SJW's ruined software development.

Re: SJW's ruined software development.

Postby drummyfish » 18 Dec 2020, 20:14

Guys. You just don't understand my opinions :| Please believe me I am not trolling, I am completely serious but at this point I think I am completely alone in the whole world. It's a horrible feeling. Let me try to explain some things at least a bit, okay?

I think the whole idea of getting offended by words is completely wrong (I'll skip the reasons etc.) and we have to unlearn this. Imagine a world in which it is literally impossible to offend anyone simply by words. So many things would be solved. We could collaborate and swear freely, no self censorship, no cancelling, no correctness, no offended people. I am already able to do this, so in theory everyone can. So, I am trying to simply promote this mentality and teach people to give up this weakness. So much for the "correct speech" issue.

I am an anarcho-communist too. However recently I have realized that what sets me apart from other anarchists is mainly the pacifism. Basically I now see anyone who's not a pacifist as a fascist. Keep in mind I still don't hate any person, even if the person realizes he's a fascist and willingly wants to be, though most don't know.

I never hate people, that's always the wrong thing to do, I only ever hate specific ideas, as I think everyone should. I love every living being and life itself, truly and from my heart -- yes, even Trump and other such assholes. If, out of convenience, I say I dislike someone, it really just means I dislike his ideas and/or actions and I wish he'd change and we can live in peace. So, I love all LGBT people, even though I hate what they do etc.

Now clearly there are things I dislike, like having a diarrhea or if someone dresses a certain way. E.g. I dislike tattoos and for the love of god I can not stop disliking them whatever I do. In the same way I feel awkward and uncomfortable around huge badass men who act feminine or have pink hair or whatever. I simply don't fancy the kind of fashion gay people wear, the way they talk etc., sorry, I can't change this even if I try, you'd have to kill me. For this reason, if there are two groups of people, one of stereotypical gay people and one of your typical hetero people, I will probably _PREFER_ to hang around the heteros as I would prefer to eat icecream to eating broccoli. It is impossible to not have any preferences and tastes in life. This is not hate, it's just a taste, like in fashion etc. But this somehow automatically puts me in the same group as people who literally want to perform a genocide of all gay people.

Basically, I think the issue of speech is bullshit made up issue that's good for keeping the fascist/capitalism regime going. It creates enemies, strengthens hate and hierarchies. As with my software, so with my life I try to get rid of any bullshit, so I just ignore this issue and advise everyone to do the same. No, you don't need a desktop environment, graphics card, full HD monitors, you don't need censorship or rules for correct speech. Just let it go. Then we can together talk about ideas of how to make the world a better place for everyone <3

Does this make sense? :|
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Re: SJW's ruined software development.

Postby GunChleoc » 18 Dec 2020, 22:00

You are definitely not the only person in this world who doesn't like being overly PC and littering their speech with euphemisms. I prefer to speak plainly, but kindly. I also don't believe that certain words themselves are inherently harmful - it all depends on the context in which they are said and how they are said.

Take another look at how you introduced yourself to that community and at opon4's explanation as to how you were probably perceived - by inadvertently triggering all their buttons and troll detectors. It's generally a good idea when joining a new community to learn the community culture first before you post - then it would be easier for you to explain what you mean in a way they can understand and discuss more rationally.

From the viewpoint of a moderator, when we see somebody waving the "free speech" card, it's usually because they don't understand how to keep a civil tongue in their head or not to be a bully, so you managed to tick that box as well and strengthen their perception of you as a troll.
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Re: SJW's ruined software development.

Postby onpon4 » 18 Dec 2020, 23:36

Imagine a world in which it is literally impossible to offend anyone simply by words. So many things would be solved. We could collaborate and swear freely, no self censorship, no cancelling, no correctness, no offended people. I am already able to do this, so in theory everyone can. So, I am trying to simply promote this mentality and teach people to give up this weakness.

The only reason you imagine "weakness" to be the problem here is because your own privilege makes you incapable of seeing the perspective that many others see.

Words have meanings, and some of those meanings have malicious intent. It's not as simple as "just don't be offended by words". When I'm offended by the TERF who says they're "not against transgender people but just don't like the transgender ideology", I know that the intent behind that is to deny children potentially life-saving treatments and try to force them to be cis, which is impossible and abusive. And as this example I'm giving is euphemistic, it should be clear that it's not the words that are the problem. It's the meaning and, as mentioned, the intent of those words. In fact, often euphamisms are worse than just blatant expressions of bigotry because they express the same harmful ideas in ways that are easier for centrist liberals to swallow.

To be plainly clear, there is nothing wrong with words like "shit" and "fuck", and it honestly pisses me off that these are considered to be "bad words" while plain expressions of casual sanism (like calling people "crazy" or "insane", or using these kinds of words to mean "shitty" and other plainly negative things) are seen as perfectly acceptable around children. You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone on the left who has any problem with so-called "swear words" that don't marginalize people.

Basically I now see anyone who's not a pacifist as a fascist.

Violence is not a feature exclusive to fascism, and I think it's rather naïve to believe that just allowing empires to kill you is going to be an effective strategy for creating and maintaining any kind of society.

I love all LGBT people, even though I hate what they do etc.

Regardless of how you frame it, this is a queermisic attitude. The only thing all queer people have in common is... being queer. If you hate people being queer itself, that's only one step removed from hating us in general, a pointless euphemism. On the other hand, if it's something other than being queer that you hate us doing, you're assuming that we all do that thing, which we don't. Queer people are just as diverse as non-queer people.

I simply don't fancy the kind of fashion gay people wear, the way they talk etc.

Ok, so it's the second option.

We don't all dress the same. You're ascribing a stereotype to all of us, probably because you want to rationalize queermisic attitudes you have. What you should do instead is challenge those attitudes and perceptions. Gay people wear clothing that's just as varied as straight people. Same goes for trans people vs. cis people.

For this reason, if there are two groups of people, one of stereotypical gay people and one of your typical hetero people, I will probably _PREFER_ to hang around the heteros as I would prefer to eat icecream to eating broccoli. It is impossible to not have any preferences and tastes in life. This is not hate, it's just a taste, like in fashion etc. But this somehow automatically puts me in the same group as people who literally want to perform a genocide of all gay people.

There's a major difference between not liking a particular person and just assuming that you won't like them because of their gender or sexuality. One is a natural consequence of preferences, one is a systematic effort to avoid having contact with people you're bigoted against. When you go out of your way to say that gay people make you uncomfortable, you are doing the latter, not the former.

Also, something you do doesn't have to literally be genocide before it's queermisic.

Basically, I think the issue of speech is bullshit made up issue that's good for keeping the fascist/capitalism regime going. It creates enemies, strengthens hate and hierarchies.

That's an awfully over-simplified view of the world. People in power drive the working class apart with wedge issues, but "hating harmful language" isn't one of them. The wedge issue at play there is bigotry, and people targeted by said bigots (because of the influence of the rich) fight back because our survival depends on it. To that end, language does matter. It's how bigotry is normalized and spread, and it is that bigotry which is what divides us in the first place (as pertains this specific wedge issue).

I and other marginalized people can't just make wedge issues go away by just sitting back and taking the abuse dished out at us, because the next step from that is taking away our rights. In fact, that's already happening all the time. I don't have it near as bad as, say, a black person, who risks getting pulled over and killed by those working for the racist police institution. But there are efforts right now to implement policies that deny essential health care to transgender children, for instance, and neurodivergent people right now can have their rights taken away at any moment if the state decides that they're too "insane".

We're not punching bags. We are not pawns in a game of chess. We're people, and many of us are constantly under attack, to varying degrees. If you want to see an end to capitalism, the state, and hierarchies, you need to start thinking of us that way and actually help us in our struggles. You can't just demand solidarity from people who you refuse to show solidarity to, or demand that we just sit and take whatever abuse comes our way so you can supposedly "make the world a better place".
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Re: SJW's ruined software development.

Postby drummyfish » 19 Dec 2020, 15:47

OK, thank you my friends <3 I've left my message and don't think we can really move much further in convincing each other. I am very glad we could talk, know that I'm open to listening to you and take you seriously :) I'll let others speak now.
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Re: SJW's ruined software development.

Postby Lyberta » 28 Dec 2020, 14:30

drummyfish {l Wrote}:I think the whole idea of getting offended by words is completely wrong (I'll skip the reasons etc.) and we have to unlearn this. Imagine a world in which it is literally impossible to offend anyone simply by words. So many things would be solved. We could collaborate and swear freely, no self censorship, no cancelling, no correctness, no offended people. I am already able to do this, so in theory everyone can.


In theory it would be nice for people to have infinite mental health so they are not offended by words. Reality, however, is drastically different. Just because you have that privilege doesn't mean other people have it.

FYI: I'm waiting for official charges from police for physical assault right now because of something one person said and I've spent hundreds of hours in the last month of thinking of "upgrading" this assault to murder.
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Re: SJW's ruined software development.

Postby drummyfish » 28 Dec 2020, 14:44

Lyberta {l Wrote}:In theory it would be nice for people to have infinite mental health so they are not offended by words. Reality, however, is drastically different. Just because you have that privilege doesn't mean other people have it.


It's not about resisting emotion and costing you something, it's about changing perception, and can be learned (I believe by everyone). I was actually kind of forced to discover this exactly because my mental energy became depleted.
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Re: SJW's ruined software development.

Postby Lyberta » 28 Dec 2020, 15:07

drummyfish {l Wrote}:It's not about resisting emotion and costing you something, it's about changing perception


It only changes to "nothing matters anymore, gotta kill myself or wait for life to kill me". Do you want a society full of people taking drugs/smoking/drinking/killing themselves?
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Re: SJW's ruined software development.

Postby PeterX » 28 Dec 2020, 15:07

Drummyfish said "Let's other speak" so I dare to throw in my two pence:

I think words can harm. And to excuse harming words with being immune to them is rude in itself imho.

I certainly don't agree on all that onpon4 and Lyberta wrote in this forum generally in the past, but I think they made good points here in the last postings.

Saying "I don't hate gay people but I hate just what they do" is kind of saying actually "I hate gay people".

I understand that drummyfish as an anarchist sees no use in speech rules. But I simply think that's wrong.

Words can be used as weapons, so as a pacifist maybe you become a bit more aware of that.

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Re: SJW's ruined software development.

Postby onpon4 » 28 Dec 2020, 23:08

Worth noting, on an aside, that I'm an anarchist. Anarchism doesn't include not setting ground rules or just allowing people to be disrespectful or hurtful. Anarchy is a rejection of hierarchies, not a rejection of civility and not a rejection of rules / guidelines enforced by peer pressure.

To wit, anarchy doesn't mean you get to barge into someone's house and harass them, or say hateful or hurtful shit without social consequences.
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Re: SJW's ruined software development.

Postby Lyberta » 29 Dec 2020, 01:52

onpon4 {l Wrote}:To wit, anarchy doesn't mean you get to barge into someone's house and harass them


Only if you have a bigger gun! Anarchy is the power of people with bigger guns. I love it.

The whole point of anarchy is that if you barge into someone's house, they wouldn't be able to call the police, so you can kill them without any repercussions. That is amazing. Killing people becomes easy and effortless. You only need to care for your gun. That is why anarchy is the best social order.
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Re: SJW's ruined software development.

Postby onpon4 » 29 Dec 2020, 02:00

Well no, anarchy means all hierarchies would be abolished. No one person would be able to wield any kind of power; if one person gets a big gun and starts threatening people with it, everyone works together to put a stop to it because no one wants to be threatened by someone with a gun. In practice this would mostly happen with militaries trying to occupy the society, but it would apply just as much to someone who tries to claim power from within. One person is no match for 100 people no matter how big or numerous the one person's guns are.
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Re: SJW's ruined software development.

Postby Lyberta » 29 Dec 2020, 02:22

onpon4 {l Wrote}:if one person gets a big gun and starts threatening people with it, everyone works together to put a stop to it because no one wants to be threatened by someone with a gun.


This is why you seed fear and distrust into people so they can't cooperate and you can kill them easily. Divide and conquer.

That is why *isms and *phobias are so great and effective. "Hate your neighbor like you hate yourself".
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Re: SJW's ruined software development.

Postby onpon4 » 29 Dec 2020, 09:14

That's what states use propaganda to do. It's always a danger, but it should be possible for an anarchist society to harden itself against such tactics. And honestly, I doubt a single individual would be able to pull off a massive espionage / propaganda plot. Large empires (like the United States) would be the real threat.
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Re: SJW's ruined software development.

Postby drummyfish » 29 Dec 2020, 11:04

Note that anarchy means opposition to ALL hierarchies, there is no such thing as a justified oppression, so the whole concept of "eat the rich" or "bullying the bully is okay", popular in the US, falls apart. If you accept that your form of hierarchy/oppression is somehow special and justified and different from all the previous historical oprressions, you become nothing more than just another rightist. Every oppressor in the history though he was doing good and his rule was justified in some sense. The concept of anarchy is to reject this whole concept of justifying a minority having a ruling power over everyone. True anarchy therefore rejects all violence and oppression, because violence is a means to establishing hierarchy.

INB4 but dude how will you fight someone who uses violence? Well, firstly there are non violent ways, and secondly you should cure the root causes, not just the symptoms, i.e. ask why anyone is wanting to use violence against you in the first place. You may believe it's impossible and utopic, that's okay, but then please don't confusingly call yourself an anarchist.
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Re: SJW's ruined software development.

Postby onpon4 » 29 Dec 2020, 16:28

Note that anarchy means opposition to ALL hierarchies, there is no such thing as a justified oppression, so the whole concept of "eat the rich" or "bullying the bully is okay", popular in the US, falls apart.

First of all, "eat the rich" is an expression that you would understand just fine if you were a leftist, but since it's clear you aren't, I'll quote the top definition on Urban Dictionary: "The movement to strike back against obnoxious rich and wealthy." In other words, "eat the rich" refers to fighting against oppressors (the rich, who right now are oppressing everybody for their own self-gain, as any leftist should know). Fighting back against oppressors is not oppression, that's just ridiculous.

Second of all, no one on the left advocates for "bullying the bully". Usually we don't tend to use simplistic language rooted in high school in the first place, but if we were to use high school as an analogy, the poor and minorities aren't fighting against "bullies", we're fighting against the system. In this analogy, that's not some bully, that's the school system which indoctrinates us with capitalist ideology and forces us to be in a system we didn't sign up for, and the teachers who enforce that system. And what the left advocates is to rise up against that system.

True anarchy therefore rejects all violence and oppression, because violence is a means to establishing hierarchy.

Violence is a lot more complicated than that. If a fascist dictatorship rises up and tries to kill all minorities in the population, and you choose to not resist them even though you can because you "reject all violence", you are culpable for that in the same way that German citizens who chose to stand by and watch as the Nazis took over are culpable for the Holocaust. On the flipside, those who tried to resist the Nazis with violence (the anti-fascists which the modern Antifa movement can trace its lineage back to) were heroes, not oppressors. This simplistic "violence is bad" attitude is nothing more than an excuse to blame the victim and give quarter to oppressors.

INB4 but dude how will you fight someone who uses violence? Well, firstly there are non violent ways, and secondly you should cure the root causes, not just the symptoms, i.e. ask why anyone is wanting to use violence against you in the first place. You may believe it's impossible and utopic, that's okay, but then please don't confusingly call yourself an anarchist.

You can't "cure the root cause" of a problem if the problem is that you live in a militaristic country that is transforming into a fascist dictatorship because of widespread extreme nationalism, or if the problem is that an empire is invading you and will kill or enslave everyone you know and love if they have their way. This is why your "violence is always bad" philosophy falls apart and it's why very few people are anarcho-pacifist. Anarcho-pacifism is not essential to all anarchism.

Furthermore, I don't believe you are an anarcho-pacifist. I believe you are a liberal using a label you think sounds cool but either don't understand or don't care about the meaning of, and you are "pacifist" because you give quarter to oppressive power structures that you are in favor of because they benefit you.
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Re: SJW's ruined software development.

Postby Lyberta » 30 Dec 2020, 05:37

onpon4 {l Wrote}:[Second of all, no one on the left advocates for "bullying the bully". Usually we don't tend to use simplistic language rooted in high school in the first place, but if we were to use high school as an analogy, the poor and minorities aren't fighting against "bullies", we're fighting against the system. In this analogy, that's not some bully, that's the school system which indoctrinates us with capitalist ideology and forces us to be in a system we didn't sign up for, and the teachers who enforce that system. And what the left advocates is to rise up against that system.


But then the left condemns school shootings and argues for gun control. How are you gonna fight the system without guns and genocide???
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Re: SJW's ruined software development.

Postby onpon4 » 30 Dec 2020, 06:27

School shootings don't stand up against the system, they attack victims of the system. This is not in any way to the detriment of power structures, in fact it enhances power structures by giving those in power an excuse to grab more power ostensibly to "protect" their subjects (see how airport "security" became ridiculous after 9/11).
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Re: SJW's ruined software development.

Postby drummyfish » 31 Dec 2020, 10:43

I have one quick question:

There is a large portion of humans who are offended by anyone drawing a picture of the prophet Muhammad, and it doesn't even have to be a caricature. If you are for politically correct language, are you also for banning/censoring all pictures of prophet Muhammad? And why?
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Re: SJW's ruined software development.

Postby Julius » 31 Dec 2020, 13:22

That question doesn't even remotely make sense (and reeks of the typical alt-right bullshit "logic"). Why would anyone have a practical reason to draw the prophet Muhammad? There is simply no sensible logic behind that, and if it is done, then purely out of some misguided sense of free artistic expression and/or specifically to provoke Muslim sensibilities.

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Re: SJW's ruined software development.

Postby drummyfish » 31 Dec 2020, 14:10

You're typically avoiding answering the question by finding an irrelevant obstacle. Anyway, the question makes complete sense. Why would anyone want to draw Jesus or anything else in the world then? Maybe for artistic or educational purposes? Just take any other religious or other group that gets offended by arbitrary aspects of speech if you're specifically uncomfortable with Islam. I am really just curious how people would address the issue of anything in language being potentially seen as offensive by someone. I also think this is staying completely on topic of the thread. Anyway, if you want me to stop talking about this, just tell me to stop, I have no intention to forcefully spam people with anything they're not interested in. I would just hope this will make some people realize how selective and biased they are in their ideology and will help them to think more critically.
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Re: SJW's ruined software development.

Postby Julius » 31 Dec 2020, 15:15

As others have already alluded to, I think you should start to critically examine your own thought process which seems highly biased and stuck on an arbitrary and quite self-serving definition of free speech.

And yes, don't push it further please.
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Re: SJW's ruined software development.

Postby drummyfish » 31 Dec 2020, 16:12

Okay, thanks at least for hearing me out and not banning me right away like raddle, I appreciate that and it's why I am keeping my faith in libre gaming community. See you in less controversial threads... happy new year :-)
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Re: SJW's ruined software development.

Postby Lyberta » 31 Dec 2020, 16:39

onpon4 {l Wrote}:School shootings don't stand up against the system, they attack victims of the system.

I would argue that plenty of teachers are complicit and deserve to die.

onpon4 {l Wrote}:This is not in any way to the detriment of power structures, in fact it enhances power structures by giving those in power an excuse to grab more power ostensibly to "protect" their subjects (see how airport "security" became ridiculous after 9/11).


That means that we need to do enough terrorist attacks that airport "security" can't be passed most of the time. Then people will rise up. Or they don't. In which case life wasn't worth living anyway.

Moderator note: please no more death threats on this forum!
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Re: SJW's ruined software development.

Postby Lorenzo der seltsame » 11 Jan 2021, 04:58

The government's in the worst are trash cans and
most people are ignorant the word is full of trouble and still people have time to be a gay, seriously I can't understand that... yeah to not get crazy in this
word is really an art I hope the topic cools off a bit
that's the last thing I have to say.

with great respect Lorenzo.

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if someone calls you so...
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Re: SJW's ruined software development.

Postby onpon4 » 11 Jan 2021, 17:38

people have time to be a gay, seriously I can't understand that...

How do you have time to be straight?
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