Workers & XP balancing

Workers & XP balancing

Postby Bertram » 19 Aug 2014, 13:41

Hi there, :)

Atm, in game, one use often the workers to go fighting instead of the fighters.

Why? Because workers earn XP when digging, and they dig a lot, making them much stronger (level 30) than the average fighter that can only go up to level 10 when training,
and must then fight for real to catch the later levels.

--> I'd thus propose to first cap the workers just like fighters, and make them go up to level 10 when digging.
When fighting, they'll be able to earn XP of course. I would also let them earn XP when building a room since it would give a slight difference between the active
and the more lazy ones.

Later on, we could also give XP to them when they set traps, fetch special items, and so on.

Also, atm, the creatures are earning levels way too fast. Workers can get level 30 within minutes and fighters don't really train hard before going back in laziness or fight.
--> I'd thus propose we cut the XP earning by 5 as a start and see what it changes on the gameplay. As multiplayer support is a reality now, such things would be nice to deal with
before some real lan. ;)

What do you think?

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Re: Workers & XP balancing

Postby Akien » 19 Aug 2014, 14:16

Bertram {l Wrote}:--> I'd thus propose to first cap the workers just like fighters, and make them go up to level 10 when digging.
When fighting, they'll be able to earn XP of course. I would also let them earn XP when building a room since it would give a slight difference between the active
and the more lazy ones.

I agree, this would be a nice addition. Yesterday I destroyed three bases with one level 30 worker :-p

Bertram {l Wrote}:Also, atm, the creatures are earning levels way too fast. Workers can get level 30 within minutes and fighters don't really train hard before going back in laziness or fight.
--> I'd thus propose we cut the XP earning by 5 as a start and see what it changes on the gameplay. As multiplayer support is a reality now, such things would be nice to deal with
before some real lan. ;)

I'd say go for it, we can try it and assess it in live games :-) My only concern would be that it will make it harder (i.e. more time-consuming) to debug issues in mid or late game since the creature behaviour is still not optimal (especially for fighters IMO). But that would be a nice incentive for the devs to implement the gameplay mechanism that would make it easier to sent an army against an enemy base :-D
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Re: Workers & XP balancing

Postby Bertram » 19 Aug 2014, 14:38

I'd say go for it, we can try it and assess it in live games :-) My only concern would be that it will make it harder (i.e. more time-consuming) to debug issues in mid or late game since the creature behaviour is still not optimal (especially for fighters IMO).


True. This said I do not think the fighter's behaviour is optimal even in the early phase of the game. (I'm almost sure you're mostly speaking of fighter skirmishes here or the fact that sometimes they go idling.)
A quick-cheat command should do the trick when one wants to get big soon, and we could even create a test map used for late game test purpose, IMO.

But that would be a nice incentive for the devs to implement the gameplay mechanism that would make it easier to sent an army against an enemy base :-D

Eh eh. Danimal heard you as he provided the icon for the corresponding spell already. ;)

Both proposals are one-liners, so it won't be hard to revert of change, anyway.

@Danimal, @hwoarangmy, @Paul?

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Re: Workers & XP balancing

Postby hwoarangmy » 19 Aug 2014, 14:49

Bertram {l Wrote}:Atm, in game, one use often the workers to go fighting instead of the fighters.
Do not forget that we use the small map or the test map that have fighters with weapon's attack = 0.
But the worker has 1-8 attack. That may explain why he is so powerfull.

Bertram {l Wrote}:HWhy? Because workers earn XP when digging, and they dig a lot, making them much stronger (level 30) than the average fighter that can only go up to level 10 when training, and must then fight for real to catch the later levels.
There is definitely a problem with level up. Digging 1 tile allows to upgrade 2 levels :)

Bertram {l Wrote}:--> I'd thus propose to first cap the workers just like fighters, and make them go up to level 10 when digging.
When fighting, they'll be able to earn XP of course. I would also let them earn XP when building a room since it would give a slight difference between the active
and the more lazy ones.
Mmm, I'm not sure we should expect fighters to win experience in battles. But as we said, they should not upgrade so fast. I remember that in DK, workers did not improve when working. We had to train them.

Bertram {l Wrote}:I'd thus propose we cut the XP earning by 5 as a start and see what it changes on the gameplay. As multiplayer support is a reality now, such things would be nice to deal with before some real lan. ;)
Seems good to me.
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Re: Workers & XP balancing

Postby Bertram » 19 Aug 2014, 15:38

But the worker has 1-8 attack. That may explain why he is so powerfull.

Ok. Maybe the workers already on maps have different stats? Are the newly spawned ones the same way?
If so, we should definitely set them to start at 1 for attack.

Then, ok for the /5 on XP. shall I cap the worker max level to 10 also?

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Re: Workers & XP balancing

Postby hwoarangmy » 19 Aug 2014, 16:03

Bertram {l Wrote}:Ok. Maybe the workers already on maps have different stats?
Yes, there is 1 for the first player in the small map. The spawned ones will have 0/0 as every other fighter. That's why when we will do a lan, I will kick your creatures ass if I am the server :)

Bertram {l Wrote}:Then, ok for the /5 on XP. shall I cap the worker max level to 10 also?
I think we should think about what is the final result we want. For example, I would expect maxed units to be between 1.5 and 2 times the size of the level 1 creatures (workers or not). Then, we can adapt the size for each level.
So, let's give a try and, for everybody, feel free to give your opinion (differences between maxed unit and level 1) :
Workers :
- size * 2
- working speed * 3
- walking speed * 3
- Later : teleport spell

Fighters :
- size * 1.5
- attack * 4
- defense * 2
- walking speed * 2
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Re: Workers & XP balancing

Postby Bertram » 19 Aug 2014, 16:36

I think we should think about what is the final result we want.

Always true. :)
I'll be honest. I'll let the size problem to Danimal as he already worked on the question. I'm finding the current scaling not that bad, btw.

Mmm, I'm not sure we should expect fighters to win experience in battles. But as we said, they should not upgrade so fast. I remember that in DK, workers did not improve when working. We had to train them.

I'm not fond of the DK logic here, for instance. As a proof, you seem not fond of giving them XP when they fight, but you'd like to give them XP when they train like any other fighter?
IMHO, the current logic is better. After all, you become a better digger by digging more and more, right? I'd rather have the worker level cap, or the level the worker spawn at change according to the specializations you choose later in game, to be honest.

As for the leveling and stats. It's hard to answer like that, even if well, you're right we have to start somewhere. :)
I wanted to propose some kind of quick-fix to make the game fairer before doing the next rolling release, I must say.
Would you be ok with my proposal as a short-term temp fix?

Now. if we're to upgrade the stat system completely, well, there is much more than that to look at, right?

- How many level do we want to have in the game and why?
- The average game times a worker need to earn level 2 through the max one?
- The average times a fighter need to earn level 2 through the max one?
- Is the equipment a key point in battles? IMHO yes. Thus, the bare attack, defense shouldn't be that higher, except for special creatures?
- Are the creatures skills important also, when speaking of damage value changes?
- Also, creatures should have strong points each, to make them interesting. And we have to try to stay balanced between the different factions.

All those questions are linked and should be answered as a whole, if we want something definite, IMHO.

Please, correct me where I'm wrong, though.

I'll try to look at what is in the wiki so far also. This is becoming interesting. :)

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Re: Workers & XP balancing

Postby hwoarangmy » 19 Aug 2014, 16:57

Bertram {l Wrote}:I'm not fond of the DK logic here, for instance. As a proof, you seem not fond of giving them XP when they fight, but you'd like to give them XP when they train like any other fighter?
IMHO, the current logic is better. After all, you become a better digger by digging more and more, right? I'd rather have the worker level cap, or the level the worker spawn at change according to the specializations you choose later in game, to be honest.
I was just saying what I remember from DK. But I agree it is better to have workers upgrade while... working. And not by fighting or training :) Even if I believe the main point in DK was to add a cost to upgrading units (as training creatures was expensive).

Bertram {l Wrote}:I wanted to propose some kind of quick-fix to make the game fairer before doing the next rolling release, I must say.
Would you be ok with my proposal as a short-term temp fix?
yes but I think having at least 1-1 attack for fighters would make OD look more like... a game :)

Bertram {l Wrote}:- How many level do we want to have in the game and why?
- The average game times a worker need to earn level 2 through the max one?
- The average times a fighter need to earn level 2 through the max one?
- Is the equipment a key point in battles? IMHO yes. Thus, the bare attack, defense shouldn't be that higher, except for special creatures?
- Are the creatures skills important also, when speaking of damage value changes?
- Also, creatures should have strong points each, to make them interesting. And we have to try to stay balanced between the different factions.

All those questions are linked and should be answered as a whole, if we want something definite, IMHO.
I agree. As you said, I just wanted to start somewhere :)
Considering the more precise points you are talking about, I will simply add what seems to me the most important question : How long do we think an average lan OD game should be ? I would say something like 30 minutes to 1 hour, not more. That will help us decide how fast should levels go up :)
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Re: Workers & XP balancing

Postby MCMic » 19 Aug 2014, 17:10

Workers should gain experience when working and fighters when fighting.
Workers should have a weak attack even at max level.
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Re: Workers & XP balancing

Postby Danimal » 19 Aug 2014, 18:13

Hi guys, interesting conversation here; i think:

- 1.5 is a good scale increment ratio, but i coulndt test it, so big monster migth break even that numbers
- Workers should be able to max level just by working, but their stats should be so low they are not an option to be used as warriors or even meatshields
- Lv10 as max is what DK used, is your choice for it to be like that or bigger
- XP to next level should be higher than the previous level
- Warriors win xp from battles, but also training, training hall could get them to something like lv6, from that point on you only win xp by battling or building an arena to pit your creatures on non-deathly matches.
-I like the weapon system and forging them on forge, even if its just a concept atm.
-Once Bertram makes the new creatures.def we can include things like natural physical/magical armor, base hp, base attack, max stats... so creatures obey some numbers and a spider is never stronger than a dragon; which ones carry what weapon...; this could allow to make slimes good starter tanks but weak to magic attacks. It would be just a matter of moodifying numbers to make a creature special or just an all rounder
- Creature speed need to be the same always, the only exception being haste spells or its minor cousin the "bitch-slap"
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Re: Workers & XP balancing

Postby Bertram » 19 Aug 2014, 21:16

yes but I think having at least 1-1 attack for fighters would make OD look more like... a game :)

+1 eh eh. :)

Considering the more precise points you are talking about, I will simply add what seems to me the most important question : How long do we think an average lan OD game should be ? I would say something like 30 minutes to 1 hour, not more. That will help us decide how fast should levels go up

Good point, I second that length too :)

Workers should gain experience when working and fighters when fighting.
Workers should have a weak attack even at max level.

- Workers should be able to max level just by working, but their stats should be so low they are not an option to be used as warriors or even meatshields

I agree as well.
-Once Bertram makes the new creatures.def we can include things like natural physical/magical armor, base hp, base attack, max stats... so creatures obey some numbers and a spider is never stronger than a dragon; which ones carry what weapon...; this could allow to make slimes good starter tanks but weak to magic attacks. It would be just a matter of moodifying numbers to make a creature special or just an all rounder

For the record, it's documented here: https://github.com/OpenDungeons/OpenDungeons/issues/7

- Creature speed need to be the same always, the only exception being haste spells or its minor cousin the "bitch-slap"

Well, here I partially disagree. The move speed earned by level should be part of the creature stats. Whether they become faster when leveling will be depending on the creature and the game balancer. Personally, i do think workers should walk faster when leveling.

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Re: Workers & XP balancing

Postby hwoarangmy » 19 Aug 2014, 22:42

Bertram {l Wrote}:Well, here I partially disagree. The move speed earned by level should be part of the creature stats. Whether they become faster when leveling will be depending on the creature and the game balancer. Personally, i do think workers should walk faster when leveling.
I would add that we have already said that, as expected, workers, even at high levels, will be poor warriors. I'm not sure if increasing dance rate or dig rate would be enough to make a difference between an upgraded worker and a level 1 one.
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Re: Workers & XP balancing

Postby Akien » 23 Aug 2014, 10:11

I know that most of these changes are related to issue 7, but maybe we could already tweak the creatures stats (adding some attack to fighters at least), so that fights do not take 5 minutes each at high level? :-p
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Re: Workers & XP balancing

Postby Bertram » 23 Aug 2014, 16:22

I know that most of these changes are related to issue 7, but maybe we could already tweak the creatures stats (adding some attack to fighters at least), so that fights do not take 5 minutes each at high level? :-p

Eh eh. I guess that can be already tweak, yes. :)
One would have to open the creatures.def file and play with the available values there.

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