Starting a better movement

Starting a better movement

Postby Lyberta » 26 Jun 2021, 04:30

So, I quit free software movement and I've been back to proprietary software, mostly Steam, for some time. I had time to reflect on both proprietary software, free software and open source and why I dislike all of them. I finally came to a conclusion that I would prefer to start a better movement grounded in reality that avoids all the mistakes previous movements did. Temporary name for this movement is "socialist software". It is based on a few core observations:

  • Capitalism is bad but it will take a while to get rid of it.
  • Most people use software for entertainment.
  • Most people use the software on the phone and use touchscreen as a primary means of interacting with software.
  • Most people don't read EULAs or fine print.
  • People (including software developers) deserve things needed for survival such as food, clothes, shelter, healthcare, safe space and entertainment.

Thus are the core principles:

  • If software is designed for entertainment, it shouldn't discriminate against proprietary content but provide means to shield the user from malicious features of proprietary content such as DRM and analytics.
  • Software shouldn't discriminate. Examples: Terminal-only software discriminates against intellectually and/or mentally disabled people. It also discriminates against people using phones and tablets. Git and PGP discriminate against women and transpeople who don't want their deadname to be stored anywhere.
  • Software and its source code should be freely redistributable. There shouldn't be any restrictions against modifying software and distributing modified versions. Distribution on the Internet shouldn't be behind a paywall.
  • There should be means of securing well-being of socialist software developers. Via donations or otherwise.
  • Software should be written in a way that encourages cooperation among developers. This includes not using elitist languages such as C and providing extensive documentation. Intellectually and/or mentally disabled software developers are still software developers.

This is very work in progress. I will probably alter a bunch of things after I get to the coherent position. But I want to hear your thoughts on what I have right now.
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Re: Starting a better movement

Postby bzt » 26 Jun 2021, 05:31

This is so bad, that it is almost good :-)

Lyberta {l Wrote}:So, I quit free software movement and I've been back to proprietary software, mostly Steam, for some time. I had time to reflect on both proprietary software, free software and open source and why I dislike all of them.
Then maybe your issue isn't with software licensing at all.

Lyberta {l Wrote}:I finally came to a conclusion that I would prefer to start a better movement grounded in reality that avoids all the mistakes previous movements did.
No, you've already made even bigger mistakes, no offense. :-)

Lyberta {l Wrote}:Most people use software for entertainment.
Not me, and I can name at least 100 people any time who don't either.

Lyberta {l Wrote}:Most people use the software on the phone and use touchscreen as a primary means of interacting with software.
Nope, I don't have a phone for one. And what about typical gamer PCs and consoles also without touchscreen? What has the input device to do with your movement? What if in the next years BCI gets a breakthrough? Should that kill your movement right on the spot?

Lyberta {l Wrote}:Most people don't read EULAs or fine print.
That's true. This is were well-known licenses come into play. It's enough to say a software is GPL, 3-clause BSD, MIT, etc. and people don't have to read the EULA, because they'll know just by the name of the license what to expect.

Lyberta {l Wrote}:People (including software developers) deserve things needed for survival such as food, clothes, shelter, healthcare, safe space and entertainment.
Haha, you say your "movement grounded in reality"? Do you know what reality is? About 80% of the human population doesn't have these things, and they work 12 hours a day or more for $1-2. That's the reality.

Lyberta {l Wrote}:Thus are the core principles:
I don't see how they reflect to your observations at all. How do you plan to solve the issues mentioned above? Why would your "principles" help with those?

Lyberta {l Wrote}:Software shouldn't discriminate. Examples: Terminal-only software discriminates against intellectually and/or mentally disabled people. It also discriminates against people using phones and tablets. Git and PGP discriminate against women and transpeople who don't want their deadname to be stored anywhere.
This made my day, I'm still laughing. Seriously, what's transgender people's issue with PGP??? And what about graphical-only software? How come that those not discrimiate?

Lyberta {l Wrote}:If software is designed for entertainment, it shouldn't discriminate against proprietary content
...
Software and its source code should be freely redistributable.
Ooooops, you did it, you have discriminated against proprietary content as that isn't freely redistributable.

Lyberta {l Wrote}:There shouldn't be any restrictions against modifying software and distributing modified versions.
Ooops, you did it again, you have discriminated against proprietary content as that isn't freely modifiable either.

Lyberta {l Wrote}:This includes not using elitist languages such as C
Wow, never heard that before, what's your issue with C? It's one of the oldest, and most known languages with probably the biggest platform support any programming language ever had. Why do you want to tie your movement with a programming language? What if your beloved language gets extinct like Cobol or D?

Lyberta {l Wrote}:and providing extensive documentation.
Yeah, this is an expectation no matter the license (open sourceness, distributability, etc.) nor the programming language. But I'll go a step further, good software should be intuitive, so that users don't have to look everything up in the documentation all the time.

Lyberta {l Wrote}:Intellectually and/or mentally disabled software developers are still software developers.
YES! And we should allow blind people to drive too! (sarcasm) What's your point with this? Not everybody can be an opera singer, movie star or a wrestler either, now why on earth would software development be different? Just like anything else, it is not for everyone. For example if you're not good lookin', or you can't learn dialogues you won't have a chance to become an actor. Likewise someone without the required intellect has no chance of becoming a programmer, and that's fair and that's how the things are and should be.

Lyberta {l Wrote}:But I want to hear your thoughts on what I have right now.
It is funny, I enjoyed it much. But there's no way anybody will take this seriously, for a moment there I thought it's 1st April.

Cheers,
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Re: Starting a better movement

Postby Julius » 26 Jun 2021, 09:29

bzt, you are new here... Lyberta happens to have strong opinions on certain topics. This will not end well if you start a discussion like that.
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Re: Starting a better movement

Postby bzt » 26 Jun 2021, 11:52

Julius {l Wrote}:bzt, you are new here... Lyberta happens to have strong opinions on certain topics. This will not end well if you start a discussion like that.
Thanks for the heads up. I've now read some of his (her?) old posts, should have I known what I know now, I wouldn't make that post humourous. I honestly thought this is a joke, so I responded in a funny way. Mea culpa.

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Re: Starting a better movement

Postby Lyberta » 27 Jun 2021, 02:46

bzt {l Wrote}:Then maybe your issue isn't with software licensing at all.


It's bigger than that. Hence the movement.

bzt {l Wrote}:
Lyberta {l Wrote}:Most people use software for entertainment.
Not me, and I can name at least 100 people any time who don't either.


Cool but I counter that with billions of views YouTube videos have, views on Twitch streams, Steam stats, etc.

bzt {l Wrote}:Nope, I don't have a phone for one.


Then how do you deal with services that require a phone number? What if you are on the street and need to contact someone?

bzt {l Wrote}:And what about typical gamer PCs and consoles also without touchscreen?


Again, a minority compared to phones and tablets.

bzt {l Wrote}:What has the input device to do with your movement?


Most of the free software is terminal only. And almost nobody uses terminal. Which makes free software useless.

bzt {l Wrote}:What if in the next years BCI gets a breakthrough? Should that kill your movement right on the spot?


It will definitely make 30+ years of free software even more useless. I own a PinePhone which runs GNU/Linux and I can tell that it has less features than a dumbphone from 2003.

bzt {l Wrote}:This is were well-known licenses come into play. It's enough to say a software is GPL, 3-clause BSD, MIT, etc. and people don't have to read the EULA, because they'll know just by the name of the license what to expect.


You forget that most people don't know what GPL, 3-clause BSD and MIT are.

bzt {l Wrote}:Haha, you say your "movement grounded in reality"? Do you know what reality is? About 80% of the human population doesn't have these things, and they work 12 hours a day or more for $1-2. That's the reality.


The word "deserve" doesn't mean that people have it already. It means that if people don't have it, it is an injustice. And this is much better than Richard Stallman's "freedom is not about the price" position where he prefers free software developers to starve to death.

bzt {l Wrote}:Seriously, what's transgender people's issue with PGP???


I had to make a new PGP key because my deadname was an integral part of the key for some (transphobic) reason. Oh look, PGP was created by a white man Phil Zimmermann. I guess that explains that.

bzt {l Wrote}:And what about graphical-only software? How come that those not discrimiate?


Good observation. It does discriminate against 0.0000001% of people who use terminal or shell scripts. I guess people should provide terminal interfaces after GUI is usable, if they can afford.

bzt {l Wrote}:Ooooops, you did it, you have discriminated against proprietary content as that isn't freely redistributable.


Copyright is a system of oppression created by evil capitalists for the sake of evil. Bypassing copyright is an ethical and a moral thing to do. If content is covered by DRM, DRM should be removed.

bzt {l Wrote}:Ooops, you did it again, you have discriminated against proprietary content as that isn't freely modifiable either.


When I wanted to write a trainer for GTA IV, a proprietary closed source game, I had to pirate a copy of IDA Pro and learn IA-32 assembly language to write a DLL injection that modifies machine code in memory during runtime. I also had to use someone else's code that removes memory scanning done by Games for Windows - LIVE. It was pretty tedious but doable. So unless there is a hardware protection where you have no access to even machine code, everything is freely modifiable.

But the original meaning of my words is that it is about socialist software, not the content it works with.

bzt {l Wrote}:Wow, never heard that before, what's your issue with C? It's one of the oldest, and most known languages with probably the biggest platform support any programming language ever had.


C has almost zero ways to help the programmer. As a result, C is the source of the most bugs and security vulnerabilities in the world. C is like an abusive husband that constantly tells you to "git gud" or go back in the kitchen. Clearly, the world would be better without C (and abusive husbands).

bzt {l Wrote}:Why do you want to tie your movement with a programming language? What if your beloved language gets extinct like Cobol or D?


I don't have a beloved language. But I can see where the language itself is a source of problems. I was actually working with ISO C++ Standardization committee because I wanted to make C++ sane. But the committee was too full of white men to listen.

bzt {l Wrote}:Yeah, this is an expectation no matter the license (open sourceness, distributability, etc.) nor the programming language. But I'll go a step further, good software should be intuitive, so that users don't have to look everything up in the documentation all the time.


I was actually talking about documenting the source code because there are no intuitive programming languages that I know of. And people are not psychic.

bzt {l Wrote}:YES! And we should allow blind people to drive too! (sarcasm) What's your point with this? Not everybody can be an opera singer, movie star or a wrestler either, now why on earth would software development be different? Just like anything else, it is not for everyone. For example if you're not good lookin', or you can't learn dialogues you won't have a chance to become an actor. Likewise someone without the required intellect has no chance of becoming a programmer, and that's fair and that's how the things are and should be.


Uuu, such pure ableism and sanism. By looking at your avatar I conclude that you are a white male, most likely abled, cisgender and heterosexual. You may be delighted to hear the opinion I have on people like you. You know, some people say that #NotAllMen but you're a great counterexample.
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Re: Starting a better movement

Postby Ntech » 27 Jun 2021, 03:48

Lyberta {l Wrote}:Capitalism is bad but it will take a while to get rid of it.

Out of all the observations, I agree with all of them, except this one I half agree with. It will take a while to get rid of Capitalism, if indeed that is what happens, but I'm not convinced of its badness. I've grown up under Capitalism, and although it is not ideal, history has provided many examples of worse. Time has yet to prove a capable alternative. That is my personal opinion.

As for the core principles, I agree with all of them, and foresee only one difficulty which I shall talk about later. In general, the modification of existing software, and the design of new software, to be more inclusive and accessible is definitely a thing everyone must keep in mind. Definitely, 2021 is not 1987 and there are languages much better suited to writing programs than C, in regards to development time, simplicity, accessibility, safety, headaches, and design.

The only difficulty I foresee is allowing software to be freely distributed and at the same time ensuring that the developer gets the food, clothes, shelter, entertainment, etc. that they deserve. From personal experience, working on opensource software is far from rewarding. I have, in fact, not gotten a single penny for my work in the field. Right now, the this-for-that payment method has successfully facilitated the exchange of product for the mutual benefit of both creator and consumer, and although I agree there are cases where software should be freely given to people, I also recognize the right of a developer to provide for themselves by charging for their product. I'd be very happy to see a functional alternative, though.

Brainstorming, I can imagine maybe a foundation for the furthering of socialist software which accepts donations, has a governing body, and distributes donated funds towards the development and design of software in accordance with socialist software principles. The members of the governing body will be diverse, the terms the body is founded upon will be inclusive, and each member will be equally represented.
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Re: Starting a better movement

Postby bzt » 27 Jun 2021, 07:39

Ok, I've decided to answer once. Either you understand what I'm saying, or you don't, there's no point in repeating myself.

Lyberta {l Wrote}:Then how do you deal with services that require a phone number?
I don't use such services. I can always find a free replacement service.

Lyberta {l Wrote}:What if you are on the street and need to contact someone?
I make arrangements apriori, just like how all the people did before this keep-a-spyware-on-you-at-all-cost-on-your-own-cost madness started. It works remarkably well.
Oh, and ever since I've thrown out my smartphone, my memory and perception got sharper, and recovered my sensing of direction and distance (which I haven't realized that I've lost at the time, because GPS was always there).

Lyberta {l Wrote}:Again, a minority compared to phones and tablets.
I don't want to be rude, but by your argument gay people are minority so we should not care about them, right?

Lyberta {l Wrote}:Most of the free software is terminal only.
WRONG. Have you seen Gimp, OneShoot, Audacity, Audacious, VLC, MPlayer, Firefox, Netsurf, FlareRPG, 0AD, Battle for Wesnoth, Pingus, KoboDeluxe, Extreme Tux Racer, or - god forbid mentioning that here - SuperTuxKart? Just a few that popped into my mind...

Lyberta {l Wrote}:And almost nobody uses terminal.
WRONG. I use terminals all the time because they are MUCH more productive than any GUI. Same with all my friends and collegues, they all use terminals every day.

Lyberta {l Wrote}:It will definitely make 30+ years of free software even more useless. I own a PinePhone which runs GNU/Linux and I can tell that it has less features than a dumbphone from 2003.
Yeah, just admit, you have absolutely no clue what BCI stands for. Hint: Brain-Computer-Interface.

Lyberta {l Wrote}:The word "deserve" doesn't mean that people have it already. It means that if people don't have it, it is an injustice.
About this, we agree.

Lyberta {l Wrote}:And this is much better than Richard Stallman's "freedom is not about the price" position where he prefers free software developers to starve to death.
WHAT? Where did you get that from? You are criticizing free software without knowing what that is. Have you ever heard Stallman's phrase "Free as in freedom, not as in free beer"? Stallman never wanted developers starve to death.

Lyberta {l Wrote}:I had to make a new PGP key because my deadname was an integral part of the key for some (transphobic) reason.
Dear Lord, did it ever occured to you that names are integral part of the key not because of some shady transphobic reason, but because of security so that bad people can't just replace the names on keys?

Lyberta {l Wrote}:Oh look, PGP was created by a white man Phil Zimmermann. I guess that explains that.
It only explains that you're racist. Please stop doing that. The nationality and skincolour of Phil has nothing to do with the security features of PGP.

Lyberta {l Wrote}:Copyright is a system of oppression created by evil capitalists for the sake of evil. Bypassing copyright is an ethical and a moral thing to do. If content is covered by DRM, DRM should be removed.
Look, it is you who want developers starve to death, not Stallman. If copyright is bypassed, how would the people get paid for the product they worked for?

Lyberta {l Wrote}:C has almost zero ways to help the programmer.
Yeah, because C is only used by programmers who know what they are doing. I love that it's not getting in my way, nothing like the other high level languages. With C++ for example, you'll spend most of your time with figuring out how to solve memory ownership issues, unearth unintented, and completely hidden in source polymorphisms causing bugs in runtime and waiting, always waiting for the compiler to finish compilation.

Lyberta {l Wrote}:As a result, C is the source of the most bugs and security vulnerabilities in the world. C is like an abusive husband that constantly tells you to "git gud" or go back in the kitchen. Clearly, the world would be better without C (and abusive husbands).
WRONG. Take a look at the CVE tickets. There are lot more Java, C# and Rust bugs than C. Mostly because C is used by experts, while other so-called-developer-friendly languages are used by people who don't know what they're doing. It is a common misconception that a language can replace the developer's experience. No, it cannot, nothing can replace the hard-earned experience.

Lyberta {l Wrote}:Uuu, such pure ableism and sanism. By looking at your avatar I conclude that you are a white male, most likely abled, cisgender and heterosexual. You may be delighted to hear the opinion I have on people like you. You know, some people say that #NotAllMen but you're a great counterexample.
Yes I am, and what has this to do with anything I've said? You do realize, how racist and heterophobic you are right? When you can't answer to a question and then you hopelessly try to attack with something that you think will personally insult me, do you know what people will call you?

Ok, this was my last response to you. Hope you understood at least part of what I've said, and for your own sake you start working on your racist and heterophobic attitude, because that won't do any good for you on the long run. Bests!

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Re: Starting a better movement

Postby bzt » 27 Jun 2021, 07:46

Ntech {l Wrote}:
Lyberta {l Wrote}:Capitalism is bad but it will take a while to get rid of it.

Out of all the observations, I agree with all of them, except this one I half agree with. It will take a while to get rid of Capitalism, if indeed that is what happens, but I'm not convinced of its badness. I've grown up under Capitalism, and although it is not ideal, history has provided many examples of worse. Time has yet to prove a capable alternative. That is my personal opinion.
Actually Capitalism is bad because it values uncontrolled greediness, which is just like cancer on society. Profit maximalization above human lives and everything else is at least morally questionable, but put that aside, you don't have to be a engineer or a nuclear physicist to comprehend that a forever growing economy simply can't be realized on a planet with painfully finite resources. Such a forced growth will end with a horrible disaster, no doubt.

About no viable alternative we agree, but that doesn't make Capitalism good.

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Re: Starting a better movement

Postby drummyfish » 27 Jun 2021, 08:44

Pretty bad but good luck anyway @Lyberta :)
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Re: Starting a better movement

Postby Lyberta » 30 Jun 2021, 13:44

Ntech {l Wrote}:but I'm not convinced of its badness.


Just look at corporations: Google, Apple, Facebook, Microsoft spy on their users and sell their data. Nestle is performing mass infanticide for the sake of selling their milk formula. Tesla is subjecting their workers to vile racism, homophobia and grave injuries. AstraZeneca is killing millions of trauma survivors by giving them deadly arrhythmia and diabetes.

Many millions of people died so corporations could profit. Corporations have most likely killed more people than Holocaust did.

Ntech {l Wrote}:The only difficulty I foresee is allowing software to be freely distributed and at the same time ensuring that the developer gets the food, clothes, shelter, entertainment, etc. that they deserve.


Tax the rich. Give people Universal Basic Income. Voila.

Before we arrive here - services like Patreon and campaigning.

bzt {l Wrote}:I don't want to be rude, but by your argument gay people are minority so we should not care about them, right?


Proprietary software markets to everyone. Free software is written by extra smart white cis het males for extra smart white cis het males. Hence 99.9% use proprietary software and 0.1% who are pretty much exclusively white cis het males use free software. We need software usable by the majority of people.

bzt {l Wrote}:WRONG. Have you seen Gimp, OneShoot, Audacity, Audacious, VLC, MPlayer, Firefox, Netsurf, FlareRPG, 0AD, Battle for Wesnoth, Pingus, KoboDeluxe, Extreme Tux Racer, or - god forbid mentioning that here - SuperTuxKart? Just a few that popped into my mind...


This is a small thing compared to user base of bash, cat, dd, systemd, apache, gcc, make. If you search for any Linux tutorial in 95% of cases you'll see a bunch of command lines you're supposed to type into terminal. People can't even agree on desktop environment.

bzt {l Wrote}:WRONG. I use terminals all the time because they are MUCH more productive than any GUI. Same with all my friends and collegues, they all use terminals every day.


Observer bias much? Just because you and maybe 50 more people you know use terminal doesn't mean the majority use terminal. Billions of people use touchscreen. Millions use mouse and keyboard. Thousands use terminal. And for me and other 99% of people terminal is the worst way to use any computing device.

bzt {l Wrote}:WHAT? Where did you get that from? You are criticizing free software without knowing what that is. Have you ever heard Stallman's phrase "Free as in freedom, not as in free beer"? Stallman never wanted developers starve to death.


I guess his propaganda implies that software must be sold. A ridiculous thing in the age of Internet. Still, he never addresses the well-being of developers and his organization is actively brainwashing people into giving him money.

bzt {l Wrote}:but because of security so that bad people can't just replace the names on keys


What bad people? A key is a number. That number matters. Name doesn't.

bzt {l Wrote}:The nationality and skincolour of Phil has nothing to do with the security features of PGP.


If he was a woman or trans he'd figure out that people change names all the time. And if Linus Torvalds wasn't a cis man, he'd never put names in Git hashes.

bzt {l Wrote}:Look, it is you who want developers starve to death, not Stallman. If copyright is bypassed, how would the people get paid for the product they worked for?


UBI, Patreon, etc.

bzt {l Wrote}:Yeah, because C is only used by programmers who know what they are doing.


No, so far I only seen novices use C because of its reputation and they create software full of bugs. Sure, if 0.000000000001% of programmers can write OK-ish C, that's good for them but it doesn't bring anything for the rest 99.999999%.

bzt {l Wrote}:There are lot more Java, C# and Rust bugs than C.


Citation needed.

bzt {l Wrote}:Yes I am, and what has this to do with anything I've said? You do realize, how racist and heterophobic you are right?


Let me quote the Joker movie:
You get what you fucking deserve!


Your post was nothing but offensive elitism, ableism, sanism and observer bias. And you got the response you deserved.
Last edited by Lyberta on 01 Jul 2021, 08:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Starting a better movement

Postby Lyberta » 01 Jul 2021, 08:04

Upon reflecting more on the issue, I figured out that taxing the rich, giving everyone UBI and reforming compulsory education are the most important things, they solve the biggest problems and have nothing to do directly with software. Software comes after we solve those major issues. Therefore in the current state of the world any movement focusing on software is close to useless. My time and resources are better spent on politics.
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Re: Starting a better movement

Postby drummyfish » 01 Jul 2021, 09:05

@Lyberta I agree with you on taxing the rich + UBI, in my view that should be the #1 priority for our society now. This is relevant because you can't really separate technology and politics nowadays, this would very much have a positive effect on technology.

UBI would free people from the necessity to use proprietary/abusive technology (at least to a big degree) as many people simply have to use proprietary technology for work, which they could now avoid. It would take a lot of power away from companies over the people -- companies can nowadays dictate too many condition because they simply give people work, often people have no choice of workplace and they can't afford to be jobless, let alone demand things like using free software at work. Such companies would have to make work conditions acceptable otherwise people could just leave, which most people can't do today. Basically companies would have to start to "behave" a bit as people wouldn't need them so much. Furthermore many people (myself included) could just decide to not go to work at all and instead write free software for free in the "spare time", without any profit motive, which is the only way a truly ethical software can be made. Imagine taking away the struggle of making living from the truly talented programmers and artists, imagine what they could achieve if they could fully focus on their art.

I could go on, but yeah, this would be great.
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Re: Starting a better movement

Postby bzt » 01 Jul 2021, 23:00

drummyfish {l Wrote}:@Lyberta I agree with you on taxing the rich + UBI, in my view that should be the #1 priority for our society now.
I agree. Too bad it's not going to happen, because of a few, short-sighted power hungry aholes :-( If history taught anything, it is that such a change cannot happen without eliminating the ruling class entirely first (which means bloodshed).
drummyfish {l Wrote}:This is relevant because you can't really separate technology and politics nowadays, this would very much have a positive effect on technology.
Yes you can. Politics likes to lie about its importance, but in fact you can separate everything from politics, and it would be for the best. When politics is involved, everything goes sh*t and technology is no exception (from history, see despotism, crusades, the cold war, splitting Berlin or Korea in two halves, etc. or just recently the vaccination).

Liberta {l Wrote}:My time and resources are better spent on politics.
Let's be realistic here. With your attitude and being a racist, heterophobic women you have zero chance against Putin. But good luck!

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Re: Starting a better movement

Postby drummyfish » 02 Jul 2021, 15:11

bzt {l Wrote}:Too bad it's not going to happen, because of a few, short-sighted power hungry aholes :-( If history taught anything, it is that such a change cannot happen without eliminating the ruling class entirely first (which means bloodshed).


I'm still hoping we can avoid bloodshed, I definitely wouldn't support that as I am strongly against any violence. It seems very difficult to achieve now but automation will be pushing towards UBI and there exist many non-violent ways such as non-cooperation (strikes) to further support the cause. 5 day 8 hour work week also probably seemed unrealistic in the past, and now it's taken for granted. Let's hope it will be similar with UBI.
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Re: Starting a better movement

Postby bzt » 02 Jul 2021, 15:58

drummyfish {l Wrote}:I'm still hoping we can avoid bloodshed, I definitely wouldn't support that as I am strongly against any violence. It seems very difficult to achieve now but automation will be pushing towards UBI and there exist many non-violent ways such as non-cooperation (strikes) to further support the cause. 5 day 8 hour work week also probably seemed unrealistic in the past, and now it's taken for granted. Let's hope it will be similar with UBI.
Yes, as for hoping I'm hoping too, but I have no illusions. I'm wise enough to know that those greedy bastards will never give up their power and wealth willingly, automation and UBI or not, people will have to take that away from them by force, otherwise it's just going to get worse. During this pandemic, the rich just got richer, the poor got poorer, which just proved that the rich are sociopaths (if not pscyhopaths) because they had absolutely no empathy towards the people dying and loosing their jobs. It is just not reasonable to think that they will ever give up their wealth willingly, if even a pandemic couldn't change their hearts, what's more, they took the opportunity to steal even more from the poor.

What would be fair, is one single wealth tax rate. No tax exemptions, no exceptions, no loopholes, no "rich" taxes nor "poor" taxes, the same single wealth tax percentage for everyone. That way the people with less income would pay less, and the rich would pay more. Nobody could have a say against that system nor escape it through tricks because everybody would have to pay exactly the same percentage no matter what. Now that would be fair, but that's not what they are planning. What's on the table now will never work even if they manage to push it through. (FYI: the average middle class worker pays about 40% of tax. The rich pay only 3.4%, but for example Buffett only paid 0.1%. Add that 2% - 3% tax that Biden proposed, and that's still nowhere near the tax rate of the common folk, it is literally nothing.) Oh, sorry I wondered away, sorry for being off-topic a bit.

Cheers,
bzt
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Re: Starting a better movement

Postby Lyberta » 08 Jul 2021, 09:44

bzt {l Wrote}:With your attitude and being a racist, heterophobic women you have zero chance against Putin. But good luck!


I'm not gonna do anything in Russia. Russian people better die under Putin. I have deep hatred for Russian people. I guess I'm not just racist, sexist, heterophobic, cisphobic, endosexphobic, right-handedphobic and neurotypicalphobic, I'm also nationalist!
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Re: Starting a better movement

Postby Julius » 08 Jul 2021, 11:00

This topic has run it's course...
“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.” - Philip K. Dick
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