Artist's vission

[Elvano]

Hey all,

While wandering through this project, I've noticed a couple of things that I found strange.
Artists/designers make wonderfull models and, who knows better than the creator how it should look like?

Yet, when models are implemented there seems to be something influencing their appearence.

Examples:

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The tilesets which are imported are based upon the regular tilesize (as used in DK)
Skorpio made an awesome-looking tileset, yet when it got implemented it got scaled down, losing quite some of it's awesomness
http://opengameart.org/content/3d-dungeon-tileset

(Increasing the tilesize in the map also gives less tiles needed to be stored in the map-file)


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Creature models should by default have the optimal proportions.
Therefor there should be no need, for when a creature is added, to specify a scale for every axis seperatly.
(Better yet would be if artists/designers would use metric values so a scale option wouldn't be nessesarly to begin with)


Anyway, my point being; please do not destroy the designer's vision by manipulating models through code.

[Danimal]

i can understand the creature bit, in DK they grew bigger the higher their level was, so a lv2 imp was way smaller than a lv 8 imp. This could be avoided by adding a proper presentation of creatures life, mood and level. But i think it adds some "taste" to the game; the only problem is controlling size ingame, try letting your imps mine everything around your base without getting in figths, you will see one of them grows to titanical size and starts killing every enemy by itself; the reason is its level go throught the roof.

In DK creatures had only levels from 1 to 10, i think we have way more.

[Elvano]

i can understand the creature bit, in DK they grew bigger the higher their level was, so a lv2 imp was way smaller than a lv 8 imp

This should be solved by a general scale (not axis bound) within the game itself then.
Still the creatures should better be original size at scale 1:1.
There is no need for someone to specificly give a scale to creatures.
Instead you can declare a 'growing factor' within the race/species specifications. ;o

[Bertram]

Hi,

We have 100 levels indeed, AFAIK. I don't think making the creature "grow" is that bad. This is especially looking good on Kobolds btw.

But I could understand it looks weird on a knight, for instance. Maybe if I lower a bit the scale factor it would do the trick?
What else would you propose?

[Danimal]

Yes, nothing double the wall size please, and, am i the only one that thinks wall are too high? I also like the scaling by level mechanic

[oln]

I think the downscaling of tiles might have to do with positioning or some other technical issue rather than an attempt by programmers to alter the look. It might have been to make them neatly line up to the coordinates. I agree that the walls are way too high, maybe they are only scaled in two directions.

[nido]

Artists/designers make wonderfull models and, who knows better than the creator how it should look like? Yet, when models are implemented there seems to be something influencing their appearence.

There have already been mentioned a couple of explanations regarding to why your particular examples turned out as they have, and how to fix this; though this would not solve the bigger question of what happens. Firstly, I would say that any changes in appearance which would make the models look less awesome then the originals should be considered a genuine bug.

Before my next argument, let me state my experience with 3d design and OpenGL is severely limited and probably off on a few points. To that I request anyone who knows differently to correct me should they notice an error.

There few cases where this might be the effect of a design flaw. For example, the model will ultimately be rendered by the environment it finds within opendungeons, with the shaders of opendungeons. A preview image of a knight in shining armour can look exceptionally cool in a light room with a lot of lightsources in choice places and the renders' favourite shader rendering the scene; but using a less accurate but better performing shader, and only very few light sources in suboptimal locations and mostly brown wall as a reflection, the cool effects become underwhelming.

This is just an example and I am not saying this is the case for any particular one of the problems you have noticed. I do not know of how things have been implemented in the past, but in the future I think the modeller should be involved in the progress of getting his or her model into the game.

[Bertram]

This is just an example and I am not saying this is the case for any particular one of the problems you have noticed. I do not know of how things have been implemented in the past, but in the future I think the modeller should be involved in the progress of getting his or her model into the game.

I also think artists should be made more responsible of having integrable art.
See no offence in this but for instance, the new dwarf won't work in OD atm because its material script isn't updated.

I don't think one shall blame artists for that. Not at all, I rather think that's because we lack proper documentation on how to do it.

Also, I think I didn't get it. Should the walls be resized or something?

[oln]

Also, I think I didn't get it. Should the walls be resized or something?

The walls looks like they have been stretched to be taller compared to the renders skorpio made when showing off the tileset.

[Bertram]

Oh.
@Skorpio: Can you tell us whether this is coming from the mesh files? (I'll check the code next week.)

[Elvano]

Also, I think I didn't get it. Should the walls be resized or something?

The walls looks like they have been stretched to be taller compared to the renders skorpio made when showing off the tileset.

The tilesets which are imported are based upon the regular tilesize

For some strange reason someone decide to use 4 tiles for every regular tile space.
Thus, the walls are scaled down on the width and depth.

Why are we using 1/4th tiles anyway?
It seems more a burden to me than it does any good.

And if a model doesn't meet the demands it should not be up to the game to fix each individual case.
Only when a technical error/difference influence the general implementation (such as a conversion error in blend -> mesh) the game engine may step in. Otherwise it should just be up to the modeler, or at least being asked to him/her to fix it first.

[Bertram]

Hi Elvano,

Design workflow questions apart, I found this in the tile creation code:

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const Ogre::Real RenderManager::BLENDER_UNITS_PER_OGRE_UNIT = 10.0;
node->setScale(Ogre::Vector3((Ogre::Real)(4.0 / BLENDER_UNITS_PER_OGRE_UNIT),
                                     (Ogre::Real)(4.0 / BLENDER_UNITS_PER_OGRE_UNIT),
                                (Ogre::Real)(12.0 / BLENDER_UNITS_PER_OGRE_UNIT)));

This means the tiles are indeed divided by four in the X/Y axices, and made taller (x1.2) on the Z axis.

As a very first step, on could change the tile scale in the Z axis to keep making it look correct.
I must I first thought that the tiles were made high on purpose though, because in my mind walls should be higher than creatures.

Do you want me to post screenies of different Z scaling? And if so, what scaling would you want?

Best regards,

[Skorpio]

The base area of the new tiles was originally 3m*3m and the height was around 3.4m. Then the others thought the tiles were a bit too wide so I scaled them down to 2.5m^2, but that also meant the height was scaled down to around 2.8m (a bit too low IMO). I think Paul scaled them again to fit them on the original 1m^2 grid.

[Bertram]

Thanks for the explanation, Skorpio. Then, what height would you guys want?

[Danimal]

Just my opinion but i think the height of our biggest creature (troll) plus 1/4, also, no creature at max level should be bigger than our walls.