Black Obelisk (puzzle), Evil Cult (strategy)

[starinfidel]

> Just i case you did not know, but there is a open source version of Masters of Orion, it is called FreeOrion

Yeah, I've been following this for a few years. Is it playable yet?

[Skorpio]

Just i case you did not know, but there is a open source version of Masters of Orion, it is called FreeOrion

Yes, but I have all 3 MoOs and the only one that I still play from time to time is MoO 1. The others involved too much micromanagement for my taste. As a galactic emperor I don't want to know if my minions build a laboratory or a new toilet on some hillbilly planet, I just want to allocate resources and tell them to work on the damned death rays first.

I mentioned EC before. Were it the videos that caught your attention? Glad to have infected you though! Also thanks for the MoO hint; I've been playing some MoO2 lately and too-much-micro is my major complaint.

The first line caught my interest: "One of my favorite games. A 4X (explore, expand, exploit, and exterminate) turn-based game with little micro-management so far (I consider this a huge plus)."
4X is one of my favorite genres, especially MoO and the Civ series (including Alpha Centauri). ATM I play FreeCol (actually I enjoy the micro in Civ and FreeCol, but not in MoO).

[richardjames13]

MOO2 is problematic if you have a large empire. Even with auto-build on it be quite some trouble to manage half the galaxy. I think it is a problem in the interface. It is not quick enough to do many tasks. If you could speed them up it would be much better.

Maybe someone will make a clone that does just that.

[starinfidel]

New dev release, v4pre2, is up at http://starinfidel.co.cc/cult-04pre2/!

The list of significant changes includes:

* Sects - after the cult grows to some point every cult member can make a sect for himself. Sect is useful for lots of small tasks - gaining information about other cults, confusing investigators, etc.
* HTML5 Canvas for map display - map no longer uses crazy divs for displaying nodes and lines between them. Everything consists of images now which are drawn on canvas surface.
* Virtual map bigger than the screen - canvas display almost immediately lead to implementing the old feature request of bigger maps. Minimap included.
* Custom game - you can now set all difficulty parameters in a separate "Custom game" window
* Local Multiplayer - up to 4 players (and more after I'm done with cult colors) can now play on the same computer.
* And a nifty favicon, courtesy of qubodup!

You can read a big blog post about this release at http://starinfidel.blogspot.com/2011/07/evil-cult-v4pre2-release.html

[Skorpio]

Good job! I really like the new sects. Where can I find some more information about their tasks?

I only have a problem with scrolling in the new version. When I scroll down or to the right I can't click the nodes anymore. There seems to be an offset. I can still see the description windows when I point the mouse a bit lower, but I can't click them.

[starinfidel]

> Good job! I really like the new sects. Where can I find some more information about their tasks?

Thanks! I will update the manual today and write about it here.

> I only have a problem with scrolling in the new version. When I scroll down or to the right I can't click the nodes anymore. There seems to be an offset. I can still see the description windows when I point the mouse a bit lower, but I can't click them.

Do you by any chance scale the page? What browser do you use? I admit I haven't tested it thoroughly enough.

[starinfidel]

Fixed a few display bugs while writing manual on sects. The v4pre2 version on website is updated to the latest. Always good to write manuals, you can find some discrepancies between your thinking and the actual behavior

The manual now has a section on sects and is available here: http://code.google.com/p/cult/wiki/Manual_v4pre2

[Skorpio]

I use Firefox 3.6.18 and I haven't scaled the page. Thanks for the manual update.

[starinfidel]

I use Firefox 3.6.18 and I haven't scaled the page. Thanks for the manual update.

Oh, you meant the window scroll, not map scroll. I uploaded the fixed version, try it now.

[starinfidel]

The latest stable release, v4, is up. No changes from v4pre2, just a version increment.

[qubodup]

I liked the earlier versions for their simplicity (little micro-management) and fast pace. The fact that everything was visible on one screen served both of these points.

Sects could work if their management was simplified. Perhaps sects could be auto-formed and you would have a fixed number of sects (depending on number of followers for example) and all you have to do is to distribute them between 3 or 4 possible tasks. The menu for doing so should be part of the main screen ideally.

Having to switch them back and forth from Investigator hunt is quite time consuming. It might make sense that all sects interrupt whatever they are doing when investigators are around.

PS: small (considering how many people complain about html5 audio perhaps not all that small) suggestion - notification sound when something happens. special sound when a new investigator appears.

[starinfidel]

> I liked the earlier versions for their simplicity (little micro-management) and fast pace. The fact that everything was visible on one screen served both of these points.

Well, I can't add new stuff without increasing overall complexity of the game. You can always play v3, though, if you want a faster gameplay.

> Sects could work if their management was simplified. Perhaps sects could be auto-formed and you would have a fixed number of sects (depending on number of followers for example) and all you have to do is to distribute them between 3 or 4 possible tasks. The menu for doing so should be part of the main screen ideally.

I see what you mean but my plan always was to add complexity until I feel there's enough depth. Simplifying sects would directly contradict that. I'm not aiming at Dwarf Fortress level of complexity but I also do not intend to leave the game as simple as it is now. So, be prepared

> Having to switch them back and forth from Investigator hunt is quite time consuming. It might make sense that all sects interrupt whatever they are doing when investigators are around.

Please, explain some more. I haven't noticed all that much switching myself.

> PS: small (considering how many people complain about html5 audio perhaps not all that small) suggestion - notification sound when something happens. special sound when a new investigator appears.

The event "!" is now blinking in case of an investigator appearing, that should help. Sounds are a good idea, though.

[qubodup]

I should mention that I am that kind of player who likes building the first and second planet buildings in Master of Orion 2 or the buildings in the first few towns in FreeCiv but hate doing that micro again and again.

> Having to switch them back and forth from Investigator hunt is quite time consuming. It might make sense that all sects interrupt whatever they are doing when investigators are around.

Please, explain some more. I haven't noticed all that much switching myself.

I can have multiple Sects. I can give them different tasks.
When I have an investigator I want him being found and removed ASAP. I have to go to the sects menu and change their tasks for this. (Does this explain it? or perhaps I missed something)

[starinfidel]

> I should mention that I am that kind of player who likes building the first and second planet buildings in Master of Orion 2 or the buildings in the first few towns in FreeCiv but hate doing that micro again and again.

I agree with you, micro tends to get boring after the first X or so "units". What we don't agree on is X

> When I have an investigator I want him being found and removed ASAP. I have to go to the sects menu and change their tasks for this.

But you only do this once per investigator. Or is it too much already?

Well, I can understand where you're going. The current UI was built in the most general way possible to allow for potential expansion of the available tasks. I will think some more on how to make it easier to use but don't hold you breath - turn-based games are all about 4X + micromanagement. I want to add new stuff to the game and I don't think there's a way to do that without increasing its complexity.

[qubodup]

I was able to play EC on hard before and win. Now I can't any more and that's why I disliked the increase of complexity, it meant that I had to work more.

(Remember, I'm just one of many player types - I'm just presenting my way of thinking).

I tried on easy and it's fun again I sometimes use the sect feature but it's very unpleasant to use. I need to switch to a different window and the importance isn't even all that evident.

You plan is to make sects/members individuals and have skills. If you were to remain at the current level of complexity, sects would form automatically and instead of interacting with sects, you would interact with tasks. You would have N sect resouces, which you could distribute on different tasks (investigate that enemy, find investigators etc.) This might even fit into the main menu. But this is not releveant if your plan remains to add character customization

I have one request: add a 'close' button to the main menu after game over. Sometimes I press keys while trying to make screenshot and I can't because I accidentally get into the main menu

/me goes play another round

PS: I attached a game in which I didn't attack even once. My tactic: expand, then guarantee 0 awareness at end of round. Apparently enemies can be vulnerable to investigators (easy mode) Also I changed some colors (borders, bg) of the screen here I would much prefer if the borders weren't as bright as they are now. Subtle separation of the screen is enough, as it is sufficient when the subconsciousness notices the logical divisions of the screen.

PPS: I had another easy victory in easy mode. But this is good. The game being easy on easy is good. MOO2 had an 'easy' mode and it was too hard for me at times..

[Tranberry]

I am on the same level as Q, try to add the complexity outside the interface and interaction. But just as Q said there are many kind of gamer's.

[starinfidel]

> I was able to play EC on hard before and win. Now I can't any more and that's why I disliked the increase of complexity, it meant that I had to work more.
> (Remember, I'm just one of many player types - I'm just presenting my way of thinking).

Players of my games are all silent types, so your opinion is one of... ten or so

> I tried on easy and it's fun again I sometimes use the sect feature but it's very unpleasant to use. I need to switch to a different window and the importance isn't even all that evident.

Well, good thing you've found something fun in the new version

> You plan is to make sects/members individuals and have skills. If you were to remain at the current level of complexity, sects would form automatically and instead of interacting with sects, you would interact with tasks. You would have N sect resouces, which you could distribute on different tasks (investigate that enemy, find investigators etc.) This might even fit into the main menu. But this is not releveant if your plan remains to add character customization

My so-called "plan" does not exist. The game is not currently in development and I've just voiced a few of my ideas. That does not mean the development will go that way. I will take your opinion into consideration when I'll start working on EC again - I'm not a fan of too much micromanagement myself.

> I have one request: add a 'close' button to the main menu after game over. Sometimes I press keys while trying to make screenshot and I can't because I accidentally get into the main menu

Okay, will do. Though can't promise when that will be.

> /me goes play another round

> PS: I attached a game in which I didn't attack even once. My tactic: expand, then guarantee 0 awareness at end of round. Apparently enemies can be vulnerable to investigators (easy mode) Also I changed some colors (borders, bg) of the screen here I would much prefer if the borders weren't as bright as they are now. Subtle separation of the screen is enough, as it is sufficient when the subconsciousness notices the logical divisions of the screen.

When players is on easy, AI plays on hard. And it doesn't handle hard investigators all that well About the border colors - yes, I'll try switching white to lightgray later.

> PPS: I had another easy victory in easy mode. But this is good. The game being easy on easy is good. MOO2 had an 'easy' mode and it was too hard for me at times..

Well, I'm guessing you're not a hardcore TBS fan

[starinfidel]

After 3 months hiatus I started to work on a new version. For now, small balancing tweaks designed to make the game more interesting and bugfixes. The absolutely latest version that has something new to show will now be here:
http://www.in-fi-del.net/static/cult-dev/index.html

Here's the list of changes:

- AI cheat: investigators will cap starting willpower
- much lower chance of investigator killing cult origin
- automatically un-paralyze cult after 3 turns even if it has no priests (you can still win the game when all enemy cults are paralyzed at the same time)
- when un-paralyzed, a new origin will be made a temporary generator (stops being a generator when lost)
- investigator will now disappear after destroying the cult origin thinking he destroyed the whole cult
- bug: when searching for a node to be a sect leader, was not using the most connected node
- bug: node visibility for enemy cult was not correctly updated on losing that node

With these changes I played some games on easy to ensure that the player now has some degree of challenge. It seems that now it's not possible to win just be waiting. With these tweaks even the losing AI always has a second chance.
Also, I plan to implement something that will resemble Left 4 Dead AI director - special code that will check each turn to make things slightly harder for the player when he is considered "strong" and helping weakest cult. That should also make the game more interesting.

My list of current ideas is:
- cult with lowest amount of generators that is also lower by 20% than the next one, will have a chance of gaining a temp generator. I will probably make that a random event raising the probability for weak cults and lowering for strong ones. And those generators will exist only for 3-5 turns.
- when cult has no virgins, raise chance to gather some
- cult that has 20% more generators than everyone, can lose a generator for 3-5 turns. same thing about events and probability.

Feel free to think up other stuff for the director.

[qubodup]

The tooltips are irritating

[starinfidel]

The tooltips are irritating

What do you mean?

[qubodup]

Sorry for not explaining.

I suppose I play the "decide what node to capture next" step like this:
1. look at node I find interesting, assume to know its price (I keep awareness low, so usually it's 1 or 2 resources)
2. start moving cursor towards that node
3. start looking for other nodes to capture afterwards
4. mouse reaches node
5. pop-up appears between my eyes and the nodes I'm inspecting - this is irritating

EDIT: Actually, I think I am waiting for the mouse to reach the node before looking for other ones but once I captured the node, I start looking for new nodes but the tooltip foces me to first having to move the mouse away and not on top of another node.

There are different solutions:
1. add a timer before tooltip/node-info appears (0.5s?)
2. redesign the node info
3. both (numbers shown instant/minimal - see below, name/rank appears after delay)
alternatively the name/rank could appear in a status bar.

I have an idea for my sects dilemma, which should make micro cost less gui-navigation-time.
1. allow upgrading adepts by clicking on them in a context menu which then appears, rather than having to got to the sects menu
2. indicate upgradable adepts and whether a sect is busy on the main map
3. allow to set sect tasks in a context menu from main map

[starinfidel]

Sorry for not explaining.

I suppose I play the "decide what node to capture next" step like this:
1. look at node I find interesting, assume to know its price (I keep awareness low, so usually it's 1 or 2 resources)
2. start moving cursor towards that node
3. start looking for other nodes to capture afterwards
4. mouse reaches node
5. pop-up appears between my eyes and the nodes I'm inspecting - this is irritating

EDIT: Actually, I think I am waiting for the mouse to reach the node before looking for other ones but once I captured the node, I start looking for new nodes but the tooltip foces me to first having to move the mouse away and not on top of another node.

There are different solutions:
1. add a timer before tooltip/node-info appears (0.5s?)
2. redesign the node info
3. both (numbers shown instant/minimal - see below, name/rank appears after delay)
alternatively the name/rank could appear in a status bar.

cultgui.png

Something like this? (Press A to enter advanced map mode)
http://www.in-fi-del.net/static/cult-dev/index.html

Changes:
- advanced map mode (toggled by pressing A)
- when cult loses origin remove investigator only if no priests are available
- bug: map display was not updated after sect creation

I have an idea for my sects dilemma, which should make micro cost less gui-navigation-time.
1. allow upgrading adepts by clicking on them in a context menu which then appears, rather than having to got to the sects menu
2. indicate upgradable adepts and whether a sect is busy on the main map
3. allow to set sect tasks in a context menu from main map

Excellent! I've had a vague idea about integrating sect stuff into main map view but you've nailed it already
One thing though - every cult follower can make a sect for himself, nothing needs to be indicated.

[qubodup]

Something like this? (Press A to enter advanced map mode)
http://www.in-fi-del.net/static/cult-dev/index.html

Perfect! Remove the tool-tip and instead highlight nodes' background to indicate active hover (you could also make the cursor change to 'pointer' for click-able nodes) and it's great!

The resource numbers could probably be replaced by little blocks to save space and reduce clutter. This would only work if the max of total resources is approx. 6. The % number feels cluttery but is of great information value to the player! Just like the resource costs. You could try making it less bright, or reduce brightness of "%" or remove "%". A progress bar would probably suck because the most interesting information is between 80 and 99% but it'd still need to show the whole range.

Bad idea: It could show the probability compared to all currently invade-able nodes, so when max is 90 and min is 85, 85 would be empty and 90 would be full. But the range would have to be shown somewhere...

Using the actual % number is the clearest, so I would look for a way to keep it. A minimal bitmap font could be the solution.

cc0

minifont.png (271 Bytes) Viewed 13463 times

EDIT: that font is too small. Here are some other attempts. I think the 4x6 bitmap font for both is best, as it's compact and flexible (blocks are not flexible, numbers can go up to 9,9,9)

cc0

2011-11-16-140501_1920x1200_scrot.png (2.59 KiB) Viewed 13461 times

[starinfidel]

> Perfect! Remove the tool-tip and instead highlight nodes' background to indicate active hover (you could also make the cursor change to 'pointer' for click-able nodes) and it's great!

Okay, removed the tooltips, check it out. As for highlighting, I don't think it's needed. After all, it is Advanced mode :P

> The resource numbers could probably be replaced by little blocks to save space and reduce clutter. This would only work if the max of total resources is approx. 6. The % number feels cluttery but is of great information value to the player! Just like the resource costs. You could try making it less bright, or reduce brightness of "%" or remove "%". A progress bar would probably suck because the most interesting information is between 80 and 99% but it'd still need to show the whole range.

Blocks are a nice idea but unfortunately something like an enemy origin of a big cult could take up to 4 resources of each kind to conquer (saw it today).

> Bad idea: It could show the probability compared to all currently invade-able nodes, so when max is 90 and min is 85, 85 would be empty and 90 would be full. But the range would have to be shown somewhere...

We could try to think of something different but like with highlighting, "advanced" implies player knows what he's doing, so the raw number is best.

> Using the actual % number is the clearest, so I would look for a way to keep it. A minimal bitmap font could be the solution.

Wait, you think the current font is too big? Because on my 24-inch screen it's just perfect. Making it 10pt instead of 11pt just makes it a bit blurry. I do like the font that's on the screenshot in the top-right corner though. The most minimal is somewhat tiresome to read.

[qubodup]

I think the current font is good to read but clutters up the screen, especially with overlapping node information areas.

The 3x5px one is too horrible, yes. The top right is a 4x6px one. Should I slice it up into single image files? Would you need different images for different colors or can you color them in css/js? (I have no idea...)