The forge and upgradable weapons

[Danimal]

We have come to the point that coding this is a possibility, this could be tricky but i would like to keep the player interaction in this as simple as possible to avoid micromanagement.

My idea (old):
Traps/doors take a lot of time/workforce, once placed to build or to be replaced, blacksmiths start working on it asap, no traps are stored, they just produce the needed one. Meanwhile, when no trap/door is requested to build they are forging weapon upgrades ("upgrade points"), that are stored into a room called "Armory" composed of a weapons racks that gets fuller of weapons as more points are created (it would be a graphical representation of how many "upgrade points" are stored).

Any creature that can upgrade weapon and is dropped on armory (or maybe they check automatically? ) tries to update first, weapon then, shield; if the creature has a low level weapon and there is enougth produced "upgrade points" it will try to update weapon, to the best one affordable.

An Armory should be able to store a fixed number of "upgrade points" per tile, so a small Armory (3x3) can only store enougth of them to upgrade to a weapon a rank, while bigger ones could store enougth to upgrade a weapon to epic rank in one go.

Weapon upgrade levels became available after a research, ex: "Good" is open by default with Armory room research, "Masterful" is unlocked after a research in red tree, "Magical" after a reseach on blue tree and "Epic" requires "masterful" and "magic" researched to be unlocked.

Alternate idea:
After looking at the new forge/trap system, it can be made so Armory houses one weapon rack each 3x3 (like all rooms) but forge will create specifically the weapon that some kobold will drag from forge to armory. Each rack has enougth space for one weapon of each kind and quality. Ex: one rack houses a sword, mace, bow, shield and axe of "good" quality(because the others havent been researched), if a creature comes and takes a sword, the forge start automatically to create a new sword to fill the empty space, equally if you just created the armory, your blacksmiths will rush to create all missing weapons on the armory and fill all racks IF they there are no traps to make, traps would have priority over weapons.

So if you want to have ready a lot of swords you would need to create a bigger armory that has more racks, so each racks contains one sword (among the other weapons).
When you research a new weapon level, for example "masterful", each rack gains the ability to house one weapon of each kind of masterful quality (so each rack would hold 5 "good" and 5 "masterful") same for "magical" and "Epic"; so in the end each rack would house 20 weapons of four different qualities for 5 weapon types (4 swords good, masterful, magic, epic; 4 axes good, masterful, magic, epic...).

Its more complex and we will need to visually represent each existing weapon on rack even if by some model/code trick.

What are your opinions?

[hwoarangmy]

I like the idea of different weapon types available through research.
But IMHO, the main question is how to choose the creature that will have the weapon. If I forge a weapon, I will want my most powerfull creature to take it. And as a player, I won't appreciate if one of my weakiest creature that I was wanting to kill gets in the armory and takes my epic sword...

[Danimal]

By game design i want to make it so tier 1 creatures cant upgrade weapons, tier 4(Epic creatures) come with their own, so tier 2 and 3 are the target of weapon upgrades. How should we control when they upgrade? i dont know, weapons wont be such a gamebreaker anymore, but the keeper that decides to research weapons instead of say, spells, will have some extra edge (pun there ) at the cost of any other researcheable ability , so the logical would be to reward him by making weapon creation relatively fast so all creatures would get upgraded at a good pace, and even if your soldier takes that epic that you wanted for your paladin, doesnt really matter since in 20 seconds a new epic will be ready.

[eugeneloza]

Maybe a level-dependent requirement will be fine? E.g.:
Lvl.1 basic weapon.
Lvl.2-3 good weapon.
Lvl.4-5 masterful weapon
Lvl.6 and above - epic.
But then a 'lighter' version of the weapon should be there in the armory for weaker creatures.

OR

If a creature is dropped into the blacksmith it either creates its own weapon or upgrades the one holding | the same way as its skill does in the training hall. No weapon is stored in the armory, it just controlls how far can the weapon be upgraded.
And maybe some storage (additional room) also possible if the player wishes to replace a sword for a mace for his goblin - to store the old one and reuse it as needed | also to have a 'treasure' possibility, e.g. finding a hyperepic sword uncreatable in other way OR a good set of epic weapons OR trophies from the enemy (e.g. to find an epic sword of a dead unit which the player cannot create himself yet).
This one would be much more simple to implement.

[hwoarangmy]

Having weapons not too expensive to not care about weak creatures to take it seems ok to me. As well as letting creatures forge their own weapons. So I will let you guys choose what you prefer ^^

[Bertram]

Hey there,

From what all I could read, here is what I like:
- The different armor/weapons levels that can become nice visuals in game.
- You can decide what creature you want to improve by dropping it in the "improve my armor" room.
- The creature will then improve its weapon(s) to the max level available.
- The room size will make the improvement slots vary, as usual.

Here is what I dislike (No offence intended, we're just brainstorming):
- The mix between the Armory and the Forge is unclear, and from a user point of view, I'm already lost, eh.
- Storing random weapon is somewhat the same thing I'm finding funny with the trap current behaviour. I'm feeling like we're storing useless stuff.
Still no offence intended. It's just my own point of view after some games on the 0.5.0 dev version.

So first, Questions:
- We can have 2 weapons, or 1 weapon and 1 shield. Should it stay the same?
- Should we add armors then? (1 slot. Let's not overdo it, IMHO.)
- Should we make the creatures stop creating traps right away when there is no traps waiting to be (re)placed?
It looks weird for me to see "free" traps made in the forge, but be able to place one even unrelated only by after buying them.
Either we should be able to place the made ones only, or the creatures should only make (and remake) them once bought and present in game, IMHO. WDYT?

Here is my somewhat design-breaking proposal, born from all your ideas:
- As Danimal proposed, certain creatures come with their weapons (armor?), other can't have those. So we reduce the ones in need to tier 2-3. The heart of Keeper war.
- We change the current forge role to become a weapon (armor?) forging room only. The meshes can be kept but this is a new room, with a new logic.
- As eugeneloza proposed, we drop a creature to make it forge its weapon. (armor?)
So that the Keeper decides and it's not too heavy to manage. If the keeper wants to have everyone upgrade, he'll take all of them once in a while and drop all of them there.
If the room is completely unused and a creature is idle, it can also go there. So, at least, one creature always upgrade if possible as a slower background task.
- Instead of adding an armory, we turn the current forge room into a 'workshop', designed only to make traps when one drop creatures in it, or when deactivated traps
have been placed on game. (The code can stay the same but the models need a change in that case.)
This way we have a true firm grip on what we want between better weapons and traps.
- The rooms availability order and icons might need to changed then.
- The workshop room would require an icon.

What do you think guys?

Best regards,

[Danimal]

- We can have 2 weapons, or 1 weapon and 1 shield. Should it stay the same?

Yes, but i want it to be restricted to certain dual wielder creatures by nature, to give them some nice animations

- Should we add armors then? (1 slot. Let's not overdo it, IMHO.)

NOOOO!!!!!!! are you thinking of hiring a full time modeller? if not, i dont see how to

- Should we make the creatures stop creating traps right away when there is no traps waiting to be (re)placed?
It looks weird for me to see "free" traps made in the forge, but be able to place one even unrelated only by after buying them.
Either we should be able to place the made ones only, or the creatures should only make (and remake) them once bought and present in game, IMHO. WDYT?

I agree, i dont like having unused ones in forge

Your proposition is a nice compromise, the Forge should stay as it is and be dedicated to weapon making and Worshop be added along with new models for it (since the hot irons fits better a weapon making room, common machinery will look better on a workshop), im not too fond of creatures forging their own weapons since well... that implies all of them are master blacksmits, but it can be overlooked. At least as long as we made clear that some creatures excel at making traps while others are just so-so, to justify having them around even if they are poor warriors.

[Bertram]

Hey,

Yes, but i want it to be restricted to certain dual wielder creatures by nature, to give them some nice animations

Ah, then a max weapon held parameter or something will have to be added, I guess?
Design thinking, IMHO, the best way would be to add 0 to 2 weapon slots in a creature depending on that param, but we can have a look at later.

NOOOO!!!!!!! are you thinking of hiring a full time modeller? if not, i dont see how to

Eh eh. Don't worry, it was just a question. I was myself wondering about the amount of modelling it may represent. (Must be high.)

I agree, i dont like having unused ones in forge [...]
Your proposition is a nice compromise, the Forge should stay as it is and be dedicated to weapon making and Worshop be added along with new models for it (since the hot irons fits better a weapon making room, common machinery will look better on a workshop),

Thanks, then IMHO I would make it so creatures only make the needed traps and stop when there is no deactivated traps waiting.
This also means the logic will have to check against traps waiting in the rooms and traps deactivated, but IMHO, it's feasible.
What do you think about it, hwoarangmy?
If everyone is ok, the first step will be to get some workshop models that fits trap making and do the model switch, and rename forge to workshop. Then, the forge room can be copied to an empty logic room, using the current models.

im not too fond of creatures forging their own weapons since well... that implies all of them are master blacksmits,

Yeah, at least we have an excuse they don't forge others weapons and we can rely on the fact they know how to simply take care of themselves. We could make it so the poorest the creature, the poorest the improvement, for instance, to stay relevant.

At least as long as we made clear that some creatures excel at making traps while others are just so-so, to justify having them around even if they are poor warriors.

Eh eh. Arf, and as an evil Keeper, I just learn they now want to be paid.

[hwoarangmy]

Thanks, then IMHO I would make it so creatures only make the needed traps and stop when there is no deactivated traps waiting.
This also means the logic will have to check against traps waiting in the rooms and traps deactivated, but IMHO, it's feasible.
What do you think about it, hwoarangmy?

In reality, when a creature wants to use the forge, a check is done on every accessible trap to know if there is one needing a crafted trap. If yes, production begins. If not, production stops. The problem is that if there is a trap needing an item and a creature in the forge finishes it, it will check if there is another need. But because the just finished trap is not being carried to the trap (since it has just been finished), at least the trap that was needing is still in need and the creature will start crafting a new one.
The logic is that the trap only says that it doesn't need a crafted trap after it is being carried. That's because the crafted trap can be stolen or be carried somewhere else (as it is not attributed when crafting).
One not too complex way to achieve what you want might be to add a timeout when a crafted item is done and only accept for a new crafted item after that time. That would avoid being stuck if the crafted item is stolen or if the trap is destroyed/recreated before being carried.

If everyone is ok, the first step will be to get some workshop models that fits trap making and do the model switch, and rename forge to workshop. Then, the forge room can be copied to an empty logic room, using the current models.

Hmm, not sure we should add useless rooms until we choose to implement the logic.

[Bertram]

In reality, when a creature wants to use the forge, a check is done on every accessible trap to know if there is one needing a crafted trap. If yes, production begins. If not, production stops. The problem is that if there is a trap needing an item and a creature in the forge finishes it, it will check if there is another need. But because the just finished trap is not being carried to the trap (since it has just been finished), at least the trap that was needing is still in need and the creature will start crafting a new one.
The logic is that the trap only says that it doesn't need a crafted trap after it is being carried. That's because the crafted trap can be stolen or be carried somewhere else (as it is not attributed when crafting).
One not too complex way to achieve what you want might be to add a timeout when a crafted item is done and only accept for a new crafted item after that time. That would avoid being stuck if the crafted item is stolen or if the trap is destroyed/recreated before being carried.

I see. I'll be honest, I thought we could count, per trap type, the "accessible uncrafted traps" minus "the ones produced in the forge rooms" minus "the ones being carried by allied workers" minus "The ones being produced".
If that sum would be > 0, then we can start production of another one, if not, we try the next trap type.

This might be more complex, though, so feel free to tell any flaws you can see in that logic.
And using that logic, I'd assume the traps dropped on floor by workers killed are a potential bonus in production.

The other way to definitely fix that usability issue would be to make traps prebuilt at random, and you can then buy the ones produced at that moment. We would then add a counter under each trap icon to indicate each type's availability. Once one of the two is implemented, IMHO, we're done with the traps complete logic.

What do you think, guys?

Hmm, not sure we should add useless rooms until we choose to implement the logic.

Well, as the trap room would likely be the Workshop in a near future, I think we can make the switch asap. As for the forge, adding a useless room is not that useless as it permits to test how it visually looks before starting with its logic, IMHO, and that's what was done with the forge, library and crypt, btw, right?
That said, I know you've done a lot in implementing those rooms and I don't want to step on your toes of course.

Best regards,

[Danimal]

this would become the main model for the workshop:

http://opengameart.org/content/workbench

I still have to think what other to include

[hwoarangmy]

I see. I'll be honest, I thought we could count, per trap type, the "accessible uncrafted traps" minus "the ones produced in the forge rooms" minus "the ones being carried by allied workers" minus "The ones being produced".
If that sum would be > 0, then we can start production of another one, if not, we try the next trap type.

Well, I guess that could work to decide which trap to craft. Moreover, since it will only have to be computed when the forge has completed a trap and can build another one (and not when every trap will be activated), I think it should not hurt too much performances.
Actually, since there will probably never be thousands of crafted traps, we could even count crafted traps on our claimed tiles if we want.

The other way to definitely fix that usability issue would be to make traps prebuilt at random, and you can then buy the ones produced at that moment. We would then add a counter under each trap icon to indicate each type's availability. Once one of the two is implemented, IMHO, we're done with the traps complete logic.

That would be easier to do (as you know) but it will mean a lot of useless traps. Moreover, it would fill the forge with potentially useless traps. The good point being that it will make players to need to have big forges (as a 3x3 won't suffice if you want to have some traps).

Well, as the trap room would likely be the Workshop in a near future, I think we can make the switch asap. As for the forge, adding a useless room is not that useless as it permits to test how it visually looks before starting with its logic, IMHO, and that's what was done with the forge, library and crypt, btw, right?

Concerning the library and the crypt, I don't agree with you because AFAIK, they have been integrated when the models were ready. And the crypt even has the logic (even if the spawned creature is not there). And that makes a difference IMHO
But AFAIK, for workshop, we have no model and no logic. That's why I'm saying that. I would agree if Danimal said he had a model ready or if someone said he wanted to implement the forge (crafting weapons) logic.
That being said, I don't really care if you want to add it, you can go ahead. I was just thinking that as a player, I would find pretty disapointing to see rooms without specific room objects that are not used.

[eugeneloza]

NOOOO!!!!!!! are you thinking of hiring a full time modeller? if not, i dont see how to

Eh eh. Don't worry, it was just a question. I was myself wondering about the amount of modelling it may represent. (Must be high.)

Hmm... I've just thought of only texture being different for the armor (maybe vector map also). Maybe even just color-shifted version of the original without even need of drawing (e.g. brownish color - iron, yellow color - gold, blue color - magic).
However, I doubt its needed. Because it'll add a level of micromanagement and I still can't really well understand more global management routines yet.

[Bertram]

That would be easier to do (as you know) but it will mean a lot of useless traps. Moreover, it would fill the forge with potentially useless traps. The good point being that it will make players to need to have big forges (as a 3x3 won't suffice if you want to have some traps).

After thinking about it, I don't think it's relevant to have useless traps, it's more frustrating than anything else AFAIK when you cannot control your defense means in any game, and it often ends up as an excuse at the end of the lan, right? (I couldn't win because I had no <insert-favourite-trap-name>)
So, I'm all for the other solution (Which means counting the traps in need and produce those ones.) unless everybody doesn't agree.

Well, I guess that could work to decide which trap to craft. Moreover, since it will only have to be computed when the forge has completed a trap and can build another one (and not when every trap will be activated), I think it should not hurt too much performances.

Cool. Note that we might even have several, (btw, let's call them Workshops from now on), workshops and even in that case, I do think this will work.
If we can achieve this goal, I do think we'll have what will be the definitive trap making logic. \O/

Actually, since there will probably never be thousands of crafted traps, we could even count crafted traps on our claimed tiles if we want.

Why would you want to count this?

Concerning the library and the crypt, I don't agree with you because AFAIK, they have been integrated when the models were ready. And the crypt even has the logic (even if the spawned creature is not there). And that makes a difference IMHO

Sure, the rooms were integrated when the models were ready, I don't put that in doubt and I don't intend to add code for the next-gen forge, until we have the workshop models to replace the ones used atm. Sorry if i have been unclear about this.
Once Danimal has figured out the Workshop's models and has made them ready to get in, I think this will be the right time to make the forge->workshop renaming + model switch and then add the new forge room with current models.
Again, I think we both have spent enough time chasing dead code to now add some, right?

@Danimal: I like the model proposed but wonder whether we could make the table older/darker a bit, why not with a few blood stains here and here. ;> After all, testing traps doesn't go without risks. Mwahahaha.
There are also those ones in case it may help you:
http://opengameart.org/content/toolboard
http://opengameart.org/content/five-tools-cc0
http://opengameart.org/content/wood-barrels-pack
http://opengameart.org/content/barrels- ... d-a-pallet

@eugeneloza:
As for the armors, I do also think we all agree it's a no-go.
Btw, hwoarangmy implemented the oh-so-feared payday and just added support to tell when you lack treasury tiles to store gold.
I do think your voice will come to life in-game as soon as I have the time to add it. I'll check the sentences ready.

Best regards,

[hwoarangmy]

After thinking about it, I don't think it's relevant to have useless traps, it's more frustrating than anything else AFAIK when you cannot control your defense means in any game, and it often ends up as an excuse at the end of the lan, right? (I couldn't win because I had no <insert-favourite-trap-name>)
So, I'm all for the other solution (Which means counting the traps in need and produce those ones.) unless everybody doesn't agree.

I agree ^^

Cool. Note that we might even have several, (btw, let's call them Workshops from now on), workshops and even in that case, I do think this will work.
If we can achieve this goal, I do think we'll have what will be the definitive trap making logic. \O/

Yes, when I was talking about the workshop, I was talking about any of them. My point was that there won't be thousands of workshops checking traps at every turn so, the performance hit should be acceptable.

Why would you want to count this?

Well, it was in case you pickup a worker carrying a trap or if your workshop is partially destroyed. But we don't have to count them. I was just saying that we could

Sure, the rooms were integrated when the models were ready, I don't put that in doubt and I don't intend to add code for the next-gen forge, until we have the workshop models to replace the ones used atm. Sorry if i have been unclear about this.

Ok. I had understood that you wanted to copy/paste the forge (with its room objects) and use it as the workshop (integrating only the icon). But if you want to integrate only when we have the models (even without the logic), I agree.

Again, I think we both have spent enough time chasing dead code to now add some, right?

@Danimal: I like the model proposed but wonder whether we could make the table older/darker a bit, why not with a few blood stains here and here. ;> After all, testing traps doesn't go without risks. Mwahahaha.

Good idea

As for the armors, I do also think we all agree it's a no-go.

Yep, as eugeneloza said, I do think its a too much advanced feature for OD. This is just not adapted to this kind of game IMHO, at least for now.

Btw, hwoarangmy implemented the oh-so-feared payday and just added support to tell when you lack treasury tiles to store gold.
I do think your voice will come to life in-game as soon as I have the time to add it. I'll check the sentences ready.

Yep, it would be nice to hear our version of the legendary "It's Pay Day"
Moreover, it could be nice to add some funny sentences randomly played during game. For example, some that have been on the website's news or someting like "Your minions found a Knight lost in your dungeon. His skull will look nice on our dungeon heart".

[eugeneloza]

Oh no!!! PayDay... The thing I didn't like in the original D-Keeper... I remember I quit playing the campaign because I was left with no money (I usually prefer turtling strategy)...
Maybe there might be an alternative to gold like any other 'renewable' source? Like copper / one copper equal to 0.1 gold, but with (almost) infinite amount / poor gold viene (very long to mine). Or an option to 'pay for hiring creature' or 'free creature with daily salary'.
However, It's all about original DK gameplay. I just don't like 'rushing' strategy unless there is a strategical task to. Its just a personal preference that I don't like time limits

I'll be back in Kyiv around ~18th January, so soon I'll be able to record again

[Danimal]

Something like that, Gem mine will be an endless gold source, and casino will squezze back money from your creatures

[eugeneloza]

Great! That's much better!