there to be a lot of IRC-bouncers left forgotten.

We also have a semi-official (qubodup recently set that up) Discord chat: https://discord.gg/usAHQdz
But again lots of idlers, but little ongoing conversations (Not sure what's going on there to be honest, as other Discord channels of open-source games are really active). But I'll try to link it to the new Mattermost chat once I got the Matterbridge working.
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Re: Random: *bored*games and lazy FSF commies (Libre clone r

Postby Wuzzy » 04 Jun 2019, 22:57

You'll play communist propaganda aimed at children (SuperTuxKart)

Well, the “story” of SuperTuxKart is really just an excuse plot, and a pretty silly one as well. You can tell it's not serious as it's very simplistic and only has 2 short cut scenes. And just the ancient “Damsel in Distress” trope (yawn). That's the whole “story”. It's not what makes SuperTuxKart. Obviously.
Yes, it is “propaganda” … against kidnapping? :D Yeah, the Damsel in Distress trope is overused, but I don't really care, it's only a tiny part of the game. It doesn't really matter.

But the part about communism: I totally agree, comrade! Now I see it everywhere! Red stars everywhere, and on every track features billboards like “Workers, Unite!”. And Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels are drivable characters. And the game has NO MONEY! Instead you must unlock the karts and tracks by driving races i.e. HARD WORK! And at the end, everyone always is on rank 1 because everyone's equal. It's so obvious now! :D ;)

--------------------------------------------------

@onpon4: I can understand your frustration with the movement, but I can not understand why you want to abandon the principles. This sounds like surrender. So what do you want? Should we all just surrender the ground to the proprietary world and let copyright destroy us? This clearly doesn't sound right to me. Things don't look bright these days, but if the free software movement didn't exist, things would be just much worse now.

I am still fully convinced the Four Freedoms are neccessary and I will continue to insist on them. Maybe the problem is one of tactics. I also understand your complaint that there is now a lot of software that is “technically free software / open source” but abusive in a different way. Well, I think it's not good to tolerate such software either. But that's not an argument against the core principles. The core free software principles just don't consider what the software itself does.

I think it of this way: Free software, when you strip this term to down to the raw, core meaning, is basically all about legal rights of the users. That's it. What the software actually does, entirely different beast. And it's obvious that legal rights aren't everything. So the truth is … being free software isn't enough.

So I would say it's true that only because a software is free software is still no guarantee it's not going to screw you. Well, in other words, free software isn't everything. There are other things we need to consider, like whether the software contains anti-features. This should not be even surprising now when I think about it. The point of free software is that it can be modified by everyone (legally). So obviously this includes the “bad guys”.

Maybe we have just failed to put the finger where it hurts most. I feel still many many average users / non-programmers just don't fully understand how many of the popular software today is screwing them in one way or another. And the “freedom” part is only one of many way you can screw users. While FSF is strong on the licensing part (whether you agree with them is a different beast, my point being that the GPL works as intended, whether you agree with the intention, or not), it does, frankly, not a good job in documenting all those anti-features which is probably even more important. Frankly, I think we all kind of fail here so far. There has still be no large public debate over anti-features outside of nerd circles.

There were just a few random raw thoughts I just had for consideration … Sorry if not everything is fleshed out 100% … I'm basically just doing a braindump. :P
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Re: Random: *bored*games and lazy FSF commies (Libre clone r

Postby fluffrabbit » 04 Jun 2019, 23:34

Inside of nerd circles, I can appreciate the problems with using something like Qt, even though it's technically free/libre/open source. Outside of nerd circles, I can also appreciate my dumbass friends who just like to play Rainbow Six and make racist jokes over PSN. You can't expect people to change who lack the capacity to change. If you have the capacity to change, you will keep changing indefinitely as that is your personality.

Proprietary software wins over those people, libre software wins over these people, and I'm content to be moderate because I'm not a communist lobbyist/insurgent who desperately wants to push a pointless political agenda. To me it's more of a science than a fight, and I would rather study the technologies involved than be stubborn about the culture surrounding them.
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Re: Random: *bored*games and lazy FSF commies (Libre clone r

Postby drummyfish » 05 Jun 2019, 02:06

Is free SW communism? Of course not, the usual proof I give to people is that communism is completely incompatible with capitalism, while free SW is not. That alone should dispute that, but of course, any sane person can see communism is a big ideology spanning the whole society, economics, morals, religion and so on, while free SW is just... SW with guaranteed four basic freedoms. It may be a small subset of communism in the sense that it fits in its principles, but so is for example free healthcare. Is that communism? I don't think so.

Is being anti-proprietary or anti-capitalism communist? Nope, not really. I am a huge anti-capitalist and I am not a communist, I am an anarchist.

Speaking of propaganda, I've been long thinking about a few libre games with free SW and anarchism propaganda, I think it's good to create such art. They are promoting good and art can (or actually has to and is supposed to) be biased and subjective. I challenge the reader to think beyond the scary sounding word "propaganda" and rather try to see and judge the consequences (applies to other words as well! This skill highly improves critical thinking :)).

One idea is to have a Half-Life 1 single-player FPS, which we desperately need in the libre world, where the plot twist, instead of a physics experiment gone wrong, would be a disaster caused by proprietary SW. Another one is a Pokémon-style game which would take place in an anarchistic society, showing it is a consistent model of a good society (when you think about it, the world of original Pokémon already had a lot of attributes of it). Feel free to steal these ideas, I highly encourage creation of such games.
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Re: Random: *bored*games and lazy FSF commies (Libre clone r

Postby fluffrabbit » 05 Jun 2019, 02:17

communism is completely incompatible with capitalism, while free SW is not

Now I know you're full of shit.

I am an anarchist.

So edgy.

They are promoting good and art can (or actually has to and is supposed to) be biased and subjective.

Ethos now too? I get off on the idea of mass murder. Does that make me "bad"? Now you have to exclude me from your ideology, which is what free software is about, not to be confused with open source. Open source can do whatever it wants, because it's not about freedom, it's about code.

One idea is to have a Half-Life 1 single-player FPS, which we desperately need in the libre world, where the plot twist, instead of a physics experiment gone wrong, would be a disaster caused by proprietary SW.

Yeah, give that one a try. I dare you.

Another one is a Pokémon-style game which would take place in an anarchistic society, showing it is a consistent model of a good society (when you think about it, the world of original Pokémon already had a lot of attributes of it).

My Japanese is shit, so I'm going to take the word "Pokémon" at face value to mean "pocket monsters", which has actually been associated with Satanism. In my ideal anarchistic society, Satan rules over all.

Feel free to steal these ideas, I highly encourage creation of such games.

Please, I want YOU to make those games. Show me Super-Satan Bill Gates turn the world into an anarchist's paradise gone wrong.
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Re: Random: *bored*games and lazy FSF commies (Libre clone r

Postby Julius » 05 Jun 2019, 07:49

Lets stop with the name dropping... obviously people here have such vastly different definitions of what the term "communist" or "anarchist" means, that there is really no point on discussing along these overloaded concepts anyways.

But on the note of anarchist Paradise gone wrong; Ursula le Guin's "The Dispossessed" is highly recommended:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dispossessed
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Re: Random: *bored*games and lazy FSF commies (Libre clone r

Postby Lyberta » 05 Jun 2019, 08:59

The problem is that FSF is a bunch of hippies that everyone spits on and Open Source is successful.

We need another movement to combat proprietary software and Open Source. I'm thinking "User Respecting Software". It doesn't have the word "free" in it. It gets straight to the point. This software will not do you harm intentionally. This means proper license and no anti-features.
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Re: Random: *bored*games and lazy FSF commies (Libre clone r

Postby fluffrabbit » 05 Jun 2019, 12:15

But on the note of anarchist Paradise gone wrong; Ursula le Guin's "The Dispossessed" is highly recommended:

Adding drama for the sake of fulfilling plot structure isn't "gone wrong", it's just an issue of convenience. I imagined something more like The Road, Mad Max, or some extreme yet-to-be-realized sequel to Hobo with a Shotgun, featuring Wuzzy's twisted versions of Bill Gates and Richard Stallman duking it out atop a pile of human skulls.

We need another movement to combat proprietary software and Open Source. I'm thinking "User Respecting Software". It doesn't have the word "free" in it. It gets straight to the point. This software will not do you harm intentionally. This means proper license and no anti-features.

I'm sure that will happen. F-Droid loves the term "anti-features". It will happen, it will be a thing, and I won't care.
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Re: Random: *bored*games and lazy FSF commies (Libre clone r

Postby onpon4 » 07 Jun 2019, 01:26

I can understand your frustration with the movement, but I can not understand why you want to abandon the principles. This sounds like surrender. So what do you want? Should we all just surrender the ground to the proprietary world and let copyright destroy us? This clearly doesn't sound right to me. Things don't look bright these days, but if the free software movement didn't exist, things would be just much worse now.

I'm not frustrated with the movement. I'm done with the Free Software Foundation (the organization) and its strategies. I wrote an article detailing why here:

http://onpon4.github.io/articles/actions.html

I also understand your complaint that there is now a lot of software that is “technically free software / open source” but abusive in a different way.

??? That wasn't a complaint I had... are you talking about someone else here?
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Re: Random: *bored*games and lazy FSF commies (Libre clone r

Postby Julius » 08 Jun 2019, 13:28

Moderator notice: I deleted the last three comments because we really don't need discussions with rape analogies and worse on this forum. Consider your self warned :(
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Re: Random: *bored*games and lazy FSF commies (Libre clone r

Postby Lyberta » 08 Jun 2019, 22:20

Julius {l Wrote}:Moderator notice: I deleted the last three comments because we really don't need discussions with rape analogies and worse on this forum. Consider your self warned :(


But the effect is the same: PTSD, depression, suicidal ideation and ultimately schizophrenia.
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Re: Random: *bored*games and lazy FSF commies (Libre clone r

Postby fluffrabbit » 08 Jun 2019, 23:48

I agree in part, but it doesn't take much. After spending a day mucking around with C++ templating, killing myself sounded really nice. It doesn't take much for me. Dunno about healthy people. There are many, many healthy people using only proprietary communication platforms. It starts for them with ignorance, then cognitive dissonance, then...who knows?
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Re: Random: *bored*games and lazy FSF commies (Libre clone r

Postby Julius » 09 Jun 2019, 15:15

Using proprietary services is not the same, not even close. And implying so is really insulting for persons that actually have been raped.

I am sorry, but this is one of those times I have to step in as a moderator. Also please change your signature Lyberta or I will remove it.

Edit: Topic locked and last post by Lyberta deleted again. Please do not open another thread about it or I will have to ban you. Seriously!
Please don't make this a personal thing and having been through a similar incident doesn't give you the right to use such analogies disregarding the feelings of others. And just for the record, I work with refugees that have been through really the worst kind of stuff including rape and torture, so I pretty much know what I am talking about, even if not from personal experience.
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