New engine: Intrinsic

New engine: Intrinsic

Postby rogerdv » 30 Oct 2017, 16:26

Today I discovered a new engine, via Phoronix: Intrinsic. It is mostly oriented towards Vulkan, and has interesting features, like its own editor. But it is still in early stages.
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Re: New engine: Intrinsic

Postby Lyberta » 30 Oct 2017, 16:55

Looks cool.
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Re: New engine: Intrinsic

Postby Duion » 01 Nov 2017, 13:09

I don't get why everyone wants to write his own engine now, to me it is just a waste of time.
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Re: New engine: Intrinsic

Postby rogerdv » 01 Nov 2017, 14:23

Duion {l Wrote}:I don't get why everyone wants to write his own engine now, to me it is just a waste of time.


For the same reason everybody wants to write his own game. In some cases, like Godot or Torque, they are engines that were privative and then became open source.
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Re: New engine: Intrinsic

Postby Duion » 01 Nov 2017, 14:40

Some new engine creators think they can make money with it, but the chances are very bad for that, since the engine market is oversaturated, especially since the biggest and best engines became pseudofree, so why should anyone use anything else?
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Re: New engine: Intrinsic

Postby rogerdv » 01 Nov 2017, 16:20

Duion {l Wrote}:Some new engine creators think they can make money with it, but the chances are very bad for that, since the engine market is oversaturated, especially since the biggest and best engines became pseudofree, so why should anyone use anything else?


I think there is no space for commercial engines, no that Unity, Unreal, CryEngine and Lumberyard are free to use. But there are space for open source engines, because at least Unreal does not permit the creation of open source products. And now, the open source engines have to compete with high quality engines with lot of useful features like cinematic tools, profilers, etc, so I dont see the point in developing open source engines for any reason other than fun and learning.
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Re: New engine: Intrinsic

Postby domtron » 01 Nov 2017, 16:48

Coincidences are interesting. I was just reading some ECS tutorials by the bitsquid guy and he is apparently behind this engine as well. His old engine was brought up by autodesk and this seems to be a new one he is making. Or maybe it is the same one?

@Duion: Here is an article about why you would write an engine in 2017: http://www.randygaul.net/2017/02/24/wri ... e-in-2017/ TL;DR you do it to a) learn, b) have fun, or c) implement a new feature that you don't think other engines do right or at all. The engine/techdemo I'm making (trying anyway) is mostly because I want to see how something with native C++ mods works. It is also stemming from my frustration with poor linux support in gaming. (as a side note my original idea came from a Minetest post about 3-4 years ago so it wasn't spurred by that article which happens to talk about C++ mods/scripting as a valid reason to make a game engine)
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Re: New engine: Intrinsic

Postby Egberto » 01 Nov 2017, 18:40

Duion {l Wrote}:I don't get why everyone wants to write his own engine now, to me it is just a waste of time.


Well, I think that the reasons to do a new custom engine are many (my personal view of course).

    - I think that I'm kind of oldschool, I enjoyed a lot programming in assembler in my college days, you know, learning and experimenting with all that memory adresses and registers was simply awesome. So is probably a bad habit formed in those days (to have full control).

    - I really need to understand a lot of stuff now (programing became a very seldom activity for many years and I wan't to get back on track), and the best way to get the concepts is exercicing it ... doing it by yourself (like when in college, first try to resolve the problem all on your own, when you comprehend the implications then you learn a known algorithm and compare it, is a good learning technique).

    - In reality, I don't wan't to recreate a full blown engine, but a very simple custom engine that only works for a very specific case (i.e. one game) and for a very specific platform, and doing that is not as complicated as one can espect.

    - Another bad habit, simply I'm used to work alone, yeah sometimes the personality play a main role here, and because I'm a loner, I usually have problems undestanding the code of other people, and prefer to do things that I can comprehend (usually I don't have the same problems understanding my own stuff).

    - More bad habits ... the DIY syndrome, exacerbated since I adopt GNU/Linux, you customize the OS (specially when I used Gentoo), you customize your Window Manager, you customize your Tools (Emacs) and then you want your custom engine/game ... yeah I'm lost now ... (sorry Godot ... the best FLOSS Game Engine that I know and that I enjoyed for a short time ... I simply couldn't fight my bad habits and the "need" to control every aspect of my projects... oh sh...t).

Yes the people are weird sometimes ... some of us are simply that way, but I feel your pain ... I don't understand many people either :?

PD: Damn it, writing in a non-native language took me quite some time. I hope I explained myself.
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Re: New engine: Intrinsic

Postby Duion » 01 Nov 2017, 21:16

rogerdv {l Wrote}:
Duion {l Wrote}:Some new engine creators think they can make money with it, but the chances are very bad for that, since the engine market is oversaturated, especially since the biggest and best engines became pseudofree, so why should anyone use anything else?


I think there is no space for commercial engines, no that Unity, Unreal, CryEngine and Lumberyard are free to use. But there are space for open source engines, because at least Unreal does not permit the creation of open source products. And now, the open source engines have to compete with high quality engines with lot of useful features like cinematic tools, profilers, etc, so I dont see the point in developing open source engines for any reason other than fun and learning.

Most "open source" game developers now use Unity or Unreal. Of course they do not allow open source products, but people still use them for that, since they have no idea about the ideals behind the open source concept.
Second argument is, that there are almost no open source game developers and most of them are using a different engine already and will never switch.

domtron {l Wrote}:Coincidences are interesting. I was just reading some ECS tutorials by the bitsquid guy and he is apparently behind this engine as well. His old engine was brought up by autodesk and this seems to be a new one he is making. Or maybe it is the same one?

@Duion: Here is an article about why you would write an engine in 2017: http://www.randygaul.net/2017/02/24/wri ... e-in-2017/ TL;DR you do it to a) learn, b) have fun, or c) implement a new feature that you don't think other engines do right or at all. The engine/techdemo I'm making (trying anyway) is mostly because I want to see how something with native C++ mods works. It is also stemming from my frustration with poor linux support in gaming. (as a side note my original idea came from a Minetest post about 3-4 years ago so it wasn't spurred by that article which happens to talk about C++ mods/scripting as a valid reason to make a game engine)


You could just add the feature to an existing open source engine or add better support, you would be far far quicker to achieving your goal.
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Re: New engine: Intrinsic

Postby charlie » 01 Nov 2017, 23:20

Duion {l Wrote}:Most "open source" game developers now use Unity or Unreal.

You made that up completely. Please don't do that.

Duion {l Wrote}:You could just add the feature to an existing open source engine or add better support, you would be far far quicker to achieving your goal.

Plenty of people do this e.g. the OpenMW team have contributed to OpenSceneGraph.

Still I don't get why you feel so strongly about this. Let people have their fun. Politely (!) point out a well thought out (!) alternative approach and accept them ignoring or disagreeing with you, or just leave them to it.
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Re: New engine: Intrinsic

Postby Duion » 02 Nov 2017, 09:22

"Having fun" means in most cases not getting anything done, well I cannot stop them anyway, but I can say my opinion to this.
And that most "open source" game developers use Unity or Unreal is not made up, if I go on opengameart for example, then almost anybody there is using Unity for their projects.
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Re: New engine: Intrinsic

Postby farrer » 02 Nov 2017, 10:58

rogerdv {l Wrote}:Today I discovered a new engine, via Phoronix: Intrinsic. It is mostly oriented towards Vulkan, and has interesting features, like its own editor. But it is still in early stages.


Seems good (at last from their pictures and a quick look on its code)... Maybe in a few years, when I (hopefully) get a vulkan-compatible card I can test it ;)
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Re: New engine: Intrinsic

Postby Duion » 02 Nov 2017, 11:03

farrer {l Wrote}:
rogerdv {l Wrote}:Today I discovered a new engine, via Phoronix: Intrinsic. It is mostly oriented towards Vulkan, and has interesting features, like its own editor. But it is still in early stages.


Seems good (at last from their pictures and a quick look on its code)... Maybe in a few years, when I (hopefully) get a vulkan-compatible card I can test it ;)

You are not going to use it anyway, as well as anyone else here commenting, so this is just some kind of self validation talk.
To people who have no clue about how things work it always looks amazing while actually, the rendering techniques are developed by other people already and available for anyone to use, a game engine "just" does the implementation.
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Re: New engine: Intrinsic

Postby farrer » 02 Nov 2017, 11:13

Duion {l Wrote}:
farrer {l Wrote}:
rogerdv {l Wrote}:Today I discovered a new engine, via Phoronix: Intrinsic. It is mostly oriented towards Vulkan, and has interesting features, like its own editor. But it is still in early stages.


Seems good (at last from their pictures and a quick look on its code)... Maybe in a few years, when I (hopefully) get a vulkan-compatible card I can test it ;)

You are not going to use it anyway, as well as anyone else here commenting, so this is just some kind of self validation talk.
To people who have no clue about how things work it always looks amazing while actually, the rendering techniques are developed by other people already and available for anyone to use, a game engine "just" does the implementation.


Ok troll, seems that you know me very well to know exactly what is my knowledge level on anything (probably you have my Curriculum Vitae on your desk right now, right?) and also know very well what I'll do on the future (which is amazing).

Sorry, but what seems a 'self-validation talk' to me is your need to pollute lots of threads here (and on other places, like OGA) with your very particular way of seeing the FLOSS game world (and, why not world view?) and very unpolite way of talking things up.
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Re: New engine: Intrinsic

Postby Duion » 02 Nov 2017, 13:04

I don't know details, I just go by probability, if I know I am correct in 99% of situations I can just generalize things, it makes it much easier than to nitpick every single thing again and again.
And how am I a troll? Can you back up your accusations with evidence?
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Re: New engine: Intrinsic

Postby domtron » 05 Nov 2017, 02:46

farrer {l Wrote}:Seems good (at last from their pictures and a quick look on its code)... Maybe in a few years, when I (hopefully) get a vulkan-compatible card I can test it ;)


Is that why I haven't noticed much FOSS support for Vulkan? I've been wondering why the FOSS community haven't jumped on Vulkan harder. I understand it is a little more bare metal then OpenGL, but I figured there would be more open source rendering engines and other resources popping up. Everytime I look I don't find much. :/
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Re: New engine: Intrinsic

Postby Julius » 05 Nov 2017, 10:14

domtron {l Wrote}:
farrer {l Wrote}:Seems good (at last from their pictures and a quick look on its code)... Maybe in a few years, when I (hopefully) get a vulkan-compatible card I can test it ;)


Is that why I haven't noticed much FOSS support for Vulkan? I've been wondering why the FOSS community haven't jumped on Vulkan harder. I understand it is a little more bare metal then OpenGL, but I figured there would be more open source rendering engines and other resources popping up. Everytime I look I don't find much. :/


GPUs are not really the problem... (even most Intel build in GPUs support Vulkan). The actual reason is that few open-source projects benefit from it, as Vulkan is not the magic bullet people think it is. Unless you work on something very high-end and CPU demanding, your benefits of using Vulkan will be very small and you end up not being able to utilize highly optimized well proven OpenGL libraries/shaders.

Just about the only area of game related open-source software development where Vulkan really makes sense right now, are high end console emulators such as Dolphin & RPCS3. And there you see a lively uptake...
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Re: New engine: Intrinsic

Postby farrer » 05 Nov 2017, 11:13

Vulkan support is only a problem for people like me which have an old graphics card (currently I'm only with a notebook with a low-cost 630M, as my desktop is long dead), and even for cards a bit newer than mime, there's support for it (see: https://developer.nvidia.com/vulkan-driver).

The main problem, as pointed by Julius, is that it won't make too much benefices converting existing projects to use Vulkan instead of, for example, keep using OpenGL 4.2 with VAOs on desktop.

For new projects/engines, for sure it's good to start going full Vulkan (less code to maintain, more platforms supported with very few code differences), but for current ones, probably isn't. To illustrate the point, the position of the main developers of Ogre and Godot:

Ogre's: http://forums.ogre3d.org/viewtopic.php? ... 27#p523091
Godot's: https://github.com/godotengine/godot/is ... -310832434

(side note: I'm able to run and develop my projects using Ogre 2.1 branch with very good performance, even with the old and low-cost mobile card I have... partly, it's the reason for me to wait more time to rebuild a desktop with a decent video card).
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Re: New engine: Intrinsic

Postby Duion » 05 Nov 2017, 19:37

domtron {l Wrote}:I've been wondering why the FOSS community haven't jumped on Vulkan harder./

This assumes that there is anybody who is able to do graphics development in the FOSS scene, but I rather think that there is no such people in the FOSS community.
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Re: New engine: Intrinsic

Postby ferreiradaselva » 14 Nov 2017, 01:32

Duion {l Wrote}:
domtron {l Wrote}:I've been wondering why the FOSS community haven't jumped on Vulkan harder./

This assumes that there is anybody who is able to do graphics development in the FOSS scene, but I rather think that there is no such people in the FOSS community.


I'm not sure that's a reason. Blender, Godot and Dolphin teams are examples of people with good capabilities in graphics.

Vulkan itself is a pain in the ass to setup and to even make a minimal example. And then there are the window front-ends: neither GLFW or SDL were made thinking with Vulkan in mind, since there was no Vulkan at the time. And then there is direct the integration of the 4 back-ends for desktop (Windows, X11, Wayland and Cocoa) with GL. Wayland support in both GLFW and SDL are still missing important features. And while Windows API, X11 and Wayland API are written in C, Cocoa is Objective-C, which just makes things harder to be integrated (though they have a Objective-C Runtime to integrate with C, it's still an extra obstacle).

Julius {l Wrote}:GPUs are not really the problem... (even most Intel build in GPUs support Vulkan). The actual reason is that few open-source projects benefit from it, as Vulkan is not the magic bullet people think it is. Unless you work on something very high-end and CPU demanding, your benefits of using Vulkan will be very small and you end up not being able to utilize highly optimized well proven OpenGL libraries/shaders.


And then there's this (^) reason @Julius mentioned, that I agree with.

Duion {l Wrote}:I don't get why everyone wants to write his own engine now, to me it is just a waste of time.


I will copy-paste what I wrote in other forum, with similar question:
Reinventing the wheel is great when (and when you have the time):
* Your wheel has less dependencies than the current wheels
* Your wheel is faster than the current wheels
* Your wheel is simpler than the current wheels
* The current wheels are obsolete or lack development in the recent years
* It fits your needs better than the current wheels (specialization)
* The current wheels have a license that doesn't fit your needs
* Experience
* When you just want to have fun

And this video with a great response specifically about writing your own game engine:
Handmade Hero | "Why start from scratch vs Using an engine? Why reinvent the wheel?"
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Re: New engine: Intrinsic

Postby charlie » 14 Nov 2017, 09:48

I would imagine that you need to implement friction using bullet (which IIRC it does support).
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