Just some quick notes

Just some quick notes

Postby Vandar » 20 Feb 2015, 15:17

I've been a big fan of Dungeon Keeper (the first one, never had Dungeon keeper II to try), and more than once I was thinking about making a version of my own, but never really tried.

So yesterday I've downloaded a copy of OpenDungeons 0.4.9, and ran it. The only rendering System to choose was OpenGl, although I was on Windows, and assumed that Direct3D would be default for the windows platform? But no problem, it ran smooth with the default options.

Good looking title screen :) Also very nice ambient sounds.

I've tried to carvee out some space, placed some rooms and everything worked fine and solid. The imps were busy to fortify floors and walls, and a number of creatures eneterd my dungeon. I had no crashes or such. I couldn't find out how to rotate the map, but I could pan the map with the cursor keys. Some creatures were hard to recognize, some seemed very small compared to the size from DK1 which I had in memory (creature size vs. wall height). Animations and everything worked fine. And finally I ran out of time, so I didn't test much more.

I've seen the roadmap and that the 0.4.9 is the first real release, so kudos for the solid work, well done :)
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Re: Just some quick notes

Postby hwoarangmy » 20 Feb 2015, 16:35

Hello,

Thanks for the feedback :)

Vandar {l Wrote}:I've been a big fan of Dungeon Keeper (the first one, never had Dungeon keeper II to try), and more than once I was thinking about making a version of my own, but never really tried.
If you have coding skills or you are an artist, please don't hesitate to help. As every open source project, we are always on need :)

Vandar {l Wrote}:So yesterday I've downloaded a copy of OpenDungeons 0.4.9, and ran it.
Note that there is a developer version available. the 0.5.0 is almost ready and most of its key features are already available (especially fog of war). You can find them (take the newest):
http://sourceforge.net/projects/opendun ... Snapshots/

I will probably post a new one during the week end with the research logic ^^

Vandar {l Wrote}:The only rendering System to choose was OpenGl, although I was on Windows, and assumed that Direct3D would be default for the windows platform? But no problem, it ran smooth with the default options.
Because Open Dungeons is a multi platform open source project, we choose to support only OpenGL. Supporting DirectX is for windows only and might bring pretty much work. Again, if you have some skills there, please don't hesitate

Vandar {l Wrote}:Good looking title screen :) Also very nice ambient sounds.
Thanks:)

Vandar {l Wrote}:I've tried to carvee out some space, placed some rooms and everything worked fine and solid. The imps were busy to fortify floors and walls, and a number of creatures eneterd my dungeon. I had no crashes or such. I couldn't find out how to rotate the map, but I could pan the map with the cursor keys. Some creatures were hard to recognize, some seemed very small compared to the size from DK1 which I had in memory (creature size vs. wall height). Animations and everything worked fine. And finally I ran out of time, so I didn't test much more.
You can rotate pressing a and e (if azerty keyboard) or q and e (if qwerty). Concerning zoom, you can use the mouse to zoom.

Vandar {l Wrote}:I've seen the roadmap and that the 0.4.9 is the first real release, so kudos for the solid work, well done :)
Thanks ^^
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Re: Just some quick notes

Postby Vandar » 22 Feb 2015, 16:03

I thought OGRE would do the rendering for you, and the platform specifics like OpenGL or Direct3D would be part of OGRE, not the project.

But I never used any of the 3D engines, that might explain my wrong assumption, also this is a problem in helping you - I have no idea of the technology used in this project. My knowledge is stuck in the 2D era. The other problem is, that don't like C++ anymore. AgentKeeper is Java, which I'm fluent in, but also has such 3D stuff, which is a mystery to me. Also my 3D object modeling skills are based on the wrong tools - everything went polygonal, but I kept using a geometry/math formula based raytracer (Povray), which models scenes quite differently. It's cool to make 2D or isometric assets which are pre-rendered, but not good for todays 3D mesh-based technology.

I guess I can only help with suggestions and the occasional texture or icon design. But my graphics skills aren't that good either.

I've d'loaded the git20150221-Snapshot, and if I'm lucky this evening I'll have time to try it :) Thanks for the link I'm curious about it!
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Re: Just some quick notes

Postby Danimal » 22 Feb 2015, 18:56

Thanks for your feedback Vandar, normally we dont get much from outsiders of open source community and its very appreciated :)
This makes me wish we had some box where people could post their impression on our homepage without the need to register (which surely is the main reason they dont say anything even if we have 100+ weekly downloads), somehow i also wish people would give out hasher opinions pointing our weakest aspects.
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Re: Just some quick notes

Postby hwoarangmy » 22 Feb 2015, 21:57

Vandar {l Wrote}:I thought OGRE would do the rendering for you, and the platform specifics like OpenGL or Direct3D would be part of OGRE, not the project.
Not everything. Officially supporting several renderers means many additional testing. And some stuff like shaders might need some tweaking. That's why we choose to support officially Open GL only.

Vandar {l Wrote}:But I never used any of the 3D engines, that might explain my wrong assumption, also this is a problem in helping you - I have no idea of the technology used in this project. My knowledge is stuck in the 2D era. The other problem is, that don't like C++ anymore. AgentKeeper is Java, which I'm fluent in, but also has such 3D stuff, which is a mystery to me. Also my 3D object modeling skills are based on the wrong tools - everything went polygonal, but I kept using a geometry/math formula based raytracer (Povray), which models scenes quite differently. It's cool to make 2D or isometric assets which are pre-rendered, but not good for todays 3D mesh-based technology.
No problem. I only said that because you were talking of rewriting another DK clone from scratch and, in my opinion, it's better to contribute to an existing project than rewriting everything.
BTW, Java is the language I've used the most and I was newbie in C++ when I joined this project. Actually, that's even one of the reasons I came here: to learn C++ ^^

Vandar {l Wrote}:I've d'loaded the git20150221-Snapshot, and if I'm lucky this evening I'll have time to try it :) Thanks for the link I'm curious about it!
Please don't hesitate to give some feedback. It's always good to have players opinions, especially when they know the original DK :)
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Re: Just some quick notes

Postby Vandar » 23 Feb 2015, 14:54

If I'm going at such a project I want to take a different approach. Less combat and more actual "dungeon keeping". Actually in my "Hunt for the lost rainbow Jewels" project I've already experimented with some AI to make the imps look for water and rest (well and food, but I didn't finsih that yet ...), to get an idea what it takes to make a monster choose a goal and pursue it. So I wouldn't start from scratch, but with the codebase of Jewelhunt and expand it with the required user interface and AI code.

Back on topic:

- I've tried to alt tab to another application, but OD kept popping back in front.
- I had problems to spawn a first imp, because I had forgotten that it was in the "spells" menu. That might be a trap for players who don't know or don't remember DK very well anymore.
- I couldn't find out how to save and load games. There is a "replay" option, but it sent me back to the initial map state. My firewall blocked OD, though, could that be a problem here?

I was able to build a small dungeon with a treasury, a dormitory and a hatchery, and quite some monsters entered. I had slimes, tentacles, dungeon wasps and something reptile-like which I didn't see the name of. After that I had a moment of "what do I do now?" and looked for options to save the game, but nbeither the F1 help nor the FAQ or README did mention saving and loading of games. (Or I was too blind to see ... can happen).

There was a minor lighting glitch when I poitioned the cursor on a certain field of the treasury - a whole line of wall tiles darked down a notch in that case. Maybe a siode effect of the fog of war code? No problem though.

Music changed when some of my monster got angry. I guess that was intended, and want to tell that the feature works :)

The gold is used up quickly. Not a problem for my testing, but I was surprised how fast the gold that I had mined was spent again.

Is mana used for something yet?

Overall a very solid experience. The features which are present seem to work flawlessly, at least I noticed no bugs or problems :)
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Re: Just some quick notes

Postby hwoarangmy » 23 Feb 2015, 19:01

Vandar {l Wrote}:- I've tried to alt tab to another application, but OD kept popping back in front.
I usually play in windowed mode and I don't have problem with switching application. I will have a look when using fullscreen.

Vandar {l Wrote}:- I had problems to spawn a first imp, because I had forgotten that it was in the "spells" menu. That might be a trap for players who don't know or don't remember DK very well anymore.
Yes, It might not be straight forward to use spells to summon imps (we call them kobolds). It will probably be better when we will have some tutorial maps. I will have a look at the help menu and open an issue about it if it is not clear enough.

Vandar {l Wrote}:- I couldn't find out how to save and load games.
Because there is no possibility to save/load a game yet ;) It will come later. ATM, the game is at a stage where we can begin to think about it (now that nearly all game mechanisms are functional).

Vandar {l Wrote}:There was a minor lighting glitch when I poitioned the cursor on a certain field of the treasury - a whole line of wall tiles darked down a notch in that case. Maybe a siode effect of the fog of war code? No problem though.
I've never seen that. If you can reproduce it, could you please save the replay and post it ?

Vandar {l Wrote}:Music changed when some of my monster got angry. I guess that was intended, and want to tell that the feature works :)
That happens when there is a fight ;) And you can press space to go to the place. I will add a chat message to warn about the fight, too, tonight.

Vandar {l Wrote}:The gold is used up quickly. Not a problem for my testing, but I was surprised how fast the gold that I had mined was spent again.
Everything is configurable (creature fees, room/traps prices, payday frequency, ...). For now, they are pretty high because it is easier to test but we will definitely need to decrease. On the other hand, need for gold will be the easiest way to achieve the game average length we are aiming for (between 30 to 60 minutes in multiplayer). The most gold is needed, the most aggressive players are advantaged. In any case, gold has to be very usefull to give a real bonus to players taking the risk to try to get many in early game (and thus, putting their dungeon at risk).

Vandar {l Wrote}:Is mana used for something yet?
Yes, for spells. ATM, we only have 2 spells available: summon kobold and call to war (makes all your idle creatures go to where you cast the spell). I was also thinking of implementing a bolt spell but I need a mesh and I've not found any suitable yet (but I've not looked much either).

Vandar {l Wrote}:My firewall blocked OD, though, could that be a problem here?
It will make that you cannot play multiplayer (the feature is functionnal).
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Re: Just some quick notes

Postby eugeneloza » 23 Feb 2015, 19:19

hwoarangmy {l Wrote}:
Vandar {l Wrote}:- I had problems to spawn a first imp, because I had forgotten that it was in the "spells" menu. That might be a trap for players who don't know or don't remember DK very well anymore.
Yes, It might not be straight forward to use spells to summon imps (we call them kobolds). It will probably be better when we will have some tutorial maps. I will have a look at the help menu and open an issue about it if it is not clear enough.

Maybe it's a good idea to bring the three free kobolds in automatically as it was in previous build?

hwoarangmy {l Wrote}:
Vandar {l Wrote}:There was a minor lighting glitch when I poitioned the cursor on a certain field of the treasury - a whole line of wall tiles darked down a notch in that case. Maybe a siode effect of the fog of war code? No problem though.
I've never seen that. If you can reproduce it, could you please save the replay and post it ?

I've also thought it was a glitch, until I understood that it's the creatures view changing. Was thinking of a better way to report/reproduce it... But next time I've played I've noticed, that light changes a little when a creature passes nearby.
I liked the idea of tiles not getting lighter or darker, but becoming black-and-white if not seen. But not sure if its worth it.
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Re: Just some quick notes

Postby Vandar » 23 Feb 2015, 22:00

I hope the replay works. At the end of the session, I've been playing blinkenlights with the wall tiles.

Now I'm waiting for the first version that can save and load games :)

PS: The effect doesn't show in the replay. But after the replay completes, if you place the hand of evil in the top-right square of the dormitory, all wall tiles in that row become dark.

PPS: What is that ugly 4-legged tentacle creature? Looks scary.
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Re: Just some quick notes

Postby hwoarangmy » 23 Feb 2015, 22:59

Vandar {l Wrote}:I hope the replay works. At the end of the session, I've been playing blinkenlights with the wall tiles.
Yep, it works ^^

Vandar {l Wrote}:PS: The effect doesn't show in the replay. But after the replay completes, if you place the hand of evil in the top-right square of the dormitory, all wall tiles in that row become dark.

I've had a look and I guess you are talking about lighting. The hand of evil holds a light and you are talking about a lighting issue. That's true that sometimes, it enlightens a bit too much and spreads too many shadows.

Vandar {l Wrote}:Now I'm waiting for the first version that can save and load games :)
:)

Vandar {l Wrote}:PPS: What is that ugly 4-legged tentacle creature? Looks scary.
It's called Kreatur.
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Re: Just some quick notes

Postby hwoarangmy » 23 Feb 2015, 23:03

eugeneloza {l Wrote}:Maybe it's a good idea to bring the three free kobolds in automatically as it was in previous build?
Well, it doesn't change anything to the fact that if you don't know that you can spawn more using spells, you won't. Moreover, the good point with using only spells is that you understand fast that you need to do something (since nothing happens ^^)
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Re: Just some quick notes

Postby Bertram » 24 Feb 2015, 00:39

Well, it doesn't change anything to the fact that if you don't know that you can spawn more using spells, you won't. Moreover, the good point with using only spells is that you understand fast that you need to do something (since nothing happens ^^)

I agree completely.

I wanted to say that my cousin had a game on OD this Week-end (latest windows binary from hwoarangmy). She is the complete DK1 fan (hating DK2 funnily),
and is the lambda user type, that gets angry against computer rather easily. XD
Well, guys, she just loved it. There a plenty of small criticism I'll try to gather and put back here, but when you have yeah-sayers in your own family, something great already happened. :D
The first thing she wanted was skull flags/'HP thing above their head' (well, it's quite a great timing), and she desperately found the lack of doors, and bridges a stategic lack.
The load/save is something she requested as she wanna play and sometimes can't have a full game at once.

And she threatened me about making a long, fun campaign asap. :S

Ah, and she was like: Options? What for? I can play and hear them. Objectives? What for? Isn't it murder, death, kill? XD

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Re: Just some quick notes

Postby Danimal » 24 Feb 2015, 01:44

Objectives? What for? Isn't it murder, death, kill?

I think i would get along with her :heart:
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Re: Just some quick notes

Postby eugeneloza » 24 Feb 2015, 02:55

'HP thing above their head'

Yes, that's really important stuff. 'Cause computer AI is cheating! :cool:
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Re: Just some quick notes

Postby hwoarangmy » 24 Feb 2015, 09:18

Bertram {l Wrote}:The first thing she wanted was skull flags/'HP thing above their head' (well, it's quite a great timing)
You saw her one week too early ;)

Bertram {l Wrote}:she desperately found the lack of doors, and bridges a stategic lack.
I guess she will have to wait a bit :p

Bertram {l Wrote}:The load/save is something she requested as she wanna play and sometimes can't have a full game at once.
Now that we have all the game mechanics, I guess that it will be the next thing to do. IMHO, the most wanted now will be the campaign/more maps. But before we can start on that, we should allow to save maps as changing how the maps are saved will mean changing every map.

Bertram {l Wrote}:Objectives? What for? Isn't it murder, death, kill? XD
That probably hides some psychological illness. Probably a too long exposition to BigKnights...
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Re: Just some quick notes

Postby Bertram » 24 Feb 2015, 11:36

As a first notice, please don't take anything of what she said as a pressure for anything.
She kinda knows such things take time, even if she's the usual impatient player kind.

hwoarangmy {l Wrote}:I guess she will have to wait a bit :p

Indeed. But as her main technique is turtling, let's not encourage her too much too quickly about that. ;)

Now that we have all the game mechanics, I guess that it will be the next thing to do. IMHO, the most wanted now will be the campaign/more maps. But before we can start on that, we should allow to save maps as changing how the maps are saved will mean changing every map.

Yeah, sounds fair. Even I'd still say one thing at a time. as for GUI, I'm preparing something taking in account the options, the objectives, research tree and the future save/load functionalities.
And it's also time we have icons in the menus... ;)

That probably hides some psychological illness. Probably a too long exposition to BigKnights...

In her case, it comes long before that kind of exposure. ;)

Yes, that's really important stuff. 'Cause computer AI is cheating! :cool:

It is. hwoarangmy is their evil pupeteer. I saw him bend the strings of the High Knights!!

I think i would get along with her :heart:

Lol. You should think twice before falling in love with the first kill'em all lady I merely described here. XD

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Re: Just some quick notes

Postby Vandar » 24 Feb 2015, 23:11

Somehow I think the hand of evil should be allowed a glove before picking up the Kreatur.
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Re: Just some quick notes

Postby hwoarangmy » 25 Feb 2015, 10:07

Vandar {l Wrote}:Somehow I think the hand of evil should be allowed a glove before picking up the Kreatur.
Like this ?
http://www.iloveswords.com/images/LOTR/ ... letLRG.jpg
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Re: Just some quick notes

Postby Vandar » 25 Feb 2015, 11:12

Yes, that looks just right :)

Do you have a rough idea when saving and loading games will be ready?
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Re: Just some quick notes

Postby Bertram » 25 Feb 2015, 11:19

Do you have a rough idea when saving and loading games will be ready?

When it will be ready. We're a small team working on our spare-time and you told us you wouldn't help, right? ;)
In any case, have faith, it will come.
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Re: Just some quick notes

Postby Vandar » 25 Feb 2015, 11:40

I've been thinking about it a long time, but both AgentKeeper and OpenDungeons have (for me) the problem of using technology which I'm ignorant to, and which I also don't want to learn. And you wouldn't like my C++ code, since it produces segfaults all over. Even setting up a development environment for C++ projekts uses to be a diffcult and error-prone task. I don't want to do that anymore.

Maybe AgentKeeper would be a better base, since I actually had considered learning the to use the JMonekyEngine (already had downlaoded it, but never made the test app that I wanted to - a terrain generator). The problem is that Agent Keeper seems dead, and the developer hasn't posted since 3 months.

And finally, I wanted to get away from computer based projects, since they are bad for my health. I'm not sure why I'm currently in such a developing mood, before I had a 9 month break from computer projects before this, and I considered that good. The lot of coding that I have been the past days was unhealthy already, but I couldn't help myself against the "I want to get it done" feeling. It's good that I'm currently at a point when I feel confident with the state of Jewelhunt, and the Imp City prototype, and I hope that in th enear future I can relax again and take care of the other things which have been piling up while I spent too much time at the computer, working on thos projects. At the moment I consider it good that I was working on those two projects, but I need to relax it; unfortunately for me it always seems to be either "all" or "nothing", I never find a low-impact way of developing. If I start something it soon develops into a manic to reach some self set goals in the least possible time, followed by setting more goals. This time it sarted right, doing some work when I really felt bored, but soon I was spending every free minute on the projects again, which was wrong.

It's ok that it'll be ready when it's ready. I'll wait and maybe bother you with silly ideas now and then ;)
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Re: Just some quick notes

Postby eugeneloza » 25 Feb 2015, 12:10

And finally, I wanted to get away from computer based projects, since they are bad for my health.

I wanna try woring in a park/forest this summer :) Looks like a cool idea.
Bycicle, laptop, and an hour and a half of work at fresh air :) Sounds promising. Bad idea to work with 3d graphics (uncomfortable), but sounds fine for coding/scripting :)
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Re: Just some quick notes

Postby Vandar » 25 Feb 2015, 12:32

Once weather allows, I think most of my free time will go into gardening again. That was a very good activity for me during the last year.

If you have a good wireless link, working outside with a laptop should be possible. But I must admit, my back doesn't like the position when working with a laptop.
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Re: Just some quick notes

Postby Bertram » 25 Feb 2015, 12:58

And finally, I wanted to get away from computer based projects, since they are bad for my health.

Yeah, reaching a balance between whatever activities you have in front of a screen and the real life is something a lot of people have to struggle with.
After all, many people have their eyes always stuck on their smart phones, so the problem isn't only about developing open-source projects, playing video games,
or "applications" say the people claiming they aren't geeks or addicts while reaching the level 700 of Candy Crush(TM) within two weeks.
If you know yourself enough to find out it's better for you not to get involved, I won't blame you at all. It's indeed a sane decision in that case. :)

I'll wait and maybe bother you with silly ideas now and then ;)

Sure, anytime. We need feed-back all the time. :)

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Re: Just some quick notes

Postby hwoarangmy » 25 Feb 2015, 13:04

Vandar {l Wrote}:I've been thinking about it a long time, but both AgentKeeper and OpenDungeons have (for me) the problem of using technology which I'm ignorant to, and which I also don't want to learn. And you wouldn't like my C++ code, since it produces segfaults all over. Even setting up a development environment for C++ projekts uses to be a diffcult and error-prone task. I don't want to do that anymore.
As I said, I'm also a former Java coder and I agree setting up an environment in C++ project usually is a real pain. Actually, that's why the first thing I did when coming to OD project was to write an how to compile OD from scratch. If you are interested, you can find it in our wiki (for MinGW or MSVS2013 as you use windows):
https://github.com/OpenDungeons/OpenDun ... ki/Compile

Vandar {l Wrote}:Maybe AgentKeeper would be a better base, since I actually had considered learning the to use the JMonekyEngine (already had downlaoded it, but never made the test app that I wanted to - a terrain generator). The problem is that Agent Keeper seems dead, and the developer hasn't posted since 3 months.
When I came to OD, I also had a look at Agent Keeper but I couldn't find enough information about the engine. Moreover, most games use C++ and I'm not sure Java is better for that. Concerning JMonkey, I've had a try and it seems to be a pretty good engine. I've not really done something big with it but from what I've seen while playing a little bit with it, it seems promising. The only thing is that back then, when I had a try, there was an android version but the support didn't seem to be very good. There was a Jmonkey test application on google play but it was already visible that the engine was not ready for android yet. It may have changed. But developping an app in java without being able to use it on smartphones sounded like a dead end to me.

Vandar {l Wrote}:It's ok that it'll be ready when it's ready. I'll wait and maybe bother you with silly ideas now and then ;)
In any case, whatever if you decide to help developping or not, please feel free to give feedback and ideas. That's always welcome ^^
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