New model

New model

Postby Skorpio » 08 Jun 2010, 19:33

I'm not sure if you read the rest of the forum, so maybe you've missed this thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=400

That program is really great.

I'm still working on that monster and the UFO:AI guys probably want to use it in a future version, but I think it would fit in OD as well. Here's a new screenshot of the monster (I've changed the shoulder pads already, so that they show more of the bump map):
Monster4.jpg
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Re: New model

Postby andrewbuck » 09 Jun 2010, 19:05

That looks really neat. I like that we now have a couple of monsters (this one and the Kreature) which are very different from the just generic creatures that most games use (goblins, knights, etc). These other creatures are fine but it is ones like these that really give the game its own character.

I assume this other animation system you are using has facilities to export either directly to OGRE or to a format blender can read, if not we will need to figure out how to handle that. Also, roughly how many polys are in this mesh, it looks quite high although I assume you are probably planning to do the low poly + normal map trick. EDIT: I see from your other thread this is the plan. Looks good.

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Re: New model

Postby svenskmand » 09 Jun 2010, 21:46

Regarding the monsters that is very different from the original DK and general fantasy I would look at the creatures that Shiny Entertainment has done in Sacrifice and the Earth-Worm Jim games, I really like how they are different from anything else in games :), the same applies to MDK :)

I think we should begin to look at how exactly we want the game to look and feel. The alignment system appears to be what everyone wants so that is settled, but the look of the game and which creatures we should have is not. Anybody have any ideas for a general design concept for the creatures?

I have been thinking about a backstory where we have more different sources of creatures, but it is still in the classic fantasy universe. If we could come up with something more original that would be very nice :) What do you all think?
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Re: New model

Postby charlie » 10 Jun 2010, 00:38

I think some of these models still need more work. It looks a bit too deformed and crumpled. What are the big black things? I think there's a difference between character and messy and this is a little messy still.
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Re: New model

Postby Skorpio » 10 Jun 2010, 16:46

I don't think that I can improve the model much more. The tail could use a few more polys, so that it looks smoother, but the model already consists of 1100 triangles and our limit was 1000. The normal map is my main problem. After baking the NM there are some seams, which are not very visible though, and I'm not sure how to remove them or if they can be removed at all.
I'll maybe adjust the colors a little bit, because I find the red is a bit oversaturated, and the blue stripe should be replaced by the team color.

The big black things are probably eyes, ;) similar to cancer or compound eyes.
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Re: New model

Postby andrewbuck » 10 Jun 2010, 17:27

The 1000 polygon limit should not be taken as a hard limit. Ultimately all that matters is how many polys are on screen at once. For powerful creatures where there are only 1 or two onscreen we can have higher poly-counts. Where the numbers really matter is things like weaker creatures that are deployed in large numbers (imps, goblins, etc).

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Re: New model

Postby charlie » 10 Jun 2010, 17:30

Some suggestions:
* Make the horns look like horns - thinner, sharper, horn-like colour
* Recess the eyes so they look less Mr Potato head and more Evil creature
* Reduce the polys on the tail, make it look less like rocks glued together and more like a tail that is useful as a weapon - reduce the lumpiness
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Re: New model

Postby Skorpio » 10 Jun 2010, 18:49

The creature doesn't have horns.

charlie {l Wrote}:* Recess the eyes so they look less Mr Potato head and more Evil creature


Now we've come to an interesting question: What is an "evil" creature? If you want a stereotype horror film monster it probably has to have big teeth, horns, evil eyes, etc., but actually every animal could be an evil creature. It's a question of your point of view what's evil. Hedgehogs and moles are probably evil creatures for earthworms. So there are either no evil creatures at all or almost every creature is evil, because they eat other creatures. TBH I find the term "evil creature" very ridiculous.

As for the eyes of the model, I'm not eager to change the mesh structure, but maybe I'll paint over the texture a little bit. I want the eyes to look like these: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... adkils.jpg
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Re: New model

Postby svenskmand » 10 Jun 2010, 22:52

Skorpio {l Wrote}:As for the eyes of the model, I'm not eager to change the mesh structure, but maybe I'll paint over the texture a little bit. I want the eyes to look like these: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... adkils.jpg


I think you should use normal maps and spectacular lighting for that, to get the right effect.

By the way did you manage to get normal maps to work in the engine?
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Re: New model

Postby andrewbuck » 11 Jun 2010, 15:53

I haven't really looked into normal maps recently, however everything I have seen in the past seems to suggest that there is no work to be done in the engine to use normal maps as it is all done by OGRE. I think it just requires adding another block to the materials file.

As for this mesh. Skorpio has said it doesn't have horns, although both Charlie and I seemed to think it does. The brown curved things on its head look quite a lot like them. Because of this I had though it looked sort of like a "fighting bull", i.e. a bull bread to be a fighter much like warhorses were bread for that purpose. It would be fairly easy to paint those curved things to be horns, and I think it might add to the effect, either that or they need to be modified to look more like something else so it is not confusing (I am assuming if they are not horns they are supposed to be ears or antennae).

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Re: New model

Postby svenskmand » 12 Jun 2010, 00:30

Does Ogre support spectacular lighting?
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Re: New model

Postby charlie » 16 Jun 2010, 22:23

Skorpio {l Wrote}:I want the eyes to look like these: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... adkils.jpg

The problem here is that this is an underwater creature, so can have eyes like that. Eyes are sacks of fluid. They can't just jut out for a land creature.

I am all for crazy new creatures, but they have to mostly make sense. You can't have a 1 legged pixie with an arm that wraps around it's torso 4 times. Some thought has to go in to the purpose of each defining characteristic.

For instance, with your creature, the tail... why so lumpy? Big bones for striking? Why would they be needed close to the body - only surely at the tip of the tail makes sense.

That's my opinion. Everybody else's may differ. I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade, just attempting to constructively criticize and help you improve your approach to creating some more wonderful creatures for this game.
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Re: New model

Postby andrewbuck » 16 Jun 2010, 23:57

Charlie raises a good point about the eyes and tail. We should keep the biological basis of these creatures in mind; most people (myself included) know very little formal biology, but we all have an intuitive sense of when something looks a bit odd, even if we can't put our finger on it. My background is in physics and it is the same way, if the physics in a game is different, people immediately catch on, even though they can't tell you what it really is that is incorrect.

Anyway, regarding the creature here, Charlie's idea about bigger lumps near the end of the tail would work pretty well with my suggestion earlier of making the brown things into horns. Its primary attack could be using its horns like a bull and its secondary attack could be using its tail like a stegosaurus. As for the eyes, I kind of like the bug eyed idea maybe just make them not quite so pronounced. More like how a horse's eyes bulge out a fair amount but are still mostly contained.

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Re: New model

Postby svenskmand » 17 Jun 2010, 00:06

andrewbuck {l Wrote}:... My background is in physics ...

I thought that you where a fellow computer scientist, well one learns something new everyday -- which is wonderfull :)
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Re: New model

Postby andrewbuck » 17 Jun 2010, 00:21

I studied physics and computer science in college, I was planning to get an undergrad in both and then do my PHD in physics, using the CS degree to back a career in computational physics (using computers to simulate physical phenomena). I was about 3/4 done with CS and maybe 2/3 done with physics when I quit school last year to work for a wind power company. Unfortunately there is not a lot of room for physics in OpenDungeons (something like a racing game has a lot more), but it is still fun to work on. DK was a much better game than any racing game.

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Re: New model

Postby svenskmand » 17 Jun 2010, 00:30

But you have you master then right? You just skipped the Ph.D. right?
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Re: New model

Postby Skorpio » 17 Jun 2010, 00:37

charlie {l Wrote}:The problem here is that this is an underwater creature, so can have eyes like that. Eyes are sacks of fluid. They can't just jut out for a land creature.


That's wrong. For instance snails and land crabs have eyes that jut out. Of course the actual eye is only a part of the top of the snail tentacles, but I never said that the black parts of my creature are only eyes without muscles or something similar. I've already painted the lower part of the eyes in skin color, so they look a bit more like snail tentacles.

And I'll probably smooth the tail, but that'll cause some problems for me.

BTW not everything in nature is logical or useful.

andrewbuck {l Wrote}:Its primary attack could be using its horns like a bull and its secondary attack could be using its tail like a stegosaurus.


That won't work, because of its anatomy. I think it should spit acid or have some other ranged attack.

Edit: Hey, now since I mentioned snails, I think the creature is some kind of a snail! Finally I know what it is. :D
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Re: New model

Postby andrewbuck » 17 Jun 2010, 01:54

svenskmand {l Wrote}:But you have you master then right? You just skipped the Ph.D. right?


No, I never even finished my undergraduate work as I left early.

Skorpio {l Wrote}:BTW not everything in nature is logical or useful.


I didn't mean to imply that we had to stick to that strictly, it is afterall a fantasy game, I just meant that it makes a good guide. If you think about how a creature would use a particular feature "in the wild" it helps you build a personality for the creature and can be useful in the design. A good example of this might be something like a sexually selected feature (for example the peacock's tail, although there is some debate over this). If a feature is sexually selected then it is probably brightly colored, very obvious when you look at the creature, and likely only present in one sex. In contrast, something like horns or tusks are often more utilitarian so they are drab colored, etc. It just makes for more realistic creatures if you try to picture them in a particular environment, and living in a certain way (what do they eat, are they territorial, etc).

As an aside, do we want to possibly have two sexes for some (or possibly all) of the creatures? It doubles the number of models to make although the second one will likely be a modified version of the first since most will look quite similar. It is maybe something to think about when the game is more developed.

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