3D Dungeons

3D Dungeons

Postby Skorpio » 24 May 2013, 10:20

I'm currently testing how suited the tile set is for 3D dungeons. There are some problems, for example the tops and bottoms of the dirt walls don't fit and the claimed walls have some z-fighting issues (however, they can be stacked easily), but I think we should consider making the game truly 3D. Using voxels for the different terrain elements would probably solve some problems, and we could still use meshes for the claimed walls and rooms (as The Ancient Goat suggested some time ago). I have no idea how difficult that would be to implement for a programmer, though.

Let's brainstorm!
OD_testlevel11.jpg
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Re: 3D Dungeons

Postby Danimal » 24 May 2013, 12:18

That looks SO sweet, you have my approval and support. What do the coders say about it?

Edit. Not to mention if we ever get outside world levels, this would make it awesome, i can picture my minions storming a castle full of archers and knights...
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Re: 3D Dungeons

Postby Skorpio » 25 May 2013, 09:36

I guess the biggest problem with three dimensional dungeons will be the overview. In the mockup it's not so apparent, but if we have tunnels and layers of rooms it will probably get pretty confusing. We have to try it out to find all problems and difficulties, and to figure out solutions.

To switch between dungeon layers we could use a system similar to that of UFO:AI, but it could still be difficult to find specific creatures or rooms. Maybe we could make the outlines of creatures always visible, even if they are covered by another layer, to find them more easily and to get a better overview.
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Re: 3D Dungeons

Postby charlie » 25 May 2013, 12:51

That looks incredible Skorpio. That is a real vision for the project to aspire to.

If the game ever looked even close to that screenshot, the amount of interest it would attract to the project would be immense.
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Re: 3D Dungeons

Postby Skorpio » 26 May 2013, 10:35

To get the graphics right I have to work hand in hand with a programmer, as I can't do much about the in-game lighting and other effects, but I'm pretty sure that we can get a similar result in the final game. There's still a lot to do, though.

I also hope we can get more people interested in the project with the graphics. We could perhaps use mock-up renders to advertise a bit for the game, of course with a warning that it's just a mock-up.
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Re: 3D Dungeons

Postby oln » 26 May 2013, 17:25

I think we have talked about 3D dungeons before, though mostly as a "far in the future" thing. I think it's a good idea to start diverging a bit from the DK formula as we have AgentKeeper doing more of a "dk remake now". The mockup does look really cool, though besides the control issue, we have to think about how the gameplay could be affected by 3 dimensions as well.
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Re: 3D Dungeons

Postby Danimal » 27 May 2013, 10:58

i guess the harderst part is that it would stop playing as DK and start playing more like a Dwarf Fortress bastard child, where you carve out your dungeon from a chunk of rock or mountain. The main points of those games is giving the players "graphics porn", thats, so many construction options that you get dizzy. Dungeon building takes on another level, it takes the main spot and combat becomes second.

Thats not bad at all, im currently adicted to gnomoria, and OD maps could be made really big to house enemy keeps (pre-made or not) and creatures would enter your dungeon when you get their needed rooms and meet some "dungeon value" meter.

So basically, the main drawback i see is the game would sacrify "playing speed" for "deep of details".
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Re: 3D Dungeons

Postby domtron » 16 Jun 2013, 05:09

That looks awesome Skorpio O.O that kind of thing really inspires us coders. :P

Skorpio {l Wrote}:To switch between dungeon layers we could use a system similar to that of UFO:AI


That might work but would really limit how many levels you can have. It makes sense for UFO:AI because the battlescape is only half the game(or less depending on your gameplay style) but the entirety of a game in OD will be on that one map(at least for now).

As for speed vs depth here are a couple Ideas off the top of my head that may allow for both:
  • Have different maps geared towards different gameplay styles(death match games would be limited to a few z levels; tower defense would have alot of z levels)
  • Allowing pausing -- may become problematic for multi-player but most rts's allow pausing in single player mode and then revoke it in MP.
  • Lots of hotkeys -- this would probably increase the learning curb
  • some kind of in game manager AI to whom the player can delegate tasks

It certainly is a "far future" goal.
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Re: 3D Dungeons

Postby Danimal » 16 Jun 2013, 11:38

i encourage anyone who has the time to play "gnomoria"(my fav) or "towns",(there is a certain bay where you can "borrow" it for a quick glance), then you can see the scope of what skorpio proposes, i dont think you can play a fast level like that because the construction takes so much time... The proposal is totally cool but a few things should be tweaked to make it fast enougth.

The posibilities are incredible thougth, making yourself a multilevel cannon lined fortified entrance for example or tunneling from under your enemies nose to his treasure room, not to mention enemy keeps could be premade and mix and matched for variety and castle siegue would rock.
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Re: 3D Dungeons

Postby Skorpio » 16 Jun 2013, 21:14

As I mentioned a couple of times before, I'd really like to see a Dwarf Fortress-like fork of Open Dungeons in the (far) future, but I don't think that 3D dungeons alone will turn OD into a much more complex game like DF or Gnomoria (which I haven't played yet). The main things that 3D dungeons will change is the amount of available space and the length of paths and I don't think the gameplay will be influenced too much. The game that I actually had in mind when I created the mock-up was Stronghold (beside the last Hobbit movie). I especially liked the siege or defense missions in Stronghold without base building, and such missions would be great for OD as well.

2D dungeons kind of lack the visual epicness that is possible in 3D, so I think if we only implement 3D maps for the sake of the aesthetics, it would be a boon for the final game.
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Re: 3D Dungeons

Postby domtron » 17 Jun 2013, 16:01

Danimal {l Wrote}:(there is a certain bay where you can "borrow" it for a quick glance)


Don't even suggest that, piracy is illegal.

Skorpio {l Wrote}:I don't think that 3D dungeons alone will turn OD into a much more complex game like DF or Gnomoria ... I don't think the gameplay will be influenced too much.


In it's self 3D Dungeons may be eye candy but you can certainly implement gameplay mechanics that wouldn't be possible(or at least way more awkward) other wise. And ya... 3D Dungeons are way more epic. Though wesnoth is fully 2D and it's doing fine. ;) Personally I think we should aim at a tech demo with one faction, 2-3 creatures, 3-4 traps, basic terrain editing, and waves of enemies(glorified TD). Expanding it from there will be "easier." then we can plop down some long term goals that inspire users and devs alike(like 3D Dungeons :D again awesome work).
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Re: 3D Dungeons

Postby domtron » 17 Jun 2013, 16:03

Danimal {l Wrote}:(there is a certain bay where you can "borrow" it for a quick glance)


Don't even suggest that, piracy is illegal.

Skorpio {l Wrote}:I don't think that 3D dungeons alone will turn OD into a much more complex game like DF or Gnomoria ... I don't think the gameplay will be influenced too much.


In it's self 3D Dungeons may be eye candy but you can certainly implement gameplay mechanics that wouldn't be possible(or at least way more awkward) other wise. And ya... 3D Dungeons are way more epic. Though wesnoth is fully 2D and it's doing fine. ;) Personally I think we should aim at a tech demo with one faction, 2-3 creatures, 3-4 traps, basic terrain editing, and waves of enemies(glorified TD). Expanding it from there will be "easier." then we can plop down some long term goals that inspire users and devs alike(like 3D Dungeons :D again awesome work).
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Re: 3D Dungeons

Postby Danimal » 17 Jun 2013, 16:31

Thats basically what i posted before, giving the whole some funcionality and showcasing it

Danimal {l Wrote}:Sadly rigth now the only direction is trying to get a working exe for windows for the last version, the main issues to get into the game are these:

viewtopic.php?f=41&t=1385
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=4279

but i would give priority to:

-New exe
-Get the new tileset in the game
-Creation of a graphical map editor
-Implement the many room models (old an new)<- we are mutually benefiting a lot from Agent keeper
-Creatures with their needs (make them behave "really", hunger, sleep) and joining conditions (rooms for them to appear)
-Creature status indicator (like the life flower)<- a disscussion is needed to decide what to use here

And if all of the above could be done, a tech demo level in wich you create your dungeon, train creatures, dig, set traps... and each set time a hero wave comes to kill you, basically, to create something to showcase around.

Its a lot of work but i trust OD can get a lot better with your help.
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Re: 3D Dungeons

Postby Bertram » 18 Jun 2013, 09:03

As far as I'm concerned, any polish of bugfix at this point will help, when I'll finally be able to get an exe out of the code.

People will want to get a stable experience as much as possible. :)

Thanks in advance! :)
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Re: 3D Dungeons

Postby Brazen » 05 Jul 2013, 19:23

Skorpio {l Wrote}:I'm currently testing how suited the tile set is for 3D dungeons. There are some problems, for example the tops and bottoms of the dirt walls don't fit and the claimed walls have some z-fighting issues (however, they can be stacked easily), but I think we should consider making the game truly 3D. Using voxels for the different terrain elements would probably solve some problems, and we could still use meshes for the claimed walls and rooms (as The Ancient Goat suggested some time ago). I have no idea how difficult that would be to implement for a programmer, though.

Let's brainstorm!
OD_testlevel11.jpg


even with the z-fighting issues, it looks great.

I'm not an experienced programmer, by any stretch. but, I suppose you could procedurally connect the edge vertices of the stacked tiles through code. it would probably have some effect on performance and would take a bit of work to setup. but, It may be the only way to keep the 3d tiles without procedurally generating all the terrain. I've never used ogre3d before, but it would probably go something like this:Getting the relevant vertices and the relevant neighbor vertex of those vertices, average a spot between the two, move them there and then recalculating the normals.(to the more experienced programmers, feel free to correct this.. I may very well be wrong :( )

I believe dungeon keeper 2 does something similar to that anyway.

these may or may not interest you or be relevant to the topic.
http://simonschreibt.blogspot.com/2013/06/dungeon-keeper-2-walls.html
a great analysis of dungeon keeper 2 walls.

http://blog.joelburgess.com/2013/04/skyrims-modular-level-design-gdc-2013.html
I found this blog post a few months back and it had alot of great information regarding Modular Level Design.
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Re: 3D Dungeons

Postby Skorpio » 06 Jul 2013, 21:46

Thanks for posting the links Brazen, they're very interesting. We should probably use a similar method to the one they used in DK2, at least for the dirt walls. That would have saved me a lot of time. Maybe we could also combine it with dynamic tesselation to create more variations.
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Re: 3D Dungeons

Postby chronomaster » 07 Nov 2013, 09:39

Skorpio {l Wrote}:we could use a system similar to that of UFO:AI, but it could still be difficult to find specific creatures or rooms.


in DK1 or DK2 a player could see his creatures summerized and categorized by number (with creature unique icon for each creature).
it is possible to do the same, and then when RIGHT-clicking them, it cycles between their positions (WITH the player's view).
that can solve the "finding individual creatures" issue.
also, you dont really have to find individual creatures, if you can just pick them up from the summerized creatures panel.
thats what i always did in DK serie.
do we all generally agree to implement this feature in future releases?
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