Random: *bored*games and lazy FSF commies (Libre clone rec.)

Random: *bored*games and lazy FSF commies (Libre clone rec.)

Postby fluffrabbit » 28 Apr 2019, 00:09

Split from: https://forum.freegamedev.net/viewtopic ... 20&t=11583

If Widelands and Unknown Horizons are clones, I don't know what they're cloning. Really all that's needed is for these old game developers to get back on the pony.

Also TBH these games are BORING. Card games, BORED games, and barely-violent empire-building games with medieval technology. Ugh. No more. Can't take...any more. :eew:
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Re: Libre clone recommendations list

Postby Sockstah » 28 Apr 2019, 00:17

fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:If Widelands and Unknown Horizons are clones, I don't know what they're cloning.


Settlers 2 and the Anno series respectively.

fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:Also TBH these games are BORING. Card games, BORED games, and barely-violent empire-building games with medieval technology. Ugh. No more. Can't take...any more. :eew:


Hah, I usually feel the same but slower games can be fun while listening to a podcast or stuff like that. They also flourish in multiplayer if you are in voice chat (or at a table, since you mentioned card and "BORED" games) with the people you're playing with.
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Re: Libre clone recommendations list

Postby fluffrabbit » 28 Apr 2019, 00:22

Sockstah {l Wrote}:
fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:If Widelands and Unknown Horizons are clones, I don't know what they're cloning.


Settlers 2 and the Anno series respectively.

Gotcha. Somehow those games are not on my radar. I'm more of a Half-Life guy.

Sockstah {l Wrote}:
fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:Also TBH these games are BORING. Card games, BORED games, and barely-violent empire-building games with medieval technology. Ugh. No more. Can't take...any more. :eew:


Hah, I usually feel the same but slower games can be fun while listening to a podcast or stuff like that. They also flourish in multiplayer if you are in voice chat (or at a table, since you mentioned card and "BORED" games) with the people you're playing with.

Dunno man. I don't really have friends to speak of.

EDIT: Removed my killer app idea. I'm saving that one for Steam.
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Re: Libre clone recommendations list

Postby onpon4 » 28 Apr 2019, 07:56

Reading them it seems to me like a lot of "clones" would fit neither in the first list for being too close to the games they're cloning but also not in the second one for being too different. Things like Widelands or Unknown Horizons come to mind.

I'm not familiar with Widelands or Unknown Horizons.

The only thing is whether a game makes an effort to be faithful to the original. So for example, SuperTux doesn't qualify as a clone of Super Mario Bros because it's in many cases doing its own thing (e.g. auto-run, switches) with no regard to that. That makes it an original Mario-inspired game rather than a clone.

Similarly, SuperTuxKart draws a lot of inspiration from the Mario Kart series, but doesn't attempt to emulate it. (STK, by the way, I'm planning on adding to the distinguished games list once I've had a chance to playtest the new version... which I didn't even realize was already released. Whoops!)

But just as an example, OpenTTD would be on there if it wasn't already on the distinguished games list, since it's a faithful reproduction. And something like Penguin Command or XScavenger is still on there despite making minor gameplay enhancements and tweaks because it still remains faithful to the original overall.

BORED games

I see you haven't been exposed to modern board/card games. None of them have libre video game implementations, but there's a bunch of them you're missing out on. Just a few examples off the top of my head: Battlestar Galactica, Dark Moon, Secret Hitler, Werewolf, Ticket To Ride, Fun Employed, Qwixx, Plague Inc, Love Letter, Hivemind,...

I go to a meetup every month where we play board games like these, and it's really fun. I think it's unfortunate that so many people's idea of a board game is something simplistic or badly designed like Monopoly or Candy Land.
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Re: Libre clone recommendations list

Postby fluffrabbit » 28 Apr 2019, 08:48

I'm starting to have second thoughts about these lists.

games that stand on their own merit individually

Well, aren't you the little dictator. Who are you to decide? Maybe I think a completely different list of games stand on their own merit. Isn't that what LGW is for? But who needs democracy when we can have a tyrannical overlord to subject us to the real truth of which games bear merit.

I see you haven't been exposed to modern board/card games.

I have. I've played Cards Against Humanity, various zombie games, and that boring garbage they call Pathfinder. I used to go to a similar group, but there were so many nerds there I couldn't endure it for very long. I happen to like Candy Land, and I tried to get them to play it, but the tasteless individuals wanted to do all the math and strategy games. So I got the mathiest strategiest game I could find, an abstract strategy geometry game which I still don't understand how to play, and nobody would play it, so screw them.
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Re: Libre clone recommendations list

Postby Julius » 28 Apr 2019, 10:20

It's a curated list on onpon4's personal website... of course it is oppinionated.

I think the nerds kicked you out of the board game sessions for needless trolling and now you bad mouth them :p
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Re: Libre clone recommendations list

Postby fluffrabbit » 28 Apr 2019, 10:29

Julius {l Wrote}:It's a curated list on onpon4's personal website... of course it is oppinionated.

I know, but my opinions are the correct opinions.

Julius {l Wrote}:I think the nerds kicked you out of the board game sessions for needless trolling and now you bad mouth them :p

No, but I ultimately left town. The Candy Land thing was an ongoing battle. I don't know why people badmouth it. You'll play communist propaganda aimed at children (SuperTuxKart) but you won't play an all-ages board game that has inspired generations with Wizard of Oz imagery and confectionous monsters that will literally drown you in a pool of chocolate. Some people just don't get it.
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Re: Libre clone recommendations list

Postby Lyberta » 28 Apr 2019, 14:35

fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:You'll play communist propaganda aimed at children (SuperTuxKart)


Wow, I've barely even played it so I dunno. What's communist in there? Story?
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Re: Libre clone recommendations list

Postby fluffrabbit » 28 Apr 2019, 14:52

Lyberta {l Wrote}:
fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:You'll play communist propaganda aimed at children (SuperTuxKart)


Wow, I've barely even played it so I dunno. What's communist in there? Story?

I did a whole writeup on it, and now I wish I hadn't thrown that out. Basically, the intro sequence shows the GNU cow-god meditating and levitating like a lama before the evil Donald Trump character lasers GNU away because of money or something, and the whole game is about that theme.
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Re: Libre clone recommendations list

Postby Lyberta » 29 Apr 2019, 03:39

fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:I did a whole writeup on it, and now I wish I hadn't thrown that out. Basically, the intro sequence shows the GNU cow-god meditating and levitating like a lama before the evil Donald Trump character lasers GNU away because of money or something, and the whole game is about that theme.


How is GNU communist?
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Re: Libre clone recommendations list

Postby fluffrabbit » 29 Apr 2019, 03:58

Lyberta {l Wrote}:
fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:I did a whole writeup on it, and now I wish I hadn't thrown that out. Basically, the intro sequence shows the GNU cow-god meditating and levitating like a lama before the evil Donald Trump character lasers GNU away because of money or something, and the whole game is about that theme.


How is GNU communist?

I'm not saying it is, per se, but that is one of the implications of the STK storyline. They make it about a fight between commercial/proprietary software (capitalism) and free software (communism).

EDIT: Just to be clear, I am aware that free software ideology may differ on a few trivial things from communism, but it's all presented as the same sort of hippy thing around here, and I feel there may be some involvement from certain less-American groups. I'm not picking sides, I'm just pointing out observations that are perfectly reasonable and harmless in this enlightened age.
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Re: Libre clone recommendations list

Postby onpon4 » 29 Apr 2019, 06:21

LOL, of course, free speech is "tyrannical". Gotta love how that works.

I happen to like Candy Land

Good for you, you like games of chance where nothing you do matters. But you can't just expect other adults to have that same preference.

The Candy Land thing was an ongoing battle. I don't know why people badmouth it.

Because it's a simplistic children's game where nothing you do matters? Like, at all? Literally all you do is draw cards. Everything that happens on the board is determined by what those cards say.

You're welcome to your preferences, but how can you not understand that most adults would find such a game to be boring? There's a reason it's targeted at very young children.
Last edited by onpon4 on 30 Apr 2019, 02:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Libre clone recommendations list

Postby fluffrabbit » 29 Apr 2019, 07:43

onpon4 {l Wrote}:LOL, of course, free speech is "tyrannical". Gotta love how that works.

You're entitled to your opinions, and I would publish my superior opinions if I valued free software, but sadly that is mattering less and less to me by the day. Always so much politics with the meal, and I didn't order that, I just wanted to eat.

onpon4 {l Wrote}:
I happen to like Candy Land

Good for you, you like games of chance where nothing you do matters. 笑 But you can't just expect other adults to have that same preference.

Life is a game of chance where nothing you do matters, much moreso than it is an orthogonal grid with set physical properties that can be drawn out on paper and strategized over like nerds. BTW is that kanji? Do you know how few westerners are capable of... Ah whatever.

onpon4 {l Wrote}:
The Candy Land thing was an ongoing battle. I don't know why people badmouth it.

Because it's a simplistic children's game where nothing you do matters? Like, at all? Literally all you do is draw cards. Everything that happens on the board is determined by what those cards say.

You're welcome to your preferences, but how can you not understand that most adults would find such a game to be boring? There's a reason it's targeted at very young children.

Again, it's a metaphore for life. Only nerds care about game theory.
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Re: Libre clone recommendations list

Postby onpon4 » 30 Apr 2019, 02:34

if I valued free software, but sadly that is mattering less and less to me by the day. Always so much politics with the meal, and I didn't order that, I just wanted to eat.

I do have a similar feeling to that. I wrote about it in an article a couple days ago, it's called "Actions Speak Louder than Words" (on the same website, the Articles section).

Not quite the same, though. I'm not abandoning the libre software movement or its principles; I'm abandoning the FSF and its way of doing things in favor of what the open source crowd has been doing for years to much greater effect.

Again, it's a metaphore for life.

I seriously doubt that. From what I can find, it's a simple game designed for children at a hospital, i.e. the design is just made to be simplistic and appeal to children.

Only nerds care about game theory.

You know game theory is an economic theory, right? It has nothing to do with actual games.
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Re: Libre clone recommendations list

Postby fluffrabbit » 30 Apr 2019, 03:20

onpon4 {l Wrote}:
if I valued free software, but sadly that is mattering less and less to me by the day. Always so much politics with the meal, and I didn't order that, I just wanted to eat.

I do have a similar feeling to that. I wrote about it in an article a couple days ago, it's called "Actions Speak Louder than Words" (on the same website, the Articles section).

Not quite the same, though. I'm not abandoning the libre software movement or its principles; I'm abandoning the FSF and its way of doing things in favor of what the open source crowd has been doing for years to much greater effect.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Of course the various free software organizations are all hot air, but open source communities (like this one) are no different. How are we being productive? How are we reshaping the planet and forever changing human life, or at least making money or something? My ego needs more than some apathetic comments about code structure.

I have dumped years into game development, some of it open source, and what have I gotten in return? A cauldron full of bitter piss. Maybe that's not open source's fault, but it's certainly the fault of nerds. I'm a mover-shaker idea man who can also develop software, but that doesn't mean dick around the Internet apparently.

onpon4 {l Wrote}:
Again, it's a metaphore for life.

I seriously doubt that. From what I can find, it's a simple game designed for children at a hospital, i.e. the design is just made to be simplistic and appeal to children.

A lot of art is truly discovered after it has already been created. Maybe they intended one thing, but Candy Land as I know it is an entire philosophy.

onpon4 {l Wrote}:
Only nerds care about game theory.

You know game theory is an economic theory, right? It has nothing to do with actual games.

I have also heard the term used in the context of biological systems, so I think it's more generally applicable. It also implies a way of thinking based on numbers, which conflicts with my philosophy.
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Re: Libre clone recommendations list

Postby onpon4 » 30 Apr 2019, 04:34

How are we being productive?

Improving libre software, mainly.

My ego needs more than some apathetic comments about code structure.

If all you want to do is feed your ego, there are tons of ways you can do that without changing the world. Why not barely learn a language none of your peers know and brag about it? That would work, I figure.

I have also heard the term used in the context of biological systems, so I think it's more generally applicable. It also implies a way of thinking based on numbers, which conflicts with my philosophy.

If you want to boost your ego, you shouldn't talk publicly about things you clearly know nothing about in a venue where you can be called out on it.

Better idea: go to the Flat Earth Society and argue with them about how the Earth is clearly round, or alternatively, join them laughing amongst themselves for knowing "the truth" while the masses continue to believe the "lie" of the round Earth. One of those would surely boost your ego.
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Re: Libre clone recommendations list

Postby fluffrabbit » 30 Apr 2019, 05:55

onpon4 {l Wrote}:
How are we being productive?

Improving libre software, mainly.

That's productive in the same way as polishing every smooth surface in your house.

onpon4 {l Wrote}:
My ego needs more than some apathetic comments about code structure.

If all you want to do is feed your ego, there are tons of ways you can do that without changing the world. Why not barely learn a language none of your peers know and brag about it? That would work, I figure.

I tried that, but they looked at me funny and my ego took a blow.

onpon4 {l Wrote}:
I have also heard the term used in the context of biological systems, so I think it's more generally applicable. It also implies a way of thinking based on numbers, which conflicts with my philosophy.

If you want to boost your ego, you shouldn't talk publicly about things you clearly know nothing about in a venue where you can be called out on it.

Better idea: go to the Flat Earth Society and argue with them about how the Earth is clearly round, or alternatively, join them laughing amongst themselves for knowing "the truth" while the masses continue to believe the "lie" of the round Earth. One of those would surely boost your ego.

I am familiar with the phrase "game theory" in the same way that I am familiar with the double slit experiment. I can perform the experiment, and I've heard it's a quantum thing, but I have no idea why. I know that certain people talk about these things, and I have a mental image of the venues said people frequent. Not my cup of tea, so I dish them a serving or two in a venue where the nerds are hopefully outnumbered by coolguys.

As for the flat Earth theory, I have voiced my theory of an equidistant spherical perceived reality, the "dome", but everybody says it's BS or whatever. I hear about places where people hold unconventional beliefs, but I have yet to find such a place in person.
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Re: Libre clone recommendations list

Postby Lyberta » 30 Apr 2019, 07:53

onpon4 {l Wrote}:I'm abandoning the FSF and its way of doing things in favor of what the open source crowd has been doing for years to much greater effect.


So are you gonna put a lot of spyware enabled by default and release binary under proprietary license with even more spyware compiled in? That's what every Open Source project does nowadays.

Check out: https://github.com/mholt/caddy/
https://caddyserver.com/download
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Re: Libre clone recommendations list

Postby fluffrabbit » 30 Apr 2019, 08:33

Lyberta {l Wrote}:
onpon4 {l Wrote}:I'm abandoning the FSF and its way of doing things in favor of what the open source crowd has been doing for years to much greater effect.


So are you gonna put a lot of spyware enabled by default and release binary under proprietary license with even more spyware compiled in? That's what every Open Source project does nowadays.

Check out: https://github.com/mholt/caddy/
https://caddyserver.com/download

It's true. DVDStyler is a GPL'd open source project that (formerly or currently) installs browser adware by default. Way to exploit that open source niche. It's not really in distros and the FSF probably wouldn't approve of the project, but I think people can and should make up their own minds about these things.

There are plenty of quality proprietary games that are either demo versions or commercial releases. It's when you get into the free-as-in-beer realm that things often get iffy. The mobile app market is a shining example of this kind of exploitation, and I really should have smartened up and gotten into that freemium/ad-supported model when it was new. That's where the biggest suckers are. It's all fair game if there is a chance of making the developer's time worthwhile.

Not to split hairs, but a project that adheres to an open source license is technically FAIF and FLOSS, so when someone just says "open source", it has little to do with philosophy; it could mean either the corporate open-sourcing of a not-entirely-free system like Mono or GitLab, or it could mean a totally open source project (which may or may not play funny tricks on users).
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Re: Random: *bored*games and lazy FSF commies (Libre clone r

Postby Julius » 30 Apr 2019, 09:07

Split the discussion.

While I don't mind lively discussions, this one was getting widely off topic. How about making our IRC channel a bit more lively instead of clogging up theads here on the forum with discussions like that?
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Re: Random: *bored*games and lazy FSF commies (Libre clone r

Postby fluffrabbit » 30 Apr 2019, 09:25

Julius {l Wrote}:Split the discussion.

While I don't mind lively discussions, this one was getting widely off topic. How about making our IRC channel a bit more lively instead of clogging up theads here on the forum with discussions like that?

I think people would if there was newer/better chat software running. I used to be an IRC guy, but it just doesn't feel worth the hassle anymore. I'll go onto #freegamer once in a while for 30 minutes, there will be 10 people there who are all AFK, and that's it, I leave. Plus the webchat client is a bit unreliable.
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Re: Random: *bored*games and lazy FSF commies (Libre clone r

Postby Julius » 30 Apr 2019, 09:31

Sure, in the works. As soon as I got the bridging to IRC going I will open registration to our new Mattermost chat. It's working nicely already, but without any kind if bridging you will talk to yourself mostly ;)
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Re: Random: *bored*games and lazy FSF commies (Libre clone r

Postby fluffrabbit » 30 Apr 2019, 09:40

Julius {l Wrote}:Sure, in the works. As soon as I got the bridging to IRC going I will open registration to our new Mattermost chat. It's working nicely already, but without any kind if bridging you will talk to yourself mostly ;)

Exciting stuff. This too seems broken on Falkon, unfortunately. You really need to open it up to anonymous users. This "team chat" feels like a walled garden.
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Re: Random: *bored*games and lazy FSF commies (Libre clone r

Postby Julius » 30 Apr 2019, 10:19

It will be open to anonymous users through the IRC gateway (matterIRCd) and bridge to other IRC channels. Maybe also through a xmpp chat (routing internally through IRC). Direct anonymous access is not possible in Mattermost (on purpose I guess, see Mozilla's current IRC discussion). But I think you can share links to read only threads if I enable that function.
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Re: Random: *bored*games and lazy FSF commies (Libre clone r

Postby fluffrabbit » 30 Apr 2019, 10:44

Well, that's one advantage of Discord I guess. Just so long as people can get in and chat quickly, Mozilla notwithstanding (I'm not familiar with their latest shenanigans), it should all be fine I guess.
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