Creature lists and concept art for them

[svenskmand]

I have been going through the creatures list in the wiki, and it needs some serious clean-up; e.g. we have mechs (as I have complained about before) and other wierd stuff that does not really belong in OpenDungeons. So I have decided to compile a totally new creature list, and the first faction I have started with is the easiest to make, namely the list for the undead which are very known in the litterature and popular culture. The list of creatures that I have compiled can be seen in the wiki, and please notice that I have included images that I think either are "spot on" on how the creature should look, or at least gives a good impression/idea of how it should look. I have not but added images for the zombie and the necromancer yet, but they are so typical that you should not have a hard time imagining how they should look. Also I have not decided on a worker yet, but I will come up with something.

Discussion of my suggestions should go in this thread. I will later modify this first post when I have compiled lists for the other factions.

[Danimal]

Hello, i have been reading the creatures just for fun, and i think some of then should be reasigned or changed:

Undeads:
Weak spellcaster - Death acolite (or Plague acolite)
Weak spellcaster OR Strong spellcaster - Vampire
Weak builder - Undead gnome
Strong fighter - Zombie and Bone golem
Strong spellcaster - Necromancer
Guard - Ghost knight (why not some kind of legless wraith?) and Squeleton shooter
Special creature - Lich (i see it far more awesome than just necromancer, its a step above in undeath so why lower ranking?)

Villains:
Scout - Black raven

Constructs:
Scout - Change Giant eye into Floating or flying eye (kinda like the ones in fallout)
Guards and Strong fighter - Since they dont have mages you should give then lots of this:
- Strong fighter: Razor blade (high Power and speed, low hp and defense) and iron brawler (high def and hp, low speed )(Mech is too much sci-fi, steam punk like robot would be better)
- Guards: Shooter (magic muskeet like weapon, same stats as razor) and heavy gunner (granade launcher like weapon and flame launcher for melee, same stats as iron brawler)
-Strong spellcaster replacement - Hibrid (why not rename to Overmind?) the actual function plus researching
-Special creature - Terminator (a real match for the others elites, hibrid is far too pasive)
A good example on what style they shoud have:


Corpars:
Weak spellcaster - Mole-man chaman (c´mon a pegasus underground? no space to strech its wings, in any case should be a nigthmare, just make the chaman a fast runner or able to levitate )
Guard - Naga or medusa instead of griffin(which is a kind of pure melee creature), so Villains would have to do with only giants as strong builders.

As final notes:
-Pit demon needs a huge scary sword and serpent tongue sticking from its mouth
-Kreatur should be made insect-like, right now it looks like something made by a necromancer
- Is there a point in having Super creatures when you already got special ones?, i think its redundant, they should become summons instead, they would be too unbalancing along with specials, and summons would became more unique and cooler.
-Dragon seems so much more oriented to Villains than Corpars (money love and no morals) while Shadow Crawler kind of matchs the wild behavior of Corpars, so i would demote succubus to just caster and make dragon their special creature and Psychopath their summon, and put Shadow crawler as Corpar summon.

Well, i hope you read this and take some of my advices, creatures are either too few or random on some sides and much more developed on other, a bit of balancing and changing (for coolness shake) could be great.

Salutes.

[svenskmand]

Wow I really like the style of that concept art I think it really fits well with how I imagined the Constructs Is it something you made? Do you know the guy who made it?

[andrewbuck]

I did a search on tineye and it looks like that is just an image from the web but I agree that it is a good example of the constructs.

I also like a lot of the suggestions for the creature list, although the note about winged creatures underground is not something we may not need to worry about as there was some discussion about having above ground as well. I would suggest that for the new creatures you have listed here just add them on the wiki where they belong and leave the old names there as well (unless of course you are moving a creature from one spot to the other, then just make the change). This way we will accumulate extra names which we may then want to use elsewhere later on. I think eventually we will have quite a few creatures and likely there will be more than one in each position anyway.

If you don't feel comfortable editing the wiki, Danimal, then I can make the changes on your behalf as well. In any case feel free to keep posting ideas/comments here.

-Buck

[Danimal]

That image is from an old "dungeon and dragons" rts game "dragonshard" so using it is a no-no, but i think it nails the concept of constructs, i updated the wiki with the new names, and deleted some of the generics used for Constructs (like mech or android) please reinsert them if you like, but i saw them quite bland. Also changed Hibrid to overmind and put Terminator in special creatures as well as dragon on Villains. You should decide what to do about super creatures, as i said before i think special ones already fill that role, super creatures should be made into summons.

[svenskmand]

If you have any ideas for concept art that would also be greatly appreciated, please post them here and if you also post the source file we can give our comments and maybe add features to the sketches.

[Danimal]

Hi again, first of all i dont know a thing about drawing, and perspective is an unknown lady to me, but i can try and make some concepts (ugly looking of course), i wont be able to do it often since i have tests next month, but after that days of pure doom i could help regulary. I could also model it in 3D, but time is scarce for me rigth now so...

Now see a concept for mechanical miner:


Which way would you like to have it to make modifications? uploaded into a DD maybe?

[svenskmand]

What did you draw it in? Gimp? I would like that. But it looks like you drew it in paper and scanned it, so a tiff or png would be fine also.

[Danimal]

Yes, it was made on paper and scanned, just rigth click and save image if you want to put modifications. When i have time ill try to do something with photoshop and this concept.

[oln]

That was pretty cool indeed

[Skorpio]

The miner concept looks nice, only the tank tracks make it look a bit too "high tech". But I guess with wheels he would look rather ridiculous. (like the early cars)

[svenskmand]

I think we should try to use ball wheels for constructs that does not have legs. Like the concept I made for a construct worker (even though we will not have workers other than Kobolds with the recent gameplay ideas/changes). The wheels I am talking about can e.g. be seen on the Audi in I, Robot:

[Danimal]

I kind of cant see how to use that kind of wheels... can you made a concept or something using them on the style you want for constructs? Because if you think tanks tracks are high tech, this is like sci-fi tech compared.
Also, what are the changes you mention on gameplay?

[svenskmand]

The gameplay change is described in this thread, but the thing about not having workers other than Kobolds is mentioned in this message.

I made a sketch of a construct worker at some point, it is in this message. The sketch is pretty bad but hopefully you get the idea, here it is:

The wheel is at the bottom of the worker. So it has one wheel which it balances on. Most of the wheel is not visible as it is a ball/sphere which is inside the worker, and only a small part of it sticks out in the bottom of the worker.

[Skorpio]

I've made a quick 3D version of the miner. There was only a problem with the tracks. They were too high and touched the arms so I had to lower them a little bit.

[svenskmand]

The model is very true to Damiels drawing , but I still think we should avoid this 1900's tech and go for something more in the style of Damials linked image:


Also as discussed we talked about droping the workers and only having the Kobolds, so I do not think worker units should be on our list of things to do right now. I think we should instead begin to make lists that we all agree on about which creatures each faction should have, then we should begin to sketch them through concept art. We need that list to begin getting some content made, which I think is what we need right now.

[svenskmand]

Danimal could you expand a bit upon how these units should look and what abilities they have?

Hello, i have been reading the creatures just for fun, and i think some of then should be reasigned or changed:

Undeads:
Weak spellcaster - Death acolite (or Plague acolite)
Weak spellcaster OR Strong spellcaster - Vampire
Weak builder - Undead gnome
Strong fighter - Zombie and Bone golem
Strong spellcaster - Necromancer
Guard - Ghost knight (why not some kind of legless wraith?) and Squeleton shooter
Special creature - Lich (i see it far more awesome than just necromancer, its a step above in undeath so why lower ranking?)

I am here interested in the acolite, lich and necromancer. If you want to give some descriptions of how you think the other units should be that would also be nice

I see the Necromancer as a spellcaster that can cast some attack spells that does direct damage to opposing creatures, but also spells like turncoat that makes a enemy creature fight its own. Or some weaken spells that lowers stats of the enemy creatures. I think he should be stronges in the non-direct aggressive spells like the weaken and turncoat spells and the like, and not so powerfull in the spells that does direct damage to the enemy, also he can do an extend summon creatures, maybe rise some fallen creatures with limited stats to fight for him. This makes him a great supporting spellcaster, but not one you can use on his own as he would quicky be overrun by the enemy.

The Lich I do not know about, I only know them from Warcraft III, where they are also spellcasters, but I do not know any mythology about them.

The acolite I also know nothing about, except that it is a worker unit in Warcraft III.

[Danimal]

Hi, Skorpio thats a pretty nice one , regarding having no workers, i think this model can still be used as one of the weak fighter troops (Rock muncher, Patrol drone), it just needs a few additions to turn it into a warrior type, add some heavy looking shoulder pads for armor, change left arm hand-drill for a morning star ball, and enlarge right hand drill to make it appear more spear like. Also add a frontal rake(not sure about the name) like old trains used but full of spikes. Something like this:



Regarding it looking not very advanced, i think it fits well, the reason being that you wont employ lots of materials or time in making what look like mass produced cheap cannon fodder, the way i see it, is that the other units will gain in complexity like in the D&D example as they are more powerful (weak units - simple basical design, strong/special units complex design).

Did any of you play disciples 2? if you do you will be able to see some very interesting units. The concept there that you can promote them to an upper class, that is not used here but its almost the same, since lets say, we have weak warrior squeleton and strong warrior undeath knight. Being the basic units somewhat generic but becoming more complex and cool as they are promoted.Play it for a bit and you will understand. So i thing weak units should be relatively simple in design (but cool anyway) and stronger ones more complex looking.

I do think that you should decide on the final units that are going to appear, since changing them constantly is not a good idea. Balance in their number for each species is the key, you dont want one species having way more types of units than others. So im totally on that with you Svenskmand. Also, you can spice up the wiki using an already existing resource "Battle for wesnoth" all their content is open source, so you can use coinciding unit portraits (Heroes and villains basically but a few of the other) on the wiki.

Ugh long post, svenskmand about the undead units (images of disciples 2 units):
acolite: think of him as someone starting to learn dark magic, a weak looking sorcerer who can use low damage spells and can poison or do some low debuffing.

Necromancer: someone who has quite good knowledge of black magic, low damage spells, strong debuffs and able to raise dead enemy units as basic undead units. More of a support unit.

Lich: a necromancer resurrected as an undead, no debuffing or support skills, just really strong damage spells and medium HP.

I also changed a bit the units in the wiki later:

Weak fighter: Skeleton, Zombie
Strong fighter: Death Knight, Bone golem, Goul, Skeletal dog
Strong spellcaster: Necromancer, Vampire
Guard: Wraith knight, Squeleton sniper
Special creature: Liche

[svenskmand]

Regarding you sketch for the construct, I would rather have the constructs looking something like the golden army characters from Hellboy 2 (google "golden army" in picture search and you get lots of pictures of them)

which is also in style with your posted image of the two orange/golden constructs above we just have to be creative in making some different units over the same theme. The idea is that the unit has a hearthstone that controls the metal (gold and iron) and fulfills the will of the construct unit. If you dismember the unit it will slowly reconstruct if left alone, only way to deal with it is to destroy the heartstone OR remove all the metal from it (which your workers can use to put into your gold reserve) but this way the enemy can reuse the heartstone in another construct unit.

Ok then we agree on what a necromancer and lich is , the Acolite also sounds like a good idea

I think we should drop the skeletal dog, it does not really fit in. Also what is a squeleton sniper?

[Danimal]

Those are some interesting images, i like the concept even if they look really sci-fi/retro looking. Squeleton sniper would just be a squeleton with a bow, making him the phisical ranged unit undead lacks. (think of him wearing a battered archer armor and a bow made of bones, coupled with arrows also made of sharpened bones). If you agree i think its time to put all units here and start the final choosings of units for each race, and comment what role the finalist will have.

[svenskmand]

The squeleton (do you mean skeleton here?) sniper sounds, good although I would call him a skeleton archer then. I think of a sniper as a guy with a rifle, which is not really suitable for our game. But I think the skeleton archer is a good idea

Then the list is more or less complete. What about an abomination as a super/special creature also? Like this guy:

A guy stitched together from different corpses? We could call him "Monstrousity"

[Danimal]

First lets start with:
Undead race:

Scout:
- Skeleton bat, not much to say, fast and crappy.
I suggest changing this for a flying skull + spiral cord (make it look like the motion of an eel swimming) Votes for this?

Weak fighter:
- Skeleton, fast, medium to good damage, low hp (battered and falling to pieces light armor (leather + chainmail))
- Zombie, slow, low damage, good hp, heals hp eating corpses

Weak spellcaster:
- Plague acolite, low damage spells, low hp, fast, and can poison or do some low debuffing

Strong fighter:
- Death Knight, an all rounder, good hp, damage and speed (fully black armored squeleton, big ass but broken in the middle sword)
- Bone golem, slow, medium damage, really high hp
- Goul, damn fast, good damage, medium to low hp, heals hp eating corpses, can poison (there is a good one in opengameart)

Strong spellcaster:
- Necromancer, low damage spells, strong debuffs and able to raise dead enemy units as basic undead units, medium HP
- Vampire, medium damage spells, good hp, steals HP, fast

Guard:
- Wraith knight, a ghostly armored knight, without legs(floating) and armed with a scary crossbow, low speed, high HP,high damage, can stun (terrify enemies)
- Squeleton sniper, squeleton with a bow, battered archer armor and a bow made of bones, coupled with arrows also made of sharpened bones, high speed, medium damage, medium health, poison effect(or bleeding)

Super creature:
- Liche: no debuffing or support skills, just really strong damage spells and medium HP.

Summons:
Atrocity (Strong mindless fighter - can feed on corpses to increase life time and HP - Hates water - Don't fight it with weak creatures)

Weak builder:
- Undead Gnome, poor little guy, low stats on everything, builds.

Strong builder:
- Revenant OR Werewolf, i say revenant, somehow i dont see a werewolf having the patience to put together any traps or mechanics, revenant would be something very pharaonic mummy alike, with good stats overall, builds.

like i said before merge and erase all super/special creatures since they are alredy filling that place. So i say leave only supers.
Lets hear everyone give their oppinions.

[svenskmand]

First lets start with:
Undead race:

Scout:
- Skeleton bat, not much to say, fast and crappy.
I suggest changing this for a flying skull + spiral cord (make it look like the motion of an eel swimming) Votes for this?

I have never liked the flying bat idea, so I vote for the flying skull, maybe even make it burning or have some other strange aura around it.

Weak fighter:
- Skeleton, fast, medium to good damage, low hp (battered and falling to pieces light armor (leather + chainmail))
- Zombie, slow, low damage, good hp, heals hp eating corpses

Weak spellcaster:
- Plague acolite, low damage spells, low hp, fast, and can poison or do some low debuffing

Strong fighter:
- Death Knight, an all rounder, good hp, damage and speed (fully black armored squeleton, big ass but broken in the middle sword)
- Bone golem, slow, medium damage, really high hp
- Goul, damn fast, good damage, medium to low hp, heals hp eating corpses, can poison (there is a good one in opengameart)

Strong spellcaster:
- Necromancer, low damage spells, strong debuffs and able to raise dead enemy units as basic undead units, medium HP
- Vampire, medium damage spells, good hp, steals HP, fast

Guard:
- Wraith knight, a ghostly armored knight, without legs(floating) and armed with a scary crossbow, low speed, high HP,high damage, can stun (terrify enemies)
- Squeleton sniper, squeleton with a bow, battered archer armor and a bow made of bones, coupled with arrows also made of sharpened bones, high speed, medium damage, medium health, poison effect(or bleeding)

Skeleton Archer is a better name than Squeleton sniper, imo.

Super creature:
- Liche: no debuffing or support skills, just really strong damage spells and medium HP.

What about the Abomination/Monstrousity? I really liked that guy

Summons:
Atrocity (Strong mindless fighter - can feed on corpses to increase life time and HP - Hates water - Don't fight it with weak creatures)

Weak builder:
- Undead Gnome, poor little guy, low stats on everything, builds.

How should the Gnome look?

Strong builder:
- Revenant OR Werewolf, i say revenant, somehow i dont see a werewolf having the patience to put together any traps or mechanics, revenant would be something very pharaonic mummy alike, with good stats overall, builds.

Yes Revenant is definitely the best of the two.

like i said before merge and erase all super/special creatures since they are alredy filling that place. So i say leave only supers.
Lets hear everyone give their oppinions.

Yes lets just have super creatures and not also special creatures.

[Danimal]

Sorry about the many times repeated "squeleton" typo, but i seem to mix my language and english way of writing it.
Abomination is cool, make him the summon, he already fits the description.
The gnome should just be the gnome from constructs but looking dead(dirty clotes and skull for face).
Ok, now you do another faction.

[svenskmand]

The Abomination is a very powerful creature, and summons should not be very good, imo, so I think the Abomination should be a supercreature.