2 ideas linked to gameplay

2 ideas linked to gameplay

Postby Bertram » 17 Dec 2014, 10:47

Hi there,

Two ideas popped up (again) in my mind and I wondered whether you would find them relevant.

I'll start with the simplest one (which was already discussed but still):
I wonder whether it would be a good idea to add support for some more text info for certain events such as:
- When one creatures dies.
- When one creature cannot create a bed. (but only every few minutes, I guess)
- When one creature is hungry and cannot find food. (same)

The second is more of a game play changer, and maybe hwoarangmy will want my head on a pike for that but, well, here we go: ;)
I wondered whether the way to build rooms could or should be made more like traps. I mean, you place transparent room tiles,
and your workers will actually "build" them, costing money (and why not also mana for advanced rooms.)

This is one is a game play changer, requires quite some work in term of core/creature logic and thus may not be worth it.
In term of game play, this would give the workers a more important place in term of room management.

Feel free to comment. :)
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Re: 2 ideas linked to gameplay

Postby eugeneloza » 17 Dec 2014, 11:09

I wonder whether it would be a good idea to add support for some more text info for certain events...

I saw in some earlier topics, there might be need in some voice acting? I might do that ;)
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Re: 2 ideas linked to gameplay

Postby Danimal » 17 Dec 2014, 11:38

Yes, the first one can be fulfilled with voice acting;
The second would mean slower gameplay in a dwarf fortress style, which shines when there are multiples basic resources to gather. Im neutral on this one, guess you have been playing keeperrl? :)
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Re: 2 ideas linked to gameplay

Postby Bertram » 17 Dec 2014, 12:28

Danimal {l Wrote}:guess you have been playing keeperrl? :)

Eh eh. not only. :) Actually, was playing 0ad a few days ago when it popped up. Anyway, it's just to see what kind of gameplay we want and whether this idea triggers fan love or just no interest.

eugeneloza {l Wrote}:I might do that ;)

Great to hear :) I would gladly make such sounds trigger. ;)
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Re: 2 ideas linked to gameplay

Postby eugeneloza » 17 Dec 2014, 13:31

What are the lines and format you need? Is WAV 48000/24 fine or prepared OGG 44100/16 would be better?
Should I take the lines from viewtopic.php?f=39&t=1321 or would you like to change something?
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Re: 2 ideas linked to gameplay

Postby Danimal » 17 Dec 2014, 20:25

can you give us a sample of your voice? please take no offense but maybe it wont be good due to things like accent, graveness and many others... just like i know mine would be totally worthless :D
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Re: 2 ideas linked to gameplay

Postby eugeneloza » 17 Dec 2014, 20:52

Yeah, I've already set up my studio together :) But it's too late here, I'll scare my neighbours :D
I think I also should put the carpet on the wall (was too lazy to do it before), it'll help with echo damping. And I'll have to put some nails in the wall to :).
So, I'll start with the 'test' lines at that old topic and try few different processing&characters.
P.S. Maybe should continue/restart topic on voice acting? Not to flood this one.
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Re: 2 ideas linked to gameplay

Postby hwoarangmy » 18 Dec 2014, 00:21

Bertram {l Wrote}:I'll start with the simplest one (which was already discussed but still):
I wonder whether it would be a good idea to add support for some more text info for certain events such as:
- When one creatures dies.
- When one creature cannot create a bed. (but only every few minutes, I guess)
- When one creature is hungry and cannot find food. (same)
Yep, that might be interesting. Some visual stuff on the minimap to show where it is happening could be cool to.

Bertram {l Wrote}:The second is more of a game play changer, and maybe hwoarangmy will want my head on a pike for that but, well, here we go: ;)
Beware, that may be true.

Bertram {l Wrote}:I wondered whether the way to build rooms could or should be made more like traps. I mean, you place transparent room tiles,
and your workers will actually "build" them, costing money (and why not also mana for advanced rooms.)

This is one is a game play changer, requires quite some work in term of core/creature logic and thus may not be worth it.
In term of game play, this would give the workers a more important place in term of room management.
Well, to be honest, I just don't really see what it adds to gameplay. As Danimal said, games will probably last more (which is not a good thing IMHO). Moreover, because we only have 1 ressource, there is no functional reason (if we had wood and stone, I wouldn't say that).
But if you want, we could imagine to need some workers to claim room tiles to turn them on. As I see kobolds, they are powerful magical creatures. They can carry very heavy creatures and dig very fast. They could be dreadful fighters if not too stupid to flee when attacked. So, IMHO, it could make more sense like that (but it would be more or less what you had in mind).

BTW, that's why I can't wait to see the Kobold replacement Danimal found ^^
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Re: 2 ideas linked to gameplay

Postby Bertram » 18 Dec 2014, 14:47

Ok, let's focus more on the voice and why not visuals on the minimap later, then.

We'll come back to the kobold room idea if it happens to be more relevant in the future.

BTW, that's why I can't wait to see the Kobold replacement Danimal found ^^

Me too. :)
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Re: 2 ideas linked to gameplay

Postby Bertram » 18 Dec 2014, 15:00

Btw, @eugeneloza:

I think a voice cast for the current objectives when they are met could be cool and not a burden in term of implementation.

Thus, those sentences or something could be done rather in priority: (Feel free to correct me if you see something wrong.)
-> You won!
-> Your team has won!
-> You were defeated!
-> One of your allies has been defeated!
-> Your team was defeated!
-> You have killed every enemy creatures.
-> You have lost a precious creature.
-> You have met an objective.
-> You have a new objective.
-> You have failed one of your objectives.
...

Ah, also, don't forget we have two factions. One for the Keeper (the main one) and one for the Heroes. So I wondered whether we wanted to have different voices for that. ?
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Re: 2 ideas linked to gameplay

Postby eugeneloza » 18 Dec 2014, 16:32

I'll try it either today or tomorrow evening :) I even thought there should be something like several Keeper factions with different mood and text.
Earlier I was voiceacting mainly 'funny' roles. So I am not sure wheather I'll be able to make many distinctively different variants.

At this point I have in mind:
Hero advisor with phrases like:
Reinforcements have arrived, mylord.
The forces of Light are victorious!
'Hellish advisor' (which is basic goal) and a 'toady imp' that would address the player as 'master'/'your cruelty'. Maybe also a snakish voice.
Maybe also some neutral computer-like voice.

I'll make several variants to choose from as soon as I have the time in the 'proper hour of the day'.
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Re: 2 ideas linked to gameplay

Postby eugeneloza » 18 Dec 2014, 21:41

Had some time to think of possible phrases (attached file). How about such an idea?
I'm afraid some of those would need to be accompanied by visual text like 'DEFEAT!', because they tell speaker's attitude to what has happened, not the 'event name/type'.

I've subdivided the phrases in these categories (mostly compilation of aforementioned phrases):

Greeting
Victory
Defeat
Ally defeated
One enemy defeated
Creature died
You have met an objective
You have a new objective
You have failed one of your objectives
Creature cannot create a bed
Creature is hungry and cannot find food
New creature arrived
We are under attack

Maybe, something should be added/removed?

:!: (UPD) P.S. I've checked my timetable. The most probable chunk of time 'safely' large enough to record raw voice would be this Sunday evening (Saturday evening might be also possible). Another one would come after mid January. I'll try to record a sample today evening and if it's OK then make the raw voice till Monday. So, if the sample can be approved until Sunday noon (or, better, Saturday noon) it would be very good.
(UPD) P.P.S. While My lord/My lady sounds very cool, I think I should rewrite it to gender-neutral Your highness / Your majesty to avoid asking player if he is male or female.
Attachments
OpenDungeons_voice.odt
(13.95 KiB) Downloaded 203 times
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Re: 2 ideas linked to gameplay

Postby Bertram » 19 Dec 2014, 12:22

Hey eugeneloza,

I'll let Danimal decide upon this, but I'll gladly take the implementation side. ;)
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Re: 2 ideas linked to gameplay

Postby Danimal » 19 Dec 2014, 18:07

Lets see:

for keeper evil i would change "Those weaklings" for "your minions"(or maybe "Servants") its more specific, else it could mean your enemies as well,
It has been to weak to live. -> verbal time error: It was too weak to live

Snake sounds well, but in which case could this voice be used?

Robot? we dont need this one for sure

The toady/dwarf are good and fun, maybe cutting a bit some of the toady phrases

Creature cannot create a bed:
Master, a minion asked to tell you it cannot find a bed.

Creature is hungry and cannot find food:
Master, minions are complaining they are hungry.


Maybe we could use one voice set for each biome or let the choose whci whci to use or be assigned at ramdom.
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Re: 2 ideas linked to gameplay

Postby Danimal » 19 Dec 2014, 18:14

some of these would also be interesting to have:

"Your creatures/minions/followers are under attack" /uncaring tone
"The enemy is claiming your tiles" /slight concern
"Your buildings are under attack!" /medium concern
"Your dungeon temple is under attack!" /high emphasis
"You need more Gold"
"You need more Mana"

"You have destroyed an enemy building"
"You have destroyed an enemy Dungeon Temple!" /victorious
"Your creatures are complaining of a lack of beds"
"Your creatures are complaining of a lack of food"
"A creature has left your dungeon due to unhappiness"
"A creature is rioting due to unhappiness"/emphasis

This one i reminds but cant find:
Your creatures are abandoning your dungeon; hey! last one turns the ligths out!!
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Re: 2 ideas linked to gameplay

Postby hwoarangmy » 19 Dec 2014, 18:22

I like the the idea of having theses messages (by chat or, better, voice). I think it is a good way to make the game more fun like DK.
@eugeneloza : I've read your file and I like most of the messages. The only thing I've seen is that in some, the reason is not always clear. For example, "We are becoming stronger" should be, IMHO, something like "A new minion has come. We are becoming stronger"
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Re: 2 ideas linked to gameplay

Postby eugeneloza » 19 Dec 2014, 19:23

Ooops, I've already recoded all of those. But let that be for practice :) I still missed out few pops and clips... I'll process everything in half an hour or something like that and upload :)
Actually I thought of player choosing his advisor before the game.
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Re: 2 ideas linked to gameplay

Postby eugeneloza » 19 Dec 2014, 19:54

Added some OD music & reverb for mood :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: That was fun!
A few more in half an hour...
Attachments
SNAKE.ogg
(14.37 MiB) Downloaded 198 times
COMPUTER.ogg
(5.5 MiB) Downloaded 222 times
DWARF.ogg
(5.31 MiB) Downloaded 227 times
HERO.ogg
(8.36 MiB) Downloaded 226 times
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Re: 2 ideas linked to gameplay

Postby eugeneloza » 19 Dec 2014, 20:51

Sources need lot's of clearing (breath, lips), but music masks most of these problems :)
Another portion of fun :)
That's all files, I've experimenting with different processing, the presented one is 'best' to my opinion.
Attachments
KEEPER(groan).ogg
(9.22 MiB) Downloaded 215 times
KEEPER(neutral1).ogg
(6.64 MiB) Downloaded 238 times
TOADY.ogg
(5.68 MiB) Downloaded 217 times
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Re: 2 ideas linked to gameplay

Postby Danimal » 19 Dec 2014, 22:02

Hey, its pretty good :)
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Re: 2 ideas linked to gameplay

Postby hwoarangmy » 20 Dec 2014, 00:59

I've tested the keeper groan and neutral and its pretty nice ^^
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Re: 2 ideas linked to gameplay

Postby Bertram » 20 Dec 2014, 10:05

Dang! It's fu**** great :D

Everyone of them is good, the sentence are well thought, and they are punctuated just like a AAA titles, special kudos for the Dwarf version. XD

Here is what I think about how to use the voices:
- The two keepers are great, I especially like the groan one, and the two heroes are also very good. I'd like to see those ones used.
- I must say I really like the snake one, and in fact, I think that kind of voice should be used as a fearful Keeper traitor/enemy in the campaign.
Being insulted by a cunning snake will IMHO be motivating to kick its ass. ;)
- The toad is fun but I had to put a voice at the third place for the keepers. :)
- IMO, the computer doesn't fit, even if it is fun to hear. :)

All in all, I'm all for adding those in game. The detail of what part is played when can come in a second row, what I'd need for 0.5.0 to know, is:
- Whether we should add an option to set up the voice in the options menu, so that you can select your favourite Keeper/Hero voice. If you're ok with it, I shall start working on the options menu as it will be useful for many things, and a prerequisite for such an option.
- I'll also need to get the voices without the background music. You can upload one sole file per voice, I'll do the rest. I'll also need to know what (open) license you want for your voices. I'd advise CC-BY or even CC-BY-SA 3.0 so you officially keep authorship of your work. :)
Once you've got the voice files without background music, you really should upload it to Open Game Art, as they are really good enough to be used elsewhere, if you want to.

Best regards, :)
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Re: 2 ideas linked to gameplay

Postby Akien » 20 Dec 2014, 11:55

Wow this is awesome! I knew you would produce some quality voice acting, but I wasn't expecting something that good (and so fast!).
As far as I can tell the sound capture is really good, you have a neat little home studio :)

I have more or less the same comments as Bertram, I really enjoyed all those voices. I laughed so much when listening to the dwarf one :-P

Bertram {l Wrote}:Whether we should add an option to set up the voice in the options menu, so that you can select your favourite Keeper/Hero voice. If you're ok with it, I shall start working on the options menu as it will be useful for many things, and a prerequisite for such an option.

+1

Bertram {l Wrote}:I'd advise CC-BY or even CC-BY-SA 3.0 so you officially keep authorship of your work.

I'd also advise CC-BY-SA, to make it copyleft and be sure that derivatives stay free/libre :-)

0.5.0 will be so great :D
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Re: 2 ideas linked to gameplay

Postby eugeneloza » 20 Dec 2014, 19:24

Thanks for the comments! :D It was real fun doing :)
It seems that I should clean breath/lips (or how that sound engineering jargon should be translated in English?) before final version (audible some times even under music). I will add exciter to the voice (for mixes I used the exciter at final mastering stage so it is not in the 'clean' file yet).
I can do it only tomorrow, urgent need to write some music today :) I had to do it a week ago, and so I've got only one night left :D

Should I split them into phrases (they are just a single chunk now)?
I've made it at studio quality 48Khz/32 bit. Which format should I use? I can convert it to standard 44100/16 bit.
Should I use WAV files? Or compress as max-quality OGG?
Should I include some reverb in the file as in the mixes? Its sounds much better with reverb, but reverb usually should be 'equal' to all the scene events or else it would be not natural.
I also experimented with different processing. Should I also upload some more processing variants? I think they are worse.

On the other hand, there are several pops and clips, I've masked those, but still audible.
Moreover, there were suggestions on the script. Maybe we should first make the corrections?
I'll be able to record again after mid January. Too much preparations for the winter camp and finishing projects at work. I need a chunk of ~1 hour for recording and ~2 hours for processing the same amount of audio (however, this time it will be much less experimenting).
So there is still time to make some more text... maybe like campaign briefing / campaign relative text&comments.
It is much easier to record 'more' and 'cut' something, than to add something later (It is sometimes hard to preform the same feeling another day and the role may sound not 'homogeneous' between phrases, added chunk also would need identical processing which parameters I sometimes forget to save after experimenting).
On third hand I thought that it would be fine to test the voice in-game before the re-recording. Sometimes it gives good ideas. Like add text for 'building completed' even when it doesn't take time to build. To make something shorter/longer.

I'd advise CC-BY or even CC-BY-SA 3.0 so you officially keep authorship of your work.

Ok, let that be CC-BY-SA 3.0. However, I have absolutely nothing against CC-BY 3.0 or OGA-BY 3.0, so I take any advice on that :)

The two keepers are great, I especially like the groan one

The groan one was the hardest :cool: But it definitely sounds much more horrible after processing :) I was worrying about text audibility at the end of phrases.
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Re: 2 ideas linked to gameplay

Postby hwoarangmy » 20 Dec 2014, 21:13

eugeneloza {l Wrote}:Should I split them into phrases (they are just a single chunk now)?
Concerning quality, I will let the others answer as I guess Danimal/Bertram know better what has been used so far. But concerning slitting, IMHO, several small files would be better. Why ? Because as you said, it will be easier when we will want to update them or to add a new one.

eugeneloza {l Wrote}:I was worrying about text audibility at the end of phrases.
No, that's really audible. I don't know how is your Ukranian but your English is pretty good ;) As Bertram said, it would just be cool to remove the music (because depending on the background music, it would be weird).
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