POLL: Which chat system would you like FGD to have?

What are your 3 most preferred chat systems that you would also like to use on FDG?

XMPP through external client
7
18%
XMPP through web-client (chat only)
3
8%
XMPP through advanced web-client (Movim)
1
3%
Matrix through external client
2
5%
Matrix with Riot.im web-client
5
13%
IRC through external client
6
15%
IRC through modern web-client
9
23%
Mattermost
1
3%
RocketChat
0
No votes
Zulip
0
No votes
Mumble Voice Chat
4
10%
Other (comment below)
1
3%
 
Total votes : 39

Re: POLL: Which chat system would you like FGD to have?

Postby Julius » 21 Sep 2018, 05:24

Can those people who chose IRC comment on what their prefferred alternative would be? Given that sad state of our Freenode IRC we probably need to look for an alternative.So far I was hoping the spam wave would stop at some point :(
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Re: POLL: Which chat system would you like FGD to have?

Postby SecureUvula » 21 Sep 2018, 06:49

I had put IRC, but Freenode isn't the friendliest network for Tor users. (Not the worst either, just not good)

So anything you guys self-host with a web UI that doesn't need WebRTC or any new odd UDP features, should work.

I have gotten on Matrix through Tor Browser before.

I think voice chat is a non-starter since it's even more ephemeral than IRC. Imagine "Hello! Is anyone here? (leaves)" but worse.
https://activated-onion.itch.io/ "Not only does she do it for free, she doesn't do it at all."
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Re: POLL: Which chat system would you like FGD to have?

Postby Julius » 21 Sep 2018, 06:54

Can you try if this works though Tor: https://conversejs.org/ ?

Edit: https://conversejs.org/demo/anonymous.html
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Re: POLL: Which chat system would you like FGD to have?

Postby SecureUvula » 24 Sep 2018, 18:03

I think it worked. I saw history messages, but I didn't see anyone talking live.
https://activated-onion.itch.io/ "Not only does she do it for free, she doesn't do it at all."
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Re: POLL: Which chat system would you like FGD to have?

Postby Julius » 24 Sep 2018, 18:28

Good news. Then this will probably be implemented soonish (I got most of the infrastructure in place, just need to find the time to link it all up). First stand-alone, but there is also an (outdated) plugin for Hubzilla (what runs on https://social.freegamedev.net).

The idea is to have a FreeGameDev specific MUC (Multi User Chat) that you can join with any XMPP account & client (the webclient above is only optional). I am also trying to enable to have a free XMPP account for every user from us, but linking that to the existing database is a bit tricky. Right now my idea is to link it to the Hubzilla user database, so you will have to create an new account there (any future updated forum software will likely be linked back to our Hubzilla also, so get your favourite username now ;) ).

With the already running Bitlbee it is then also possible to join this XMPP MUC also with your favorite IRC client if that is preferred by you (but you need to follow the instructions inside Bitlbee on how to set up your XMPP/Jabber account for the bridge to work... but if you are still using IRC, you should be able to manage that :p )

In the further away future we can also link this XMPP MUC to other group chats such as Steam Groups, Discord, Slack, IRC etc. via Matterbridge, but I have not investigated that much.
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Re: POLL: Which chat system would you like FGD to have?

Postby flavio » 25 Sep 2018, 17:45

Julius {l Wrote}:Can those people who chose IRC comment on what their prefferred alternative would be?

Being an IRC user, I haven't a deep knowledge about XMPP and Matrix. Anyway, my feeling is that the current preferred paradigm is towards "media rich" chat systems (e.g. Slack, Discord, ...), so maybe Matrix could match it better imho.
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Re: POLL: Which chat system would you like FGD to have?

Postby Julius » 25 Sep 2018, 18:12

XMPP can be media-rich ;) It has a reputation for being old and limited like IRC, but with the right client that really isn't true for both. You can test the linked above Conversejs as an example, but Movim.eu is probably even a bit nicer as a web-client.

The problem with [Matrix] is that while the frontend web-client client (Riot.im) is nice, the currently available server backend (Synapse) is truly horrendous in regards to performance, database size creep and ram usage. There are also very few nice mobile and desktop clients that don't rely on electron bloatware. So as much as I wanted to run Matrix initially also, it is really totally out of question by now.
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Re: POLL: Which chat system would you like FGD to have?

Postby Julius » 01 Oct 2018, 18:30

Small update: I managed to connect the https://social.freegamedev.net Hubzilla user database to my Ejabberd XMPP server (with a bit of an ugly hack :p I hope to replace that in the future with an proper OAuth2 connection), so hopefully I can enable that very soon for everyone. Now I need to wrestle with DNS and see if I can get XMPP also to work with the same channel name e.g. in my case that would be "poVoq@social.freegamedev.net" (hoping that that will not interfere with the ActivityPub webfinger stuff). But otherwise something like "poVoq@xmpp.freegamedev.net" will work for sure.
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Re: POLL: Which chat system would you like FGD to have?

Postby Julius » 12 Oct 2018, 07:53

qudobup is collecting Discord open-source game channels here: https://discord.gg/usAHQdz
Seems like a good opportunity to link them up via Matterbridge to XMPP (and maybe IRC, but the spam there is still strong).
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Re: POLL: Which chat system would you like FGD to have?

Postby Lyberta » 13 Oct 2018, 15:05

Isn't Discord proprietary? Why are people shooting themselves in the foot?
I'm tired.
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Re: POLL: Which chat system would you like FGD to have?

Postby Julius » 13 Oct 2018, 17:58

Yeah, but it's easy, popular and convenient and doesn't belong to one of the main data-mining companies (yet). So lets engage them where they are and offer bridges (practically and metaphorically) to truly Free services ;)

Edit: It is partially owned by Tencent, which I guess can be filed under data-mining (or worse) :(
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Re: POLL: Which chat system would you like FGD to have?

Postby Julius » 30 Dec 2018, 15:32

https://matrix.org/blog/2018/12/25/the- ... y-special/

Interesting stuff happening over at Matrix.org.
They got a XMPP and Discord bridge now, and apparently their memory and diskspace hogging Synapse server isn't that bad anymore. Also some nice non-JavaScript clients in the works.
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Re: POLL: Which chat system would you like FGD to have?

Postby Julius » 05 Jan 2019, 15:44

If you already have a XMPP account somewhere you can now try the web-chat based on ConverseJS here:
https://chat.freegamedev.net/ https://converse.freegamedev.net/
(uses Javascript of course :p )
Edit: turns out this only works with accounts from xmpp.freegamedev.net due to technical limitations I didn't know about.
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Re: POLL: Which chat system would you like FGD to have?

Postby Julius » 06 Mar 2019, 18:48

Still in testing mode, but you should now be able to use your channel name & password from social.freegamedev.net to log in with any XMPP client, including the webclient on https://chat.freegamedev.net/ https://converse.freegamedev.net/ (edit: only works with these accounts, not other xmpp server accounts).

Just use *yourchannelname*@xmpp.freegamedev.net as your JID.

In my case it would be povoq@xmpp.freegamedev.net

Next up, I'll try to get the Biboumi IRC bridge working again to link it to our IRC chat on freenode. We can also create a regular XMPP MUC if anyone wants to chat :)

Edit: for the time being, here are some popular XMPP MUCs to test it: https://search.jabber.network/rooms/1
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Re: POLL: Which chat system would you like FGD to have?

Postby Julius » 10 Mar 2019, 15:53

Any feedback of Bitlebee Vs. This: https://github.com/moparisthebest/xmpp-ircd
For IRC connections?

The second one is obviously much more basic than Bitlebee, but it should allow very easy and configuration free connection to XMPP MUCs with any IRC client.

It also doesn't deal with accounts etc. which from a privacy and data security perspective is also much preferable. Should somewhat increase the spam risk though.

Edit: I should say that for maintenance and a few other reasons I am not planning to run an IRC daemon directly. So for those that voted IRC in this poll the above options would be a convenient/only way to join the XMPP MUCs with an IRC client.
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Re: POLL: Which chat system would you like FGD to have?

Postby Julius » 11 Mar 2019, 18:48

If you are testing it, please join me on the general discussion MUC:
{l Code}: {l Select All Code}
fgd_general@conference.xmpp.freegamedev.net
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Re: POLL: Which chat system would you like FGD to have?

Postby Julius » 13 Mar 2019, 09:55

Turns out the ConverseJS that I put on chat.freegamedev.net only works with xmpp accounts from xmpp.freegamedev.net due to some technical limitation I was not aware of until now.
There are some solutions to it, but none easy or quick it seems.
So I am rethinking the webchat options... maybe we try Movim after all as that works with any account for sure.
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Re: POLL: Which chat system would you like FGD to have?

Postby Julius » 15 Mar 2019, 08:10

The XMPP to IRC bridge (Biboumi) seems to be working again.
Use
{l Code}: {l Select All Code}
#freegamer%chat.freenode.net@irc.xmpp.freegamedev.net


As a group chat MUC JID to your XMPP client and it will connect you to the #Freegamer channel on IRC!
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Re: POLL: Which chat system would you like FGD to have?

Postby Julius » 15 Mar 2019, 17:59

Also, XMPP E2EE via OMEMO should work with the right client: http://omemo.top/
Personally I use Gajim (on Linux) and Conversations (on Android).
But Dino looks like a really cool upcoming client. Otherwise Kaidan is interesting because it is cross platform and also brand new.
I also recently tried Yaxim, which doesn't support OMEMO yet, but is otherwise a quite nice (albeit not so fancy looking) Android client.

Last but not least the Movim app is (for an electron wrapper) really fast and nice. But it requires a Movim server in between, which I have not yet setup again (but are planning to).
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Re: POLL: Which chat system would you like FGD to have?

Postby Julius » 19 Mar 2019, 23:35

Some compliance test results for the XMPP server for those wondering:
https://compliance.conversations.im/ser ... medev.net/
https://xmpp.net/result.php?id=1453690
https://xmpp.net/result.php?id=1453691

Overall quite happy with the results, and if you use a OMEMO supporting client (https://omemo.top/) your you should be able to have a pretty secure chat server.
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Re: POLL: Which chat system would you like FGD to have?

Postby Julius » 03 Apr 2019, 23:54

Just as a cross reference: https://forum.freegamedev.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11532
(Seems like collaborative code editing via XMPP is possible :) )
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Re: POLL: Which chat system would you like FGD to have?

Postby Julius » 10 Apr 2019, 11:25

For those already using the XMPP service with their Hubzilla account, can you please register an account on the new Friendica page at freegamedev.net ?
I am going to move over the main user database that the XMPP server connects to in a few days. Sorry for any inconveniences caused by that... but you are all alpha testers here :p
Still under consideration given some smaller performance issues with Friendica.
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Re: POLL: Which chat system would you like FGD to have?

Postby Julius » 20 Apr 2019, 00:13

Maybe a simpler option to get a messaging bridge from Discord to XMPP running:
https://github.com/shtrih/discord-xmpp-transport-bot
edit: or maybe this one? https://github.com/miraris/discord-xmpp-bridge

This might work to channel messages from IRC to XMPP:
https://github.com/h42i/hasibot
(seems to utilize the biboumi bridge that I have already working)
Edit: also cool: https://github.com/IceflowRE/irc-discord-relay

I have been planning to run Matterbridge, but I am having issues with its Docker image, and the majority of the bridges offered by it are anyways not needed. But I think if we run individual bridges it might cause issues with circular messages, so it definitely needs more testing. Matterbridge is probably much easier if it is a multi bridge between XMPP-IRC-Discort(-Mumble?).
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Re: POLL: Which chat system would you like FGD to have?

Postby Julius » 25 Apr 2019, 11:05

After long back and forth consideration, and extensively testing various options (mainly various XMPP & IRC options and Matrix) this is the current take-away:
- Matrix is a buggy resource hog and thus unsuitable. The Web-client looks nice though.
- XMPP is working well and very light-weight on server resources, but currently caters to a very niche user group (esp. in regards to nice to use web and desktop clients). The Gateway to IRC is great, but otherwise bridging is relatively limited. Integrations in other services are ok, but could be better. As it is very lightweight, I will probably continue running a server, but I don't see it being a good way to attract new people to FreeGameDev or provide a credible alternative to Discord (more on that below).
- IRC has made some good improvements lately, but ultimately relies on a lot of not so well maintained legacy tech and is a bit of a headache to administer.

So all in all none of the above options really strike me as a way to renew this community, which is ultimately the goal of this little slow moving project of providing more modern web-services (besides learning how these things work on the side).

What I will try to set up next is Mattermost: https://mattermost.com/
Given that it is written in Go, it is reasonably resource efficient and has a nice modern chat interface with all the features people have come to expect. It also caters to a large extend to software developers and thus features a lot of nice integrations with Github/Gitlab etc. which is a good fit for our community ("linking open-source game developers with players").
It can also act as an IRC server, thus usage with IRC clients (some of which are really nice) is likely top-notch.

But the two main driving points are that it is very extendable with custom web-hooks and integrations of various stuff like Jitsi etc. and that its integration with the Matterbridge software is first grade. This currently allows near perfect bridging to Discord (and to a lesser grade of perfection many other chat services including XMPP, IRC and Matrix). I consider Discord to be especially important, as it is by far the service with the highest usage by the gaming community and even many open-source game development projects have opted to use it as their primary channel of communication. Thus as much as I personally don't like this non-Free service, realistically speaking there is currently no way around it. Mattermost/Matterbridge then seems to provide the smoothest interaction with it through FOSS tools and thus the best invitation to new users to switch to a Libre alternative.

The disadvantage of Mattermost is that it is non-federated and thus a single point of failure. I think we can mitigate this a bit by bridging to as many other services as possible, but I am not super happy about this.

Anyways, additional thoughts and comments on this topic are appreciated.
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Re: POLL: Which chat system would you like FGD to have?

Postby fluffrabbit » 25 Apr 2019, 20:03

I don't have much to say about Mattermost. Looks kinda boring.

In the few times I have used Discord, I was very confused about what was going on. Lots of flashing lights. I'm not trying to pilot the Space Shuttle, I'm just trying to chat. If there are links to other groups in Discord I'm not aware of them.

The Mumble web client feels a lot like a simplified Discord. I think you could get Discord people to use it.

The real communities are Facebook (people over 50) and Steam (gamers). Maybe there is a way to bridge with those?
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