Why are almost all open source games copycats?

Re: Why are almost all open source games copycats?

Postby Arthur » 01 Nov 2017, 18:03

Ideas are not copyrightable, and if they were, you'd have to say goodbye to pretty much any game newer than 1990.
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Re: Why are almost all open source games copycats?

Postby Duion » 01 Nov 2017, 21:11

Arthur {l Wrote}:Ideas are not copyrightable, and if they were, you'd have to say goodbye to pretty much any game newer than 1990.

It is still stealing or at least a dick move. But in many cases the original product is even reverse engineered, stealing the original content and rebuilding the same product.
I'm fine with building something inspired by something, but not creating an exact copy. I mean this behavior is as worse or even worse than the typical ripoff products from china etc, but the chinese ripoff products even though they are pretty much exact the same, still make it under their own brand name.
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Re: Why are almost all open source games copycats?

Postby onpon4 » 01 Nov 2017, 21:45

Not just since the 1990s. What was the first successful game again? Oh, right, Pong. Was that an original idea? No. It was based on ping-pong and/or air hockey. All creative works involve building on past ideas that you didn't come up with. This isn't a "dick move" and certainly isn't "stealing".

But in many cases the original product is even reverse engineered

I've seen projects like this, but very few of them are libre. Things like the various Mario fangame engines that try to mimic Super Mario World or Super Mario Bros 3 as closely as they could. Courts may agree that this is copyright infringement in some cases. I know that at least one court has ruled in favor of the Tetris Troll based on this in the past. But this is (morally) wrong. Copyright should not be that extensive. I don't care how integral the way a program works is to a game experience; behavior of a program should not ever be copyrightable.

but the chinese ripoff products even though they are pretty much exact the same, still make it under their own brand name.

I agree that improper trademark usage is wrong. But that has nothing to do with whether copying ideas, gameplay styles, or even how an engine works is wrong. I don't care if your game is original or not, if you label it "Nintendo", you are lying if you are not either Nintendo or someone who is authorized by Nintendo to use the name.

However, the people who are guilty of trademark infringement seem to me to never be developing libre software. Usually they're developing proprietary fangames.
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Re: Why are almost all open source games copycats?

Postby Duion » 01 Nov 2017, 22:15

If you would create "open-pong" and release an exact copy that you reverse engineered it is legally a pretty clear case of stealing/copyright infringement.
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Re: Why are almost all open source games copycats?

Postby onpon4 » 01 Nov 2017, 22:43

This is a discussion about ethics, so bringing up what is and isn't copyright infringement is nothing more than an argument from authority. As I said:

Courts may agree that this is copyright infringement in some cases.... But this is (morally) wrong. Copyright should not be that extensive.
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Re: Why are almost all open source games copycats?

Postby Duion » 01 Nov 2017, 22:49

It is not about authority is is about common sense, as I said even in a society without any laws at all the case would be clear.
If I create something and I do not want others to have it, then you are violating my natural right, if you steal it from me.
Even if you get away with it through legal loopholes etc, it is still unethical.
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Re: Why are almost all open source games copycats?

Postby charlie » 01 Nov 2017, 23:24

Duion {l Wrote}:
Arthur {l Wrote}:Ideas are not copyrightable, and if they were, you'd have to say goodbye to pretty much any game newer than 1990.

It is still stealing or at least a dick move.

It is not and please keep the language clean.

It is not stealing because nobody is having anything removed from them. There is no physical loss nor a loss of revenue to the makers of Transport Tycoon because of OpenTTD etc. Often these projects lend new leases of life to old games, porting them to other platforms, encouraging sales of the originals. In some cases they make free content alternatives e.g. Freeciv but nobody makes that a 1-to-1 copy because _that_ would be infringing on the "Intellectual Property" and "Copyright" rights of the original game makers, not re-implementing the engine.

Also what is and is not a clone? Is STK a clone of MarioKart? Really? It's no more a clone than Duke3D is of Doom.
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Re: Why are almost all open source games copycats?

Postby charlie » 01 Nov 2017, 23:25

Duion {l Wrote}:It is not about authority is is about common sense

I'm not sure you are the best person for dictating what is and is not common sense.
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Re: Why are almost all open source games copycats?

Postby onpon4 » 02 Nov 2017, 02:43

If I create something and I do not want others to have it, then you are violating my natural right

Funny how this "natural right" didn't even exist as a concept until after the invention of the printing press, after at least 6500 years (90%) of writing history. Funny also how this "natural right", by its very nature, requires a state to impose power on other people.

No, copyright is not a "natural right". It's a business strategy that the government helps publishers with. It's also obsolete, because we don't have the same economy of scale that we did with the printing press any more.
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Re: Why are almost all open source games copycats?

Postby Duion » 02 Nov 2017, 09:36

onpon4 {l Wrote}:
If I create something and I do not want others to have it, then you are violating my natural right

Funny how this "natural right" didn't even exist as a concept until after the invention of the printing press, after at least 6500 years (90%) of writing history. Funny also how this "natural right", by its very nature, requires a state to impose power on other people.

No, copyright is not a "natural right". It's a business strategy that the government helps publishers with. It's also obsolete, because we don't have the same economy of scale that we did with the printing press any more.

The natural right did always exist, that is why it is a natural right and it never needed printing presses or the state to exist, just to enforce it properly. I was also not saying that copyright law is a natural right, but that the natural right is attached to your creations.

charlie {l Wrote}:
Duion {l Wrote}:It is not about authority is is about common sense

I'm not sure you are the best person for dictating what is and is not common sense.

That is not an argument.

charlie {l Wrote}:
Duion {l Wrote}:
Arthur {l Wrote}:Ideas are not copyrightable, and if they were, you'd have to say goodbye to pretty much any game newer than 1990.

It is still stealing or at least a dick move.

It is not and please keep the language clean.

Is the word "stealing" now censorworthy as well, because it sounds so "negative"?

It is not stealing because nobody is having anything removed from them. There is no physical loss nor a loss of revenue to the makers of Transport Tycoon because of OpenTTD etc. Often these projects lend new leases of life to old games, porting them to other platforms, encouraging sales of the originals. In some cases they make free content alternatives e.g. Freeciv but nobody makes that a 1-to-1 copy because _that_ would be infringing on the "Intellectual Property" and "Copyright" rights of the original game makers, not re-implementing the engine.

Also what is and is not a clone? Is STK a clone of MarioKart? Really? It's no more a clone than Duke3D is of Doom.

There is no pshysical loss, since the product does not even exist physically to begin with, so this is a useless comparison.
What there is though is the loss of immaterial values such as appreciation for the original creator.
The copy may not be 1-to-1 but still a copy and the intent to copy is made even more clear by keeping the original brand name and just adding a "free" or "open" in front of it.
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Re: Why are almost all open source games copycats?

Postby Arthur » 02 Nov 2017, 10:29

Pretty sure that more people will appreciate the original when there's something similar around to also gain marketshare. Take music for example - a whole lot of the most popular songs of all time are in fact newer versions of old jazz, blues or folk songs. I've found songs I've liked, done a web search and found the original, and only then have I been able to appreciate the original version.

When it comes to SuperTuxKart, the people downloading it are not taking any sales away from Nintendo since it's for other platforms. You can't get MarioKart on PC without emulating it (which could be just as questionable morally since you're "taking away" sales of their consoles), and people that have played both do not seem to think it's the same. STK if intended as a straight up clone would be a pretty bad one at that. Also consider that people are able to have similar ideas without trying to copy each other. For example work was started on soccer mode for STK before any of us knew of Rocket League which is possibly the most well-known "football with cars" game in existence. And the physics of the two are nothing alike.

The FPS and rouge-like RPG genres would just have one or two games in them at all by your reasoning.
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Re: Why are almost all open source games copycats?

Postby Duion » 02 Nov 2017, 11:06

Of course they will not take away any of their customers, since there are almost no customers for open source games.
The primary reason something like fan art is tolerated is that it is irrelevant to the overall market, once it becomes big, it gets taken down or taken over.
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Re: Why are almost all open source games copycats?

Postby charlie » 02 Nov 2017, 12:26

Duion {l Wrote}:
charlie {l Wrote}:
Duion {l Wrote}:It is still stealing or at least a dick move.

It is not and please keep the language clean.

Is the word "stealing" now censorworthy as well, because it sounds so "negative"?

This is why I think you are a troll. The word 'dick' is offensive the way you are using it. You are calling people dicks because you disagree with them philosophically.

Duion {l Wrote}:
charlie {l Wrote}:It is not stealing because nobody is having anything removed from them. There is no physical loss nor a loss of revenue to the makers of Transport Tycoon because of OpenTTD etc. Often these projects lend new leases of life to old games, There is no pshysical loss, since the product does not even exist physically to begin with, so this is a useless comparison.

What there is though is the loss of immaterial values such as appreciation for the original creator.
[/quote]
You expose the shallowness of your own arguments here.

Firstly, you called it stealing, so the comparison is VERY relevant to your own use of the language.

Secondly, how does it rob the original creator of appreciation? Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, for starters. How many people would speak of Transport Tycoon now if it werent' for OpenTTD? None! So it INCREASES apprecation, thereby wiping out the entire foundation to your rather ill thought out position.
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Re: Why are almost all open source games copycats?

Postby Duion » 02 Nov 2017, 13:02

charlie {l Wrote}:
Duion {l Wrote}:
charlie {l Wrote}:
Duion {l Wrote}:It is still stealing or at least a dick move.

It is not and please keep the language clean.

Is the word "stealing" now censorworthy as well, because it sounds so "negative"?

This is why I think you are a troll. The word 'dick' is offensive the way you are using it. You are calling people dicks because you disagree with them philosophically.

Duion {l Wrote}:
charlie {l Wrote}:It is not stealing because nobody is having anything removed from them. There is no physical loss nor a loss of revenue to the makers of Transport Tycoon because of OpenTTD etc. Often these projects lend new leases of life to old games, There is no pshysical loss, since the product does not even exist physically to begin with, so this is a useless comparison.

What there is though is the loss of immaterial values such as appreciation for the original creator.

You expose the shallowness of your own arguments here.

Firstly, you called it stealing, so the comparison is VERY relevant to your own use of the language.

Secondly, how does it rob the original creator of appreciation? Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, for starters. How many people would speak of Transport Tycoon now if it werent' for OpenTTD? None! So it INCREASES apprecation, thereby wiping out the entire foundation to your rather ill thought out position.

I did not call anyone a dick, I was just saying in a hypothetical scenario someone doing it would be doing a dick move, no idea how to translate this to english otherwise. So nobody ever got called a dick by me here.

And if people would like to get their creations stolen, there would be nothing like copyright law to prevent this. The mere existance of a copyright is absolute proof, the creator does not want to get his creation stolen or copied, that is why they apply a copyright to it.
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Re: Why are almost all open source games copycats?

Postby charlie » 02 Nov 2017, 14:11

Duion {l Wrote}:And if people would like to get their creations stolen, there would be nothing like copyright law to prevent this.

I like the way you entirely ignored my bigger point which pretty much eradicated your argument at its root.

Anyway, copyright law is but 1 solution to enabling creators to stop others from exploiting their work. I don't recall clones etc to be exploitative unless they are monetized on Google Play etc.
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Re: Why are almost all open source games copycats?

Postby charlie » 02 Nov 2017, 14:20

Duion {l Wrote}:I did not call anyone a dick, I was just saying in a hypothetical scenario someone doing it would be doing a dick move, no idea how to translate this to english otherwise. So nobody ever got called a dick by me here.

You are oblivious to your own words:

Duion {l Wrote}:It is still stealing or at least a dick move.

You are calling open source devs, especially those who "clone" games (or make games inspired by others) thieves and dicks.
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Re: Why are almost all open source games copycats?

Postby Lyberta » 02 Nov 2017, 14:36

charlie {l Wrote}:In some cases they make free content alternatives e.g. Freeciv but nobody makes that a 1-to-1 copy because _that_ would be infringing on the "Intellectual Property" and "Copyright" rights of the original game makers, not re-implementing the engine.


Not this one again..

Anyway, this thread got duioned hard. Yes, duion is now a verb.
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Re: Why are almost all open source games copycats?

Postby Duion » 02 Nov 2017, 14:50

charlie {l Wrote}:
Duion {l Wrote}:I did not call anyone a dick, I was just saying in a hypothetical scenario someone doing it would be doing a dick move, no idea how to translate this to english otherwise. So nobody ever got called a dick by me here.

You are oblivious to your own words:

Duion {l Wrote}:It is still stealing or at least a dick move.

You are calling open source devs, especially those who "clone" games (or make games inspired by others) thieves and dicks.

Thief yes, dick not, a "dick move" is a "not so nice behavior", so I call them "not nice persons" if they do that, is this enough censorship for you?
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Re: Why are almost all open source games copycats?

Postby onpon4 » 02 Nov 2017, 17:36

The natural right did always exist

You are so full of it. Before the invention of copyright around 500 years ago, it was expected for people to copy each other left and right. Have you ever heard of a man named Shakespeare? Every. Single. Thing. He ever wrote was copying something else. In the modern day, he would be called a "pirate" and sued. Luckily, it wasn't in the modern day, so his classic works were able to get made.

Heck, have you ever heard of a company called Disney? You know, the one famous for wielding copyright like an iron fist, even though they themselves are most famous for copying others over and over again? If not being copied is a "natural right", Disney, one of the modern champions of copyright, is doing wrong by daring to copy Cinderella, Snow White, Hamlet, The Jungle Book, and everything else they've copied. And how very well dare people distribute copies of Shakespeare's work, or the Bible, or 源氏物語, or anything else that isn't still copyrighted (or was never copyrighted to begin with) without tracking down the distant ancestors of these long-dead authors and asking for permission?
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Re: Why are almost all open source games copycats?

Postby Duion » 02 Nov 2017, 18:20

Just because people get away with it, does not prove that it is right or moral and it does not prove anything else than that some people are criminals.
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Re: Why are almost all open source games copycats?

Postby Julius » 02 Nov 2017, 18:58

Duion {l Wrote}:Just because people get away with it, does not prove that it is right or moral and it does not prove anything else than that some people are criminals.


Please read again what the others have been writing... take a few moments to think... and then you will realize that you didn't understand the point people were making at all.

I know discussions can be sometimes heated... but if you don't even take 5 minutes to understand the other's persons point, it is better not to reply at all.

Consider this a warning as you are very close to getting banned from the forum again
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Re: Why are almost all open source games copycats?

Postby Duion » 02 Nov 2017, 19:03

Banned for what? For not understanding a non existant point someone made?
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Re: Why are almost all open source games copycats?

Postby dulsi » 02 Nov 2017, 19:08

Copyright is generally for a limited time. It's intended to encourage producing new creative works by offering a limited period of exclusive commercial use. After that it enters the public domain so that it can enjoyed by all. (Granted we keep pushing extensions so how limited it is now is questionable.)

As for clones, Duion's opinion is unmanageable. So many games copy from each other, either everything is a clone or very limited changes make something unique. Even if many open source games start as clones, they generally grow to have new features and don't try to perfectly clone everything.
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Re: Why are almost all open source games copycats?

Postby Duion » 02 Nov 2017, 19:26

dulsi {l Wrote}:Even if many open source games start as clones, they generally grow to have new features and don't try to perfectly clone everything.

Most if not all of them do not even make it to the same quality level as the original, which is quite pathetic in many cases considering the original is like 10-20 years old and technology has progressed vastly in that time.
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Re: Why are almost all open source games copycats?

Postby charlie » 02 Nov 2017, 20:08

Duion {l Wrote}:Banned for what? For not understanding a non existant point someone made?

I would imagine the ban would be for antagonizing conversation rather than engaging in it. The tone is combative, you dodge rebuttals that conflict with your world view that you don't seem able to refute, and you assert opinions as facts. If you poke the bee's nest with a stick then eventually you get stung.
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